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Old 03-19-2007, 10:04 PM   #151
DH
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Which is why you shouldn't do them in the first place. Leather and canvas settles allot of doubts and questions. Or we can do Aikido, or push hands
MMA can be both a great equalizer or a sifter... of men and their opinions.

One line drive by's won't help much on that day. Neither will your opinions. But since you seem to be strong on them -come prove your point. Dinners on me. Show me what I'm doing wrong. And again pick a format
MMA, push hands, or straight Aikido
Come play and prove this method is flawed. It will help in the discussion more than drive bys. We can experiment to help others using you in person instead of in keyboard. I promise I'll make you laugh and have you smiling in no time
When you coming?

Last edited by DH : 03-19-2007 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:41 PM   #152
David Orange
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Not to get all picky or anything, but many students received such a scroll -- Tomiki, Mochizuki, Yonekawa, Shirata, Shioda, Kunigoshi, Yukawa and I'm sure plenty of others. Many of them remarked later that they didn't think they were important or didn't understand what they were at the time. Ms. Kunigoshi said that at the time she thought that hers was just some kind of notes.
No, what I'm talking about only Tomiki and Mochizuki received.

No one would mistake these scrolls for "notes." They're the official transmission scrolls of daito ryu. Of course, if you have some citation that anyone else got them, I'd be glad to review it.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 03-20-2007, 01:35 AM   #153
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Are you serious? What do you think a mokuroku is? Rhetorical question as it is literally a list, catalogue, inventory, index.

The easy answer for me would be to tell you to look in the index of "Aikido Masters" for Mokuroku -- pages 98, 145, 151, 178, 247, 248. Should be easy to find it's next after Mochizuki.

For the benefit of all, though, I'll type out some of the most relevant from page 247:
Quote:
Takako Kunigoshi (illustrator of "Budo Renshu")
The first thing I received was a scroll called a mokuroku. Ueshiba sensei said to me, 'Actually I should copy this out and give it to you, but I don't have any time so please take mine and write it yourself.' I wrote out everything and when I told Sensei that I had finished he told me to write my name. I wrote my own name and all Ueshiba sensei did was affix his seal. So I have a scroll which I copied out myself. If I were asked just what the scroll meant I guess we could say it was the equivalent to some dan grading... When I was training, though, there was nothing like dan grades...

Intr. -- I see. Was the scroll you received like this one?

Yes, this is the one.

Intr. -- It is definitely the first level scroll. It's called the hiden mokuroku.

...at that time I didn't consider it to be a kind of certification or diploma. I thought it was something like a set of notes. I didn't pay particular attention to writing it.

-Doug Walker
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:43 AM   #154
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Um Doug - I don't think David was talking about the hiden mokuroku.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:56 AM   #155
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Hi Peter, does this thing have a name? It would really help the discussion as the hiden mokuroku is a DR scroll.

-Doug Walker
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Old 03-20-2007, 02:15 AM   #156
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Hi Peter, does this thing have a name? It would really help the discussion as the hiden mokuroku is a DR scroll.
It's a lower level DR scroll - I assume that he's talking about "goshin yo no te", which was the highest level scroll being given out at the time (the same one that Ueshiba himself got from Takeda).

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-20-2007, 08:26 AM   #157
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

I thought you might find these interesting in regards to a Chinese Martial artists experience in learning Daito ryu’s internal aspects. Once again, to express the commonalties of all the Asain arts- from an internal point of view. This fellow, like myself, draws corollaries between CMA and Daito ryu and internal body methods. Some of the things he discusses have been brought up by Rob, Mike and I. think of how it can and should relate to the internals of Aikido.
I just thought it valuable hearing it forn someone else to add to any debate or research. Neither Rob, Mike or I know these men. Yet miraculously here they are with the same statements and comparisons.

