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Old 03-11-2007, 04:06 PM   #1
akiy
 
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"Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Dear AikiWeb Members,

I have just created a new Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum in the AikiWeb Forums.

Please direct all discussions on martial traditions not specifically regarding aikido into this forum. This includes topics based on "aiki" concepts rooted outside of aikido proper, discussions which rely upon non-aikido jargon, and threads otherwise focusing on non-aikido martial traditions. Both the explicit content as well as the implicit intent of each topic will be considered.

I ask for your cooperation in moving and starting discussions of these kinds to the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum from now on; please respect these wishes as a part of your responsibiliy in participating in the AikiWeb community.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 03-12-2007, 08:29 AM   #2
MM
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Dear AikiWeb Members,

I have just created a new Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum in the AikiWeb Forums.

Please direct all discussions on martial traditions not specifically regarding aikido into this forum. This includes topics based on "aiki" concepts rooted outside of aikido proper, discussions which rely upon non-aikido jargon, and threads otherwise focusing on non-aikido martial traditions. Both the explicit content as well as the implicit intent of each topic will be considered.

I ask for your cooperation in moving and starting discussions of these kinds to the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum from now on; please respect these wishes as a part of your responsibiliy in participating in the AikiWeb community.

Thank you,

-- Jun
Hi Jun,

Out of everything here, I finally find one thing I disagree with. Not bad, really. But that disagreement is the name of the new forum. As I posted on the other thread, it relegates everything in this new forum as not belonging to aikido at all. In one stroke, all debate is done and over. None of the "aiki" topics being discussed will ever be seen as part of aikido. No one will view threads in this topic as having any importance at all in the aikido world. I would rather have seen the forum titled "Non-Traditional Aikido" than this. Any possibility of a name change?

Thanks,
Mark
 
Old 03-12-2007, 08:39 AM   #3
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

How about the "It's Aikido, Jim, but not as we know it" Forum?

 
Old 03-12-2007, 08:58 AM   #4
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Dear AikiWeb Members,

I have just created a new Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum in the AikiWeb Forums.
Thank you Jun

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
 
Old 03-12-2007, 09:07 AM   #5
Jorge Garcia
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Dear AikiWeb Members,

I have just created a new Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum in the AikiWeb Forums.
Thank you Jun.

Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
 
Old 03-12-2007, 09:12 AM   #6
dps
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

I was not visiting the forum as much as I would like to because the discussion seemed more and more not to be about Aikido. Thanks Jun.
David
 
Old 03-12-2007, 09:13 AM   #7
akiy
 
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Hi Mark,
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Any possibility of a name change?
At his moment, no.

-- Jun

PS: I do appreciate your thoughts, though. Thank you...

Last edited by akiy : 03-12-2007 at 09:15 AM.

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Old 03-12-2007, 09:38 AM   #8
MM
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

At his moment, no.

-- Jun

PS: I do appreciate your thoughts, though. Thank you...
Thanks for taking the time to read them and thanks for moving the other thread to training. We do the best we can with what we have.

Mark
 
Old 03-12-2007, 09:47 AM   #9
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Thank you Jun,
I hope this helps to keep some contributors who I find very inspiring and who were apparently about to withdraw.
Nicholas
 
Old 03-12-2007, 11:04 AM   #10
Alec Corper
 
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Why? There are already sites for other MA. I thought this was Aiki Web. Either it's related or not, if not why not go elsewhere, E-Budo, for example? Sorry Jun, I think its very courteous and an "aiki" like non-conflictual compromise, I just don't always think that compromise is the best answer. The tree that bends too far sometimes just snaps.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
 
Old 03-12-2007, 11:09 AM   #11
akiy
 
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Hi Alec,

Thank you for your thoughts. If you are not interested in reading the posts in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum, please use the recently announced Exclude Forums from View feature.

-- Jun

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Old 03-12-2007, 11:36 AM   #12
Ellis Amdur
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

