Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-13-2007, 07:44 AM   #26
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Jun,
Why don't you just create an "Internal Mechanics" Forum?

It's not about Aikido, or Chen style, Wu Style, Long Dong Style, Silat, Karate, Hakyokuken, Taikyokuken, Akitaken,Miyagiken, etc.

The way I see it, we only have two arms, two legs, a head, so there's only so many ways you can come up with efficient movement.

The only people caught up in the trappings of style and reigi are the mediocre ones.
(Counting through just japanese examples lets see...the Prez of Honda, Oda Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, Ieyasu(damn, that's three in a row ), Takeda Soukaku, Ueshiba (someone correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe he pissed off Takeda at some point), Sagawa (but he was a cranky geezer to begin with), Musashi etc etc etc.

"Then why not just take your "#$t to another board?"
Well, because it seems the discussions and debate are happening right here, right now. Frankly if it weren't for your board we wouldn't be airing out the dirty laundry <so to speak> like we are now.
If it weren't for you and your board we wouldn't have had a lot of these get togethers, and some people might not have had the inspriations they've had as a result of what's come to pass so far.

摩擦は進歩の母だよ;)
Masatsu ha sinpo no haha dayo.
 
Old 03-13-2007, 07:53 AM   #27
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I think its good that the frustration comes out and people argue. The only people that drop out with a huff are people that weren't really driven to find what they don't have, or they already got all the goods and they stand back to have a good laugh at us teenageers bickering amongst ourselves
Somehow I find the latter less likely.

Its all in good fun, even if you get the occasional w"#$"ker like... oh wait I'm supposed to keep it clean, so I'll refrain from posting names
So nice of you to refrain from posting my name.
I too think it's a good thing that the frustration comes out. Once that's out of the way one can begin learning.
 
Old 03-13-2007, 09:15 AM   #28
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
So nice of you to refrain from posting my name.
I too think it's a good thing that the frustration comes out. Once that's out of the way one can begin learning.
Believe it or not I wasn't referring to you at all
You give yourself too much credit

The guy I was referring to begins with a "J" ends with...
oops given away too much already
 
Old 03-13-2007, 09:25 AM   #29
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Why don't you just create an "Internal Mechanics" Forum?
Thank you for your suggestion. For now, I will keep things the way they are currently.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 03-13-2007, 03:02 PM   #30
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,191
Online
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Hi Cady and Mary -

Actually, it was my wife who came up with the "school-girl" reference. She was reading over my shoulder the other day - one of these threads that have led to this solution and she said, "Ellis, why is it that all these big tough martial artists talk to and about each other like a bunch of junior high school girls?"
I replied, " - - - - - - - - - -Uh - - - ummm"
My thank you was to Jun,
Talking about sexist references is like spitting into the wind...
Mary
 
Old 03-14-2007, 11:13 AM   #31
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Non-Aikido Marital Traditions Forum
(cf. just about the most common typo on martial arts forums).
 
Old 03-14-2007, 11:16 AM   #32
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Hi Thomas,

You made me check...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 03-20-2007, 11:42 AM   #33
Tim Fong
 
Tim Fong's Avatar
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: California
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 175
Offline
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Jun,
It's too bad you decide yet again to move a thread about aikido into the "non-aikido martial traditions" forum.
 
Old 03-20-2007, 12:13 PM   #34
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
It's too bad you decide yet again to move a thread about aikido into the "non-aikido martial traditions" forum.
(For clarity and for reference, Tim is referring to the thread located at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12107)

I appreciate your thoughts, but I disagree with your assessment that the thread in question was about "aikido" as, in my view, the thread's implicit intent was not to discuss the art of aikido. For me, at least, there is a big difference between a subject that may be beneficial to people practicing aikido and the subject of aikido itself.

In any case, I have outlined my thoughts regarding the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum in the first post of this thread.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 03-20-2007, 06:11 PM   #35
mriehle
 
mriehle's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido
Location: Stockton, CA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 320
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

See, I think this is a wonderful idea. I like some of the discussion of non aikido stuff, but too many of them became personal flame wars in recent days. Unfortunately any real information in them was lost to the acrimony.

Some of that, I think, may have been due to the nature of the forums where the discussions occured.

So, I'll be checking out this forum, but now I feel several times more justified in ignoring people who attempt to turn worthwhile discussions into personal vendettas.

 
Old 06-20-2007, 09:56 AM   #36
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Hi folks,

Can you please take discussions not pertaining directly to the formation of the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum outside of this thread? Thanks.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 07-14-2008, 03:05 PM   #37
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

I just noticed this. Call discussions about learning internal skills and aiki non-aikido if you like, but there is no stoppping it...