This is from a Chinese internal martial arts forum
In my opinion Daito ryu is, at it's highest levels, as "internal" as it gets.
Daito ryu basically consists of three types of technique or three methods of using ones own body and manipulating another persons. Jujutsu, (edited) aiki-jujutsu: the relaxation gives the opponent has nothing to push against while the spiralling movements twist and lock up the joints up to the spine.
and then aiki no jutsu:
Taking control of the opponents spine, breaking their root and throwing them using any point of contact. like a hand on the shoulder, a forearm touching an elbow or whatever. a tiny, fast, barely perceptible circle and you get lifted onto your toes and thrown on the ground. i think a lot of it is to do with subtle and rapid manipulation of a persons natural reflexes. (ie their "intent"....i guess i'll write here what i've been thinking about so i can use the word "intent"...: i'm starting to develop an idea of intent as being something which is happening outside of our conscious control most of the time, for example: when eating and trying to observe, i discover that i am chewing but not deciding when to chew, i reach for another bite without thinking about it, my hands and body shift around all over the place, and very interestingly my eyes move by themselves and also in response to sounds/shapes/movements, before i have time to notice. so now i think this is "yi", and although "yi" can be focused and trained, still a lot of it - most of it - will inevitably be going on constantly responding to the infinite and ever-changing external and internal environment. so talking of sensing and manipulating someone elses "yi" can simply mean feeling and manipulating their bodies' natural reactions - and if you're sensitive enough you can then move them around freely while they are basically powerless since their bodies' inbuilt compensation mechanisms are trying to keep or regain their balance with tiny pushes and pulls that are then manipulated to keep them off balance!!!! hahahaha i think i might have got that out in a way which makes sense!)

soooooooooooooooooo ANYWAY! i realized last night that my daito ryu training has had a huge effect on my IMA, especially in what I am working towards.

Then…………………….
in my opinion the aiki no jutsu skills are exactly what should come from taiji or bagua training (or any IMA "whole body" training) - the ability to instantly feel and control the opponents spine/balance/intent from the moment of contact, using any part of the body - if we train with this in mind.

Then…….
Yes the daito ryu stuff i find very very similar to yiquan, believe it or not. the aiki-jujutsu spiralling body methods are pretty bagua-esque. great combinations. i'm looking forward to revisiting the daito ryu methods once i'm stuck into the bagua


Again I bring this here only to -once again- add support for a position of commonalities between the internal skills in all Asian arts. Here is a CMA artist discovering what I have been talking about for ten years on the net. These skills are real and viable in which ever method you choose to use them in. Whether it be CMA, or Daito ryu or Aikido. The internals are the engine. WIthout them you have an external shell dependant on technique only. Which does work mind you. MMA is proof enough of that. But MMA an virtually anything else- can be improved with these skills.
Once we can get Aikido folks past all this naysaying-they can move forward and empower their own Aikido greatly with Internal skills which were and are the source of what the art was meant to be in the first place.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-20-2007 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:32 AM   #158
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Once we can get Aikido folks past all this naysaying-they can move forward and empower their own Aikido greatly with Internal skills which were and are the source of what the art was meant to be in the first place.
Dan,
Who is naysaying? I certainly am not. I'm on record consistently in agreement with you about this.

I think we past the point in the discussion in which you have to "sell" the idea that Daito Ryu has elements in this training which develops these skills and that O-Sensei probably developed at least the Foundation of his internal skill by doing Daito Ryu.

The issue whether, as Ellis maintains, O-Sensei's skill increased after his exposure to the Omotokyo exercises is a good discussion. It seems likely to me as additional training tends to layer on top of whatever one has done before and things continue to change in interesting ways. Certainly, the Omotokyo training changed how he thought about his Daito Ryu training... that's what led to his moving in his own direction.

But I simply see no substantial or informed resistance to the ideas you are putting out there. O-Sensei had the skills. I think we are in pretty much complete agreement that he did not get these by simply doing waza or running around in circles taking ukemi. If anyone disagrees, then let them say why, with countless Aikido practitioners out there putting in decades of what has passed for conventional training, don't we see these skills widely developed? The answer is clear, no amount of simply doing conventional training will accomplish this. I believe that this is what you have been saying and I think that it is clear that you are correct.

The issue at this point is how we develop a system of training which systematically incorporates the exercises designed to develop internal power into our Aikido practice? We've bought the concept, now it down to the "how to" part. And, in terms of the forums, apparently we can't get there. Both you and Mike have consistently said that it has to be experienced and can't effectively be described, at least in a way that would be of much help.