If this were cut-and-dried, it would be easy, wouldn't it? But -
Where does the aiki in aikido stop and the aiki in Daito-ryu begin?Is the aiki in aikido similar to the jin/chi in Chinese martial arts? If not, why did Ueshiba rely on Chinese philosophical concepts to describe so much of what he did? If one puts an arm-bar or wrist lock on someone, is it intrinsicly different when done by an aikidoka or a jujutsuka or karateka? If Osensei was doing something different from his followers, what was it? (BTW - Is it possible that the world benefits far more from the changes that his son et al made than if aikido continued in the vein that Osensei taught?) And I'm not asking for answers to these rhetorical questions, just outlining the dilemma.
We have a situation where a site devoted to the discussion of aikido naturally draws in connections - by history, similarity of function, etc. At the same time, it's gotten obvious that the creative ferment has not been entirely productive, with a lot of ugly, personal references, etc.
Seems to me that "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" is the PERFECT name. A) For those folks who honestly wish to confine the discussion to "orthodox" aikido matters, (there will be cross-over, regardless, they know where not to go B) For those who have a more fluid, inclusive - or from another perspective, more fundamental(ist) - definition, they come to this forum. Given that some people prefer to call such things Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu , perhaps this really is fitting. And if in the process, some readers say, "Wait a minute, shouldn't this be my aikido?" Wonderful. I think the name thereby provokes the right questions. Whereas if people get huffy about being sectored off, it begs the question, in my mind, if such folks are getting a touch missionary in approach. I get as tired of phrases like, "If you want to devote yourself to twenty years of twisting wrists," as I do "You are talkign about resistence. Osensei never resisted."
Actually, I do have a better name - The "Popular Body Mechanics" forum - How to do, rather than all the rest of the personal insinuation and huffy outrage.
And it seems to me that tact requires two things.
1. For those who find this subject interesting, this is the place to post and be enthusiastic and provocative. Personally, I'm interested in reading about the skills and the exercises and the history. I am not interested in the least in the semantic debates and arguments about whether it works or is real or needs to be felt, or whether current aikido is a valid martial art with or without such skills. That's been done to death and ground into the pavement!
2. For those who find this subject overly provocative, IGNORE. For example, the Baseline Skills thread could easily be cut down to three pages, rather than it's current 39, if we went only by real information rather than sterile debate and shrill, school-girl level arguments.

Best

 
Old 03-12-2007, 11:48 AM   #13
Ron Tisdale
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Nice post Ellis, thanks for that!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 03-12-2007, 12:28 PM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

George, Another good one...

I think the suggestion of another sub-forum is a good one, and I'd like to thank Jun for trying it out. I really don't care what it's called, and it doesn't bother me at all if good *aikido* discussions take place in it that others miss because they don't want to go there. That's their choice, they have the right to make it, and we'll get along fine without them. Maybe from time to time, they'll take us off ignore and take a peak.

More importantly, maybe some of the diversionary tactics can cease now, and we can get back to some darn good discussions...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 03-12-2007, 03:06 PM   #15
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Nice post Ellis, thanks for that!

Best,
Ron
Except for the "school girl" reference... Since I'd contend that it was mainly "school boys" doing the shrill stuff.
 
Old 03-12-2007, 03:08 PM   #16
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Thank you,
Mary
 
Old 03-12-2007, 04:42 PM   #17
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Thank you for your thoughts. If you are not interested in reading the posts in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum, please use the recently announced Exclude Forums from View feature.
I'll try again, either its related or its not. If it is, why a separate forum? If its not, what the hell is it? I wont be ignoring it, I just cant see the point of the division, but I won't mention it again.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
 
Old 03-12-2007, 05:21 PM   #18
Ellis Amdur
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Hi Alec - Is Daito-ryu related to aikido? Yes - - - - and - - - no. Is Daito-ryu related to koryu? Yes - - - - and - - - - no. Is Aikido related to Chinese martial arts. Yes - - - -- and - - - - no. To karate? Yes - - - and - - - no. It seems that, for many readers of the blogs, the "no" shade far outweighed the "yes" in a number of threads, and the "yea sayers" were saying, "No, it's yes." And that, some found quite aggravating. Particularly when the "yes-sayers" added so many negatives. And on the contrary, the "no" sayers often said "no" to the "yes" sayer with the "no" in the middle in such a way that the "yes - sayers" said "no way." Given that aikido IS the "way," this caused some problems, because the "yes" sayers said they were either on the way, found the way or showing the way, and the "no-sayers" found this to be way out there, that the way was Osensei's, and the "yes-sayers" said that this was, in fact true, but the "no-sayers" and the "yes-sayers" found that the truths they agreed upon were diametrically opposed to one another.
This is not to say that you cannot say "no" or "yes" on the new subsection or the old, but everyone is asked to be both direct (irimi) and (courteous) tenkan about it - something we all can agree on, yes?

Best

 
Old 03-12-2007, 05:25 PM   #19
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

And that my friends pretty much wraps it up.
Thanks Ellis.
 