Here I am an aikido-a-holic for decades, and I am convinced that what Dan Harden is doing in his non-aikido martial tradition is the same aiki as what Gleason sensei does in aikido. I've been promoted to yondan by the same teacher that is Jun's teacher. I teach at 3 ASU aikido schools. I will be teaching a lot of what Dan shows me AS AIKIDO in Jun's own organization - heck even to interested people in his dojo eventually. The bottomline here is that it's happening... No stopping it now. Call it what you like... I just appreciate having a place to discuss things even if they are improperly named.

Rob
 
Old 07-14-2008, 03:28 PM   #38
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Hi Rob,

I do not think things are "inappropriately named" at all. If a discussion centers or is based on a martial tradition other than aikido, regardless of how appropriate such may be in aikido, I am asking that they be discussed in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum. As you write, there is a specific forum for discussions of that nature. I would appreciate it if you could respect my wishes as the owner of this website.

As far as my own training in my own dojo and organization goes, I do not care to go into personal discussions of that nature and I would hope you are able to respect such boundaries yourself. I do not represent my dojo nor organization here on my website and I do not appreciate this odd "appeal to authority" argument that you are posing.

Best,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 07-14-2008, 09:21 PM   #39
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

I wrote "improperly named" not "inappropriately named". Improper just was supposed to send the message that I think you made a mistake. Inappropriate seems to send the message that I think you are making the mistake on purpose os something - which wasn't the intended message. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Jun, of course I respect your opinion as the web site owner. I appreciate your providing the site as a place to discuss aikido to a certain level of depth.

I didn't intend to appeal to authority. I just question why my opinion coming from similar background (which I will no longer discuss - I didn't know it was taboo) is just unilaterally dismissed as wrong. For instance, when I post in the aikido techniques section about kotegaeshi and that post gets put somewhere else that is called non-aikido, I wonder who is anyone to say that my opinion of the depth of an aikido technique - no matter what the source of that opinion is - is not aikido. My aikido teacher seems to agree that the aiki I'm learning from alternative sources is the same aiki in aikido.

People discuss aikido insights that they got from training BJJ and MMA and that doesn't get ripped out of the forums and placed in non-aikido martial traditions thread do they?

Will I live with such decisions? Sure. I guess I kind of wonder here something like if you don't want feedback about such things, why there is a section in the forum for feedback about the subject in the first place.

Regardless, I'll drop it. My opinion is that more and more people will see things my way and things will work themselves out.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-14-2008 at 09:26 PM.
 
Old 07-14-2008, 10:59 PM   #40
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

I thought it was quite clear...
Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Can you please take discussions not pertaining directly to the formation of the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum outside of this thread?
A simple request really... and in keeping with the thrust of the first post of this thread.

I think Ellis's post #12 quite eloquently says it all. So, to prevent further misunderstandings, perhaps this thread should be locked, as any further discussion regarding the formation of the NAMT forum is moot.

Ignatius
 
Old 07-14-2008, 11:43 PM   #41
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Thanks Jun.

Now I can talk about automatic weapons employment without any guilt.

William Hazen
 
Old 07-15-2008, 05:32 AM   #42
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
I thought it was quite clear...

A simple request really... and in keeping with the thrust of the first post of this thread.

I think Ellis's post #12 quite eloquently says it all. So, to prevent further misunderstandings, perhaps this thread should be locked, as any further discussion regarding the formation of the NAMT forum is moot.
geeze fine... what was unclear is why my opinion of "directly" related to aikido suddenly was wrong.

I kind of got the feeling over the years that THE most offensive thing you could do on aikiweb was tell someone that they weren't doing "aikido" at all.

I've so far stated that about 1 teacher - took hell for it (not from Jun), and didn't back down becuase the world should know when a 3rd kyu claims 8th dan and hangs a shingle.

I'm not saying the people not learning aiki in a more direct way are not doing aikido - just approaching it slower like I did for decades.

Honestly, I was just at a knife combat class with Gleason sensei - and you won't see me writing how that IS aikido. I have a fairly good idea based on lots of real hard work and experience what is aikido and what is non-aikido.

That amount of life-effort into something, when shared, and then dismissed as "non-aikido" sends kind of a invalidating feeling as opposed to being "all huffy" as Ellis discussed in your favorite post there, Ignatius. But to be honest I would have been a lot happier with Ellis's idea in calling it the "Popular Body Mechanics" forum or even "unpopular body mechanics" forum - basically anything not unilaterally dismissing what I am teaching as aikido in my aikido class as non-aikido.

Rob
 
Old 07-15-2008, 05:52 AM   #43
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 875
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Rob,
Maybe you now have a deeper appreciation for what Galileo had to face!
 