I think you and Mike have done the Aikido folks a great service (however diplomatically at times) in raising their consciousness. I see a huge shift in progress in which people start to look for opportunities to get this exposure. People who have these skills will be in increasing demand on the seminar circuit, folks will be seeking them out and bringing what they learn back in to their Aikido.

I think that this process could be accelerated if perhaps someone like Jun or Stan Pranin could organize an event or two in which the emphasis was on this type of training. Perhaps the organizers of various Aikido events might be willing to include some training in this area in their camps or seminars, just as Ikeda Sensei has been bringing Ushiro Sensei to the Rocky Mountain Summer camp to broaden our perspectives.

Anyway, however it goes, I think that the need to "sell" the program is over. I really don't see who is in disagreement with you on this.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:53 AM   #159
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Greetings All,

On March 18, in the e-budo thread entitled Decline of truly effective Aikido?, at http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=23:, we find
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I've come back and begun to practice Aikido again after a long absence. In my entire experience with it, Mudansha to shihan, I've not been impressed.
I will be around over the next few years, here and there, showing up at seminars to train with teachers and people who have made themselves a presence on the net just to do Aikido with them. To see what's out there.
I want to see if it's changed any in all these years.
I am sure that many of us look forward to hearing more specific details on which seminars you plan to attend. I hope you will provide us with enough notice so that we may meet.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:30 AM   #160
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is from a Chinese internal martial arts forum
[b][i]In my opinion Daito ryu is, at it's highest levels, as "internal" as it gets.
Daito ryu basically consists of three types of technique or three methods of using ones own body and manipulating another persons. Jujutsu, (edited) aiki-jujutsu: the relaxation gives the opponent has nothing to push against while the spiralling movements twist and lock up the joints up to the spine.
and then aiki no jutsu:
Taking control of the opponents spine, breaking their root and throwing them using any point of contact. like a hand on the shoulder, a forearm touching an elbow or whatever. a tiny, fast, barely perceptible circle and you get lifted onto your toes and thrown on the ground. i think a lot of it is to do with subtle and rapid manipulation of a persons natural reflexes. (ie their "intent"....i guess i'll write here what i've been thinking about so i can use the word "intent"...: i'm starting to develop an idea of intent as being something which is happening outside of our conscious control most of the time, for example: when eating and trying to observe, i discover that i am chewing but not deciding when to chew, i reach for another bite without thinking about it, my hands and body shift around all over the place, and very interestingly my eyes move by themselves and also in response to sounds/shapes/movements, before i have time to notice. so now i think this is "yi", and although "yi" can be focused and trained, still a lot of it - most of it - will inevitably be going on constantly responding to the infinite and ever-changing external and internal environment. so talking of sensing and manipulating someone elses "yi" can simply mean feeling and manipulating their bodies' natural reactions - and if you're sensitive enough you can then move them around freely while they are basically powerless since their bodies' inbuilt compensation mechanisms are trying to keep or regain their balance with tiny pushes and pulls that are then manipulated to keep them off balance!!!!
This is an exact description of the training we have received in Daito ryu Roppokai. I am a bit surprised because I have never related anything that Dan is saying to this. I will say that I do not claim to know anything about Daito ryu Roppokai being a novice after two years. They are a bit secretive and seminars are closed except to students. They have higher level techniques they do not reveal to the public and I have already typed enough here to warrant an email from my Sempai. I will say that I have always thought that Okamoto Seigo could have a complete second career doing only Aikido Seminars. Aikido people would love him and they would only see things they have never seen before. .

Jorge

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Old 03-20-2007, 10:44 AM   #161
DH
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Hi George
Just quick I have to get back to work.
I'm not so sure you get what I have been saying (selling? nice ) all these years.
Everyone thinks because I strongly advocate a position FOR Daito ryu's historical role in Ueshiba-ha Daito ryu. More importantly in his Aiki way that I'm a Daito ryu guy. And I'm not. I see what I see. I don't care WHO is right, I care WHAT is right. Stan blew up up the technical fallacy foisted on the early students but he coudn't address the power and internal skills because he doesn't know them. So we had everyone now "corrected" about the techncial syllabus go on tol spout the same crap about the internals. Once again minimizing Takeda's role almost to nothin, to the point of evern denying Daito ryu has any internal skills. So for me reading all this in the last year was -SSDD.

So....whenI read Ueshiba "created" this power by adding "other things after. I say its bullshit. Ueshiba was a Daito ryu man through and through. His method is Aiki-no-jutsu exrpessed in a more gentle manner. Period. His sudden "spurt" was as explicable as Shioda's. They both, at a point in their careers, had the higher evel stuff shown to them and they got it......spurt.
That point is not widely accepted, at all.
The only difference is how he "expressed it and his Ukes responded. That is a choice of finishing, not the art. CMA internal methods will work just fine but historically it wasn't CMA internal methods that created Ueshiba at all. It was DR's.

Point two is that that doing waza ain't ever gonna get you there in anything and they teachers were and are holding out on us. I think your right on that we now agree there as well. I'm not a waza guy I long left the wrst grabs and Shomens behind for MMA so I can't really address it anymore.

How to fix Aikido?
Well, I'm confused here. As recently as yesterdy Mike Haft tells me this stuff is "all over the place in Aikido." So, what are those-who have slammed Mike, Rob and I,and told us flaltly that these things are, after all this, already in your art gonna do about it?
Are you gonna demand your teachers teach?
Are you gonne look em in the eye and say "I don't wanna wreck my body anymore-where's the beef?"
What?
I'd say why would you need Mike or me or Rob...at all?

We pointed out some facts.

It needs to be taught in small groups. Seems those who got up off their asses and went to feel it all have said-at least to our faces-they have not felt anything as good IN aikido but it is most assuredly AIkido and needed in the art.

Last up. Rob and Mike can speak for themselves. I was critisized stronger them most and non-directly called a liar... yeah me. I have never received an single apology, nor even a begrudging acknowledgement for stepping up. Thats fine, its not needed nor asked for. But when I couple that behaviour with the letters I have recieved from Aikido's own teachers warning me about the smiles to my face and the backstabing it goes along way to solidifying Mikes point about the passive/ agressive personalites so prevelent in Aikido.
I'm going to be "drawn" to help these folks -enmasse-exactly why?

I am teaching small groups of Aikido people who seem to be sincere. It doesn't hurt my primary role of husband and dad. So I am helping.
Selling? Well I can at least say I -honestly- care for those who ask and I -actually- teach what I am talking about....and that.... for free.
I care more for those who were like me, But who were not as fortunate. they came honestly seeking and were lied to and held back from and were sorted out to play a roll and wreck their bodies hoping to reach the carrot...firmly held out of reach by a smiling teacher.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:31 AM   #162
David Orange
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Are you serious? What do you think a mokuroku is? Rhetorical question as it is literally a list, catalogue, inventory, index.
Doug,

You are correct in that Ueshiba O-Sensei did give "scrolls" to other people than Mochizuki and Tomiki, but my point is that Mochizuki was recognized by daito ryu as a master of the system. I have a nice booklet produced by the daito ryu for a major celebration (maybe the 50th anniversary of Sokaku's death). This booklet shows Sokaku, Tokimune, Hisa, Ueshiba and a few other direct students of Sokaku's---and Minoru Mochizuki among very few others.

And the point of that is that, whatever Ueshiba gave Mochizuki, it wasn't lacking much. There is also a video of the demo at the 50th Anniversary of Sokaku's death, and Minoru Mochizuki is one of about six demonstrators. So it's not like there was some gulf between his aikido and the daito ryu.

And the point of all that is that Mochizuki was a firm believer in the traditional transmission of the inner secrets through the outer techniques. While he trained with Kano, Mifune and Toku in ju-jutsu, Shiina in katori shinto ryu, and Funakoshi in karate, as well as many other great masters of Japanese budo before the war, he kept Ueshiba's picture on the wall of his dojo. And while he also had a picture of Kano (Ueshiba and Kano on either side of his kamiza), he had a driftwood dragon head IN the kamiza representing Ueshiba.

And Ueshiba said, basically, "the secrets are all right there in the omote waza."

But since the omote of aiki is the ura of everything else, of course, the secrets of everything else would be on the surface of aikido.

The problem is to look at them correctly: to know what you're looking at, to begin with; then to know how to look--not attempting to do the techniques "harder" but how to see to their microscopic levels, which cannot be found anywhere but inside yourself.

My ultimate point in my earlier post was to say that, following the traditional method to its ultimate end produces the desired result. But in the modern world, the real traditional way is pretty well inaccessible. So my approach is to go the microscopic way and try to find it from inside myself, which is why I do want to meet up with Dan and see what he's doing.

Best wishes.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 03-20-2007, 12:15 PM   #163
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

David, thanks, I get that thanks to you and Chris giving the name of the scroll. I just read "scroll" in you original post and my brain said that's not true. So really it was the scroll thing and not anything else in your posts. I don't have any problem with the rest other than personal interpretation stuff.

This does bring up a feeling that I've had for a long time that there was some contact over the years (50s, 60s, 70s) between the DR and at least some in aikido that would have acknowledged their shared heritage. This during the years when the outside story from the aikikai honbu was DR is dead/unimportant.

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Old 03-20-2007, 12:23 PM   #164
Mike Sigman
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I thought you might find these interesting in regards to a Chinese Martial artists experience in learning Daito ryu's internal aspects.
Quote:
Unknown CMA'er wrote:
"intent"...: i'm starting to develop an idea of intent as being something which is happening outside of our conscious control most of the time, for example: when eating and trying to observe, i discover that i am chewing but not deciding when to chew,....
Dan, someone who is that unclear about what "intent" is should not be indicated as a "CMA" representative able to compare Daito Ryu to CMA's. It's a bit like someone in Aikido or DR being clueless about the skills in "ki", yet voicing an opinion on Taiji, ne c'est pas?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 03-20-2007, 12:48 PM   #165
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
The issue at this point is how we develop a system of training which systematically incorporates the exercises designed to develop internal power into our Aikido practice? [[snipsky]] I think that this process could be accelerated if perhaps someone like Jun or Stan Pranin could organize an event or two in which the emphasis was on this type of training.
Hi George:

I really don't think it's much of a matter of "how we develop a system", in reality, nor do I think it's going to be a matter of an event or two under the auspices of Jun or Stan.

Although some aspects of the jin/kokyu skills can be taught fairly rapidly, the general corpus of information is too broad to comfortably fit into a particular "emphasis" in one or two seminars. I've tried to say it before that shifting over to this way of movement involves a pretty radical re-coordination of movement. Only the dedicated are going to do it and of those, only a few will go the Full Monte and not drop off at some muscular, showy levels of skill ability.

Ted Ehara made an interesting comment the other day to the effect that one of the now-dropped Ki Breathing exercises in the early Tohei books came from O-Sensei. That's interesting because, as I'd noted in an earlier thread, that particular method was a recognizable part of a power gong. I.e., this facet of Aikido will by necessity need to go into power gongs, jin/kokyu manipulation, and a few other things, in order to be more than a lick and a promise. I suspect that in reality this sort of stuff is only going to be the purview of a limited few in the current generation of Aikido and won't come to fruition until the next generation. It means that, like Ikeda Sensei does in his relationship with Ushiro, this needs to be viewed as more than a matter of a couple of seminars worth of focus.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:25 PM   #166
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi George:

I really don't think it's much of a matter of "how we develop a system", in reality, nor do I think it's going to be a matter of an event or two under the auspices of Jun or Stan.

Although some aspects of the jin/kokyu skills can be taught fairly rapidly, the general corpus of information is too broad to comfortably fit into a particular "emphasis" in one or two seminars. I've tried to say it before that shifting over to this way of movement involves a pretty radical re-coordination of movement. Only the dedicated are going to do it and of those, only a few will go the Full Monte and not drop off at some muscular, showy levels of skill ability.