Old 03-12-2007, 06:27 PM   #20
Thomas Campbell
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Hi Alec - Is Daito-ryu related to aikido? Yes - - - - and - - - no. Is Daito-ryu related to koryu? Yes - - - - and - - - - no. Is Aikido related to Chinese martial arts. Yes - - - -- and - - - - no. To karate? Yes - - - and - - - no. It seems that, for many readers of the blogs, the "no" shade far outweighed the "yes" in a number of threads, and the "yea sayers" were saying, "No, it's yes." And that, some found quite aggravating. Particularly when the "yes-sayers" added so many negatives. And on the contrary, the "no" sayers often said "no" to the "yes" sayer with the "no" in the middle in such a way that the "yes - sayers" said "no way." [snip]

This is not to say that you cannot say "no" or "yes" on the new subsection or the old, but everyone is asked to be both direct (irimi) and (courteous) tenkan about it - something we all can agree on, yes?

Best
Ellis:

The City of Seattle should have hired you to publicize the vote on the waterfront viaduct that concludes tomorrow.

For those forum readers who may not know (or care), Seattle's waterfront elevated freeway was damaged by the 2001 earthquake. For six years, politicians have been debating whether to repair it or tear it down, and if torn down, whether to replace it with a new, larger viaduct, a tunnel (a la Boston), a bridge across the harbor, or improved local street traffic patterns and mass transit. The City Council finally pitched the matter to the voters with an advisory ballot on which the voters can voice their "yes" or "no" on two separate issues: build a new viaduct (yes/no); build a tunnel (yes/no). That's right . . . one voter could vote to build both a viaduct and a tunnel.

$1.5 million of local taxpayer money spent on this . . .
http://seattle.metblogs.com/archives...e_voters.phtml

That kind of money might have been better spent getting Dan Harden, Mike Sigman and Erick Mead together in the same room . . .
 
Old 03-12-2007, 07:00 PM   #21
MM
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Hi Alec - Is Daito-ryu related to aikido? Yes - - - - and - - - no. Is Daito-ryu related to koryu? Yes - - - - and - - - - no. Is Aikido related to Chinese martial arts. Yes - - - -- and - - - - no. To karate? Yes - - - and - - - no. It seems that, for many readers of the blogs, the "no" shade far outweighed the "yes" in a number of threads, and the "yea sayers" were saying, "No, it's yes." And that, some found quite aggravating. Particularly when the "yes-sayers" added so many negatives. And on the contrary, the "no" sayers often said "no" to the "yes" sayer with the "no" in the middle in such a way that the "yes - sayers" said "no way." Given that aikido IS the "way," this caused some problems, because the "yes" sayers said they were either on the way, found the way or showing the way, and the "no-sayers" found this to be way out there, that the way was Osensei's, and the "yes-sayers" said that this was, in fact true, but the "no-sayers" and the "yes-sayers" found that the truths they agreed upon were diametrically opposed to one another.
This is not to say that you cannot say "no" or "yes" on the new subsection or the old, but everyone is asked to be both direct (irimi) and (courteous) tenkan about it - something we all can agree on, yes?

Best
ROTFL, I actually followed most of that. Scary.

Thanks,
Mark
 
Old 03-12-2007, 08:49 PM   #22
Ellis Amdur
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Hi Cady and Mary -

Actually, it was my wife who came up with the "school-girl" reference. She was reading over my shoulder the other day - one of these threads that have led to this solution and she said, "Ellis, why is it that all these big tough martial artists talk to and about each other like a bunch of junior high school girls?"
I replied, " - - - - - - - - - -Uh - - - ummm"

 
Old 03-12-2007, 08:57 PM   #23
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Perhaps your wife hung out with girls either exclusively or at least much more than boys, and so the distaff was her main or only frame of reference. I was a tomboy and hung out with guys, and believe me, they could be shrill and whiney to the nth degree!

But remember, you gots to be a member of the minority to use the pejorative terms about said minority. Your wife can make reference to school girls with impunity. But you, fella, well, you know...
 
Old 03-12-2007, 11:42 PM   #24
Ellis Amdur
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

I never had the chance to hang out with boys, having been raised by wolves.

 
Old 03-13-2007, 07:06 AM   #25
dps
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Hi Cady and Mary -

Actually, it was my wife who came up with the "school-girl" reference. She was reading over my shoulder the other day - one of these threads that have led to this solution and she said, "Ellis, why is it that all these big tough martial artists talk to and about each other like a bunch of junior high school girls?"
I replied, " - - - - - - - - - -Uh - - - ummm"
Sounds like your wife could be a candidate for moderator for the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions Forum.

David

Last edited by dps : 03-13-2007 at 07:10 AM.
 

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