Old 07-15-2008, 06:21 AM   #44
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I kind of got the feeling over the years that THE most offensive thing you could do on aikiweb was tell someone that they weren't doing "aikido" at all.
I have a fairly good idea based on lots of real hard work and experience what is aikido and what is non-aikido.
- basically anything not unilaterally dismissing what I am teaching as aikido in my aikido class as non-aikido.
Rob
I am mindful of a really great line from a really bad film Shogun When the Daimyo (himself planning to take over Japan as Shogun) asks the pirate Captain.
"When is rebellion not considered a crime?"
"When you win."
"Yes" smiles the soon to be Shogun. "That is the correct answer. When you win."


1988 Ueshiba family states he trained in many Koryu to make Aikido and "he did a little Daito ryu too.
2008 I thought everybody knew it was from Daito ryu. His first dojo was ONLY doing Daito ryu. Oh.... you must mean in the old days when people didn't know Ueshiba studied nothing in depth BUT Daito ryu

so now we have
2003 What is aiki? What is ki? What do you mean it was lost? It's in Daito ryu?? Its in Taiji?? Its the same stuff Ueshiba did and aikido people don't know it?? What??
Grand debates, fights, testing, meet-ups and revelations on a grand scale led to
2008 What was called untrue is already being trained by several teachers in Aikido, all of whom apparently think it was and is the aiki in aikido all along.

2020? "What? I thought everybody knew this was aiki"....
Oh You must mean in the old days when Aikido people didn't know how to train Aiki.

Because it is so profound, aiki training is simply going to change the face of aikido as it is currently known. No one having felt it will not want to learn it. It was aikido, it will be aikido again.


In the mean time we are guests in someone elses house.
Thems the rules. Play nice.
Here's a thought. This stuff is outragously controversial. So many forums have tried to squelch it as it is pissing off the rank and file who haven't got it and cannot defend against the 'in your face" truth it reveals.
Jun gave it a home. That aint bad.

Last edited by DH : 07-15-2008 at 06:33 AM.
 
Old 07-15-2008, 06:40 AM   #45
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 178
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Since someone else re-opened this topic, I have some thoughts I would like to discuss.

Over the last year since the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum was started, I've gone back and forth on whether I think Daito-ryu should be considered "Non-Aikido" (or whether Aikido should be considered "Non-Daito-ryu"). But as time has gone by, I've started to feel straight-jacketed a bit by the distinction.

For the record, I've been training Daito-ryu (Hakuho-ryu, specifically) for about a year and a half. The longer I train, the more I see similarities between the two. I think the (technical) differences between Daito-ryu and Aikido are often exaggerated---especially given the wide spectrum of Aikido styles out there. I think the differences are exaggerated because: a) people are unfamiliar with Daito-ryu and/or have misperceptions about it, or b) various people and groups (on both sides) have a political interest in keeping the two separate.

I don't think the technical difference is necessarily any greater than the difference between the various Aikido branches. They all utilize different strategies and training methods. Some schools/styles are hardcore martial, some utterly "spiritual". Some are more circular, some more linear. Some include internal training, some don't. Various styles have also incorporated techniques and strategies from other arts (most notably the Shodokan and the Yoseikan). Etc, etc.

The "spirit" or "culture" of Daito-ryu is definitely different, but is that a big enough difference to separate the discussion? The big stumbling block I see---besides unfamiliarity of Daito-ryu, in general---is that the curriculum of Daito-ryu is a lot different from Aikido. So I admit that communication between the two groups might be a bit labored.

But I think the "General" forum would benefit a lot from Daito-ryu discussion, if for nothing else, for the fact that Daito-ryu provides a historical context for Aikido.

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
 
Old 07-15-2008, 07:00 AM   #46
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 178
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

I'll add one more thing to my above comments. I admit that "Daito-ryu" sometimes gets thrown around casually by people who haven't---I believe---actually studied Daito-ryu. That sometimes annoys me, as I can tell they are acting on their (? mis-)perception of Daito-ryu, rather than actual experience. And it is, of course, an abuse when individuals try and use Daito-ryu as an authority over Aikido. One isn't "better" than the other, they're just different.

So while I admit that stuff goes on, I don't think that's reason to separate the discussion.

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
 
Old 07-15-2008, 08:23 AM   #47
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Non-Aikido Martial Traditions.

In a world where various aikido groups have argued what constituted "Aikido", it isn't really too far a stretch to place some of our conversations in this forum.

In a world where quite a few people said, I know what you're doing, we do that, too. And then when these people felt it directly, they found it was different and it wasn't what they were doing. To the aikido world, that can translate as "non-aikido". Even though these people noted that it constituted the higher levels of aikido.

When the people advocating aiki have training backgrounds in Daito ryu and Taiji, it isn't a far stretch to have those conversations in a "non-aikido" forum.