Ted Ehara made an interesting comment the other day to the effect that one of the now-dropped Ki Breathing exercises in the early Tohei books came from O-Sensei. That's interesting because, as I'd noted in an earlier thread, that particular method was a recognizable part of a power gong. I.e., this facet of Aikido will by necessity need to go into power gongs, jin/kokyu manipulation, and a few other things, in order to be more than a lick and a promise. I suspect that in reality this sort of stuff is only going to be the purview of a limited few in the current generation of Aikido and won't come to fruition until the next generation. It means that, like Ikeda Sensei does in his relationship with Ushiro, this needs to be viewed as more than a matter of a couple of seminars worth of focus.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike Sigman
I didn't mean to imply that there was any quick fix. What I meant to say that the process of getting an increasing number of people started on some sort of systematic program would be accelerated if there were some larger events in which people started to see what this training entails and what the benefits are.

If it's left to individual teachers scattered around the country to decide to incorporate these new ideas into their training, it will be a long time before things in general will take a jump upward, quality wise. Things need to reach a sort of critical momentum before large scale shifts are seen.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:31 PM   #167
DH
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

George
Why wouldn't that best be accomplished on a small scale?
What physical model shows otherwise? The boys next door to you can testify to that. It's hard to cast a big net with something that needs one-on-one training. Why not teach teachers that you know will actually teach and share and be able to coach? The relationship is already in place. It might involve less running around for everyone.
I've wondered about Ikeda's goals and model? What is his folllow up with Ushiro? Did you ask?
Dan
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:51 PM   #168
mjchip
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I didn't mean to imply that there was any quick fix. What I meant to say that the process of getting an increasing number of people started on some sort of systematic program would be accelerated if there were some larger events in which people started to see what this training entails and what the benefits are.

If it's left to individual teachers scattered around the country to decide to incorporate these new ideas into their training, it will be a long time before things in general will take a jump upward, quality wise. Things need to reach a sort of critical momentum before large scale shifts are seen.
This begs a question: How far and how quickly do you actually want to propagate these skills? Should they be accessible to everyone in aikido? How about outside of aikido? How about tennis players, bowlers, javelin throwers, etc.?

Dan? George?

Mark
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:55 PM   #169
Lee Salzman
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Although some aspects of the jin/kokyu skills can be taught fairly rapidly, the general corpus of information is too broad to comfortably fit into a particular "emphasis" in one or two seminars. ...<snip>... It means that, like Ikeda Sensei does in his relationship with Ushiro, this needs to be viewed as more than a matter of a couple of seminars worth of focus.
That point is worth elaborating on. Who teaches the teachers? It's not like you can go to your local xingyiquan or baguazhang or random koryu group and have any guarantee of learning the subject matter in question. Many accumulated miles of doing piquan and hours of circle walking on my part later, I became pretty convinced they were just repeating the same, "Just do it for 20 years and you'll figure it out" mantra.

And even when I did get a line on some people, I have also been flat out told, "If you were to spend a month studying directly under <insert one of greatest living practicioners of art here>, you wouldn't learn much of anything." And further, that many of these teachers won't even warm up to you until after you've spent significant time showing your dedication to practice. It was going to have to be a very long-term, on-going relationship.

So after all that, after finding someone who was willing to have an ongoing teaching relationship with me, it's still going to cost me a very significant recurring sum of money in travel/living expenses to somewhere pretty far away.

It's no walk in the park, even if you really really really want to learn from somebody.
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Old 03-20-2007, 02:31 PM   #170
Mike Sigman
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
It's not like you can go to your local xingyiquan or baguazhang or random koryu group and have any guarantee of learning the subject matter in question. Many accumulated miles of doing piquan and hours of circle walking on my part later, I became pretty convinced they were just repeating the same, "Just do it for 20 years and you'll figure it out" mantra. ---snipsky-- It's no walk in the park, even if you really really really want to learn from somebody.
Heh. Exactly. In fact, if you read many things posted by a lot of teachers, they've already got the goods. And as Dan points out, then you meet them......

It's really a crapshoot. "You pays your money, you takes your chances..... step right up folks!" There's not going to be any effective systemization, even though that may be possible (Tohei, in essence, attempted to do just that). I personally see it as something that is going to be difficult to manage successfully for any large group of people.

First of all, even though there are these ongoing discussions and they started, to be fair, with Tohei, there aren't that many people whom anyone can go to for information. If it was that easy, there would not have been as much difficulty in obtaining information as there obviously has been. We don't really know who, if anyone, "has the goods", do we? Tohei has them, it would appear, but could he release power in the way that Ueshiba could do it? I'm not sure, either way. Abe Sensei... same question. Inaba. Sunadomari. Shioda. At the highest level, it's difficult to really say and that will be a conversation for people to puzzle out in the future as skills get more widespread.

Ushiro Sensei? He's got demonstrable jin-skills and undoubtedly a certain amount of the breathing, etc., skills.... but how much does he have and how much of it is congruent with the soft-approach training that Ueshiba had? Any port in a storm, I allus sez, but still, all these things have to be considered. Akuzawa's approach? Dan's approach? Mike's approach? These are all different approaches to the basics and each person has his own skill(s) to show for them, but a consideration of learning the basics versus "how do I mesh this into Aikido" has to go on in peoples' heads. Or at least that would be my caution. The cat is coming out of the bag, but there are all kinds of breeds of cats.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
If it's left to individual teachers scattered around the country to decide to incorporate these new ideas into their training, it will be a long time before things in general will take a jump upward, quality wise. Things need to reach a sort of critical momentum before large scale shifts are seen.
I think many people are into Aikido (and other arts... this will happen in many different arts before it's all said and done) for many different reasons. Many people are into Aikido for more socially-oriented reasons and they're not going to be part of any large-scale shift toward these skills. It's too much trouble and they're not really that motivated. Their schools will continue and their offshoots will founder if and when these changes are made, but only over a period of years. Time passes; things change.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-20-2007, 02:52 PM   #171
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Tohei has them, it would appear, but could he release power in the way that Ueshiba could do it? I'm not sure, either way.
Coming out of retirement for this bit now that the thread has moved. I'm not sure that the release of power you talk about is actually necessary to execute the waza commonly found in aikido. I'd need to spend a loooong time messing with it to begin to have an idea for sure and I'm mostly guessing from the point of view of my experience, but I think that it would be fair to say that if Tohei didn't have it, it's because he didn't train for it because he didn't need it. Whether it is actually needed to execute effective aikido waza is an entirely different and distinct debate and is related to other issues raised around here.

It would certainly chime a chord with Tohei saying that he only kept 30% of the techniques. Maybe he couldn't make the other 70% work without it? Who knows....

Regards

Mike

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Old 03-20-2007, 03:13 PM   #172
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Mark Chiappetta wrote: View Post
This begs a question: How far and how quickly do you actually want to propagate these skills? Should they be accessible to everyone in aikido? How about outside of aikido? How about tennis players, bowlers, javelin throwers, etc.?
The latter aren't marketed as 'internal', so probably not. It is a great question though, especially since a few theorists put such emphasis on utterly trivial things called 'vectors', which are part of all movement everywhere in every subject.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-20-2007, 03:43 PM   #173
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I thought you might find these interesting in regards to a Chinese Martial artists experience in learning Daito ryu's internal aspects. Once again, to express the commonalties of all the Asain arts- from an internal point of view. ....

Daito ryu basically consists of three types of technique or three methods of using ones own body and manipulating another persons. Jujutsu, (edited) aiki-jujutsu: the relaxation gives the opponent has nothing to push against while the spiralling movements twist and lock up the joints up to the spine.
and then aiki no jutsu:
Taking control of the opponents spine, breaking their root and throwing them using any point of contact. like a hand on the shoulder, a forearm touching an elbow or whatever. a tiny, fast, barely perceptible circle and you get lifted onto your toes and thrown on the ground.
So glad, Dan, to see you coming over to my way of seeing things ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-20-2007, 03:50 PM   #174
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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The latter aren't marketed as 'internal', so probably not. It is a great question though, especially since a few theorists put such emphasis on utterly trivial things called 'vectors', which are part of all movement everywhere in every subject.
Dude, do you have ANYTHING to contribute??

Ron

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Old 03-21-2007, 05:07 PM   #175
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Dude, do you have ANYTHING to contribute??
Do you have a specific point you wanted to raise? I'm not sure how to respond to a general complaint.

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