Dan, Mike, Timothy, Rob, Ron, Ellis, and I have all experienced things first hand. Jun has not. Do not disparage those who have not yet had the chance that we were given. And do not disparage the decisions those people make, because they certainly do not have the same experiences we do ... yet. (I'm certainly hoping they get the chance.)

While I believe that the aiki we talk about should be the driving force for aikido, it is not yet a recognized or accepted idea. Sometimes things change slowly. And in that, Jun has given us an area for discussions and there have been some very good discussions in the "non-aikido" forum. Jun changed aikiweb and gave us this forum. We should be thankful for that. I am. To me, whether I talk about this in a "non-aikido" forum or an "aikido" forum, the truth of the matter is there for those that want to read it. For those that don't, it will hopefully be archived for when they decide it is important to them. For some, it never will be.

What makes aikido, aikido? I'm sure that will always be something of an argument. Having a place to discuss with other aikido people Daito ryu aiki in relation to aikido, Taiji skills in relation to aikido, aikido(tm) to aiki...do, the aiki of the martial world, the body skills, the usage of aiki in any venue, etc etc is more important to me than what forum label it falls under. And Jun has graciously provided that.

Thank you, Jun.

Mark
 
Old 07-15-2008, 09:21 AM   #48
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Mark
I'm pretty much in agreement with you there. Stop and think of that statement "Jun changed aikiweb to allow for discussions of it."
Anyone want to add a "WOW!"
Has anyone seen the heavy-handed moderating with transparently clear bias and agendas on other boards?
It’s going to be tough for guys like Rob who teach at three dojos and sees this training as an absolute in his Aikido. He stands alone among all the guys who tried training this way with me, He may even stand alone nationally for an aikido teacher with three dojos who is training this way not at yearly seminars- but somewhat regularly, who is also in a position to immediately effect aikido, and change training to accent aiki as he may see fit, or as he and his teacher sees fit.
Long sentence to state he is somewhat unique at this phase of the game in reaching out to get it and bring it back in. I don't know how often Ikeda is out there with another teacher just training aiki. Now that I am on that topic. There is another guy Ikeda. He greatly outrankes Rob and has more students, but by his own admission the training he is getting from Ushiro is aiki for use in his aikido. So the sources are not just Daito ryu, and Taiji but from Karate as well. Which kind of makes the whole point-pointless. It's all related, so what is not aikido/DR/Karate/Taiji/ Asian arts?

Aikidoka talking about Aiki...do
As he sees his body change and his ability to mainfest aiki grow-he is natrually going to want to talk about it. I see him as a bit of an experiment for what may happen in aikido. That's probably why he feels a sense of right to talk about what he sees, and what he is doing in three dojo teaching Aikido. I've actually never talked with him about this issue-we're to busy when I see him, so if I misunderstood you Rob my apologies.


I feel compelled to add that Jun has gone after me for my posting style many times, but he has stuck with me as I tried to soften my approach. To me that alone speaks volumes of his moderating and tolerence.
I thought long and hard about how to frame that "Aikido and aiki...do where are we at" thread. for just reason-respect
I think Juns point is precise though.
a) Talk about aiki training in context of aikido, how it relates, in the larger forums.
b) Talk about where it came from or how it used in other arts in the Non-Aikido forum.
I think that’s pretty clear.

Last edited by DH : 07-15-2008 at 09:33 AM.
 
Old 07-15-2008, 09:53 AM   #49
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Seconded, with the exception that we have no idea what Jun has or has not felt, and he has specifically asked that his privacy be respected.

Jun have been very gracious...let's just leave it at that until he says otherwise.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 07-15-2008, 10:22 AM   #50
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

We simply have that issue about "Reticence and Agreement".

I am fully ware that it is Jun's website and I AM THANKFUL.

Jun's opinion of what things are called here is ultimately authoritative. I believe that is is fair to say that owning a website does not mean his opinion of what is aikido and what is non-aikido is ultimately authoritative in general. - There is a difference. And having such a successfull worked wide forum, there is some amount of responsibility.

No one - not even Dan is saying Dan does aikido. But I think it's a bit much to say I am discussing non-aikido when I apply something *I learned from* non-aikido to AIKIDO. Plenty of other names for the forum where suggested which would avoid such a problem.

Otherwise, it kind of leaves me feeling like: so am I the head instructor of "shobu non-aikido of connecticut" now?

I am not looking to demand my changes. I just wanted to be heard in a feedback thread about something that bothered me and was asking for consideration on the matter in my rather blunt way.

No hard feelings.
Rob
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center? ChrisMoses Training 130 03-17-2007 03:21 PM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 10:43 AM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:05 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate