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Old 02-18-2007, 05:19 AM   #26
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
...
I don't know about anyone else, but I always find this approach a little amusing. Because iften it comes from people who have spent alot of time training themselves in very sophisticated methods of defence and attack standing. But once you hit the ground that approach is going to go out the window for biting and spitting? If that's effective- why not just take that approach standing as well and stop training altogether?
Or better still why not take that approach and START training that way ...
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:16 AM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

What? Start training on just scratching and biting etc?

The reason we don't train this way in principle centered arts like aikido and BJJ is that they are all about acheiving dominance or taking balance, that is what makes them work.

Punching, kicking, biting, scratching etc are all things that we do instinctively and what my good friend Matt Larsen calls the "universal fight plan". We all possess the ability to do these things already.

To become better fighters we need to learn how to do the things we learn to do in aikido and BJJ. We can isolate out all that other stuff, one because we already know how to do them, two, it is safer to train without them, three, we can better focus on learning core and fundamentals without their distraction.

Once we learn how to dominate, take center, or control, we can add that stuff back in to the mix and we are better fighters.

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Old 02-19-2007, 10:28 PM   #28
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Greetings Everyone,
This is my first post on here and as they say on talk radio, first time caller long time listener.

My impressions on this debate, and I've seen it covered on other forums, are that BJJ poses no greater threat to Aikido than does a well trained Wrestler or Judo practitioner. BJJ has just exploded in popularity especially with its effectiveness in the MMA, UFC, Pride fighting scene. That being said it can be and has been countered and effectively defeated by superior striking, counter attack, and effective take down defense. Like all styles it has its strengths and weaknesses. It is not all encompassing or monolithic nor do I believe that they think it is.

I think there is a certain amount of Aikido insecurity about this style out there, especially with outsiders or those new to the art(like myself), but maybe not with those well established in the art. Aikido has its own mystique and certainly its strengths and weaknesses as well. You can debate techniques and moves all you want but there are far too many variables to determine a winner or winning style, Roy said it best in that the only way to find out is to train for it. That is perhaps where some of this doubt or insecurity may arrise from, is that there are few Aikidoka who train for effective take down defense. (Maybe I'm wrong, please correct me if I am).

As a newbie, that is the one thing that I would suggest for this martial art, especially during Randori. Although I have seen dozens of impressive clips of Randori, I have yet to see even one attempt at a single or a double leg take down. IMHO your are doing yourself a huge injustice if you don't train for at least one or more opponents attempting to steal your center/movement by attacking your legs. In a real Budo situation it will happen.

Thank you for letting me join your wonderful forum.

Kevin
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:08 PM   #29
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Welcome to Aikiweb Kevin! thanks for your comments and addition to thread.

There are those out there that will practice leg sweeps and takedowns. However you are correct they are not done too often it seems.

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Old 02-20-2007, 01:51 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Basically did some grappling before.. go to this and that seminar... get my ass kicked every time...

Judo guys pinned me every time... BJJ guys... the same

So I came to the conclusion that I guess this style is not for me... I suck!

Safe to say, I won't go up against any grappling guys and play their game, neither I would go up to the ring or cage or whatever for that matter...

Life is dangerous enough as it is, don't really like go looking for trouble...

These guys are good at what they do... I'll just stay out of their way... Even if I have to, I'll do a tactical retreat...

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 02-20-2007, 06:27 AM   #31
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I wouldn't say you suck. I would just say you were not willing to dedicate time to get good at it.

I don't suck at kendo, I just don't feel like dedicating time to become good at it. (Actually, it looks like a lot of fun, just no clubs around here).

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:48 AM   #32
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

For someone who has done both Judo and Aikido, and leaving aside the circumstancial factors and the body build and athletism of the opponents as well as their experience, I am personally convinced that BJJ is going to be the obvious winner in a match. However I feel that an Aikido practitioner will be more efficient than a BJJ one of similar body build and experience in a situation of pure self-defense.
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Old 02-20-2007, 09:48 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I wouldn't draw either of those conclusions Edward. it depends on too many factors.

I will say that if you do not know how to grapple or at least clinch or avoid the takedown properly, you will be in a world of hurt in most fights though.

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Old 02-20-2007, 06:30 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I wouldn't say you suck. I would just say you were not willing to dedicate time to get good at it.

I don't suck at kendo, I just don't feel like dedicating time to become good at it. (Actually, it looks like a lot of fun, just no clubs around here).
Actually you have a good point...

Or maybe it's not my cup of tea as the saying goes...

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:04 AM   #35
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

To answer this question, grab a jo,boken or tanto and ask a bjj guy to try to take you to the ground and tap you out. First you won't find one who will be willing to even try, second if you do, even if you are awful at weapons the other guy is going to the emergency room, even if he is a Gracie.
Ever notice how in the Gracie propaganda videos and in the UFC the guys adopt a fighting stance and dance around and feint before engaging? This gives you plenty of time to draw a concealed weapon,if the other guy had one he would be trying to kill you with it instead.
As far as bjj guys using eye/groin strikes if you do, anybody who has sparred under those rules enough( never met a bjj or mma guy who has or wanted to, and I asked the crew the current UFC world champion in one weight category trains with) knows that bjj is not designed to deal with that kind of defender.If a bjjj attacker had any ability at using those skills he would use them standing instead of going for the takedown which makes him extremely vulnerable in comparison to doing a double leg takedown on a kickboxer for example.There is a huge difference in these types of standup.Have your sparring partner put on eye protection, a cup and gloves and experience the difference. Claiming that you can use these tactics without ever training them at all or with the same intensity you do your groundwork is the equivalent of a purely stand up guy( Boxer,M.T.,) claiming he can fight on the ground without ever having practiced ground grappling. Spar your stand up this way and the majority of ''fights'' will not end up with both guys rolling around on top of each other, if you are insightful enough you will no longer have any doubts about the effectiveness of aikido for self defense, you might even come to appreciate the practical use of training defenses against wrist grabs

Last edited by mikebalko : 03-12-2007 at 12:07 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:45 AM   #36
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

So Mike, I will assume that you have sparred against a mildly experienced BJJer, or UFC type? You have found this to be true on a personal level?

What are your personal experiences sparring in these types of scenarios?

How did you hold up?

What did you find useful and applicable? What did not work for you?

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Old 03-12-2007, 01:13 AM   #37
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:
Mike Balko wrote: View Post
To answer this question, grab a jo,boken or tanto and ask a bjj guy to try to take you to the ground and tap you out. First you won't find one who will be willing to even try, second if you do, even if you are awful at weapons the other guy is going to the emergency room, even if he is a Gracie.
Ever notice how in the Gracie propaganda videos and in the UFC the guys adopt a fighting stance and dance around and feint before engaging? This gives you plenty of time to draw a concealed weapon,if the other guy had one he would be trying to kill you with it instead.
As far as bjj guys using eye/groin strikes if you do, anybody who has sparred under those rules enough( never met a bjj or mma guy who has or wanted to, and I asked the crew the current UFC world champion in one weight category trains with) knows that bjj is not designed to deal with that kind of defender.If a bjjj attacker had any ability at using those skills he would use them standing instead of going for the takedown which makes him extremely vulnerable in comparison to doing a double leg takedown on a kickboxer for example.There is a huge difference in these types of standup.Have your sparring partner put on eye protection, a cup and gloves and experience the difference. Claiming that you can use these tactics without ever training them at all or with the same intensity you do your groundwork is the equivalent of a purely stand up guy( Boxer,M.T.,) claiming he can fight on the ground without ever having practiced ground grappling. Spar your stand up this way and the majority of ''fights'' will not end up with both guys rolling around on top of each other, if you are insightful enough you will no longer have any doubts about the effectiveness of aikido for self defense, you might even come to appreciate the practical use of training defenses against wrist grabs
Mike, BJJ is a grappling sports/art. It works best in a given scenario i.e., one-on-one, padded mat, no interference from lava, broken glass etc and no multiple opponents.

Aikido work best when the opponent is so enraged and blind with fury, he lost all rationality that he/she comes charging at you without scant regards to his safety or anyone else. He/She forgot about distancing or balancing.

There, two arts meant for different Combative scenario. Combat is so complex, that is why in any modern army organization, you have the Delta boys, marines, GI etc to serve the different needs.

I see both arts as specialization in their own zone. They both work... in their context.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:14 AM   #38
barry.clemons
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

With this question, I profess my ignorance of BJJ; but I have a question for you, Mr. Leavitt.

In your experience with BJJ/ground fighting, how would you say it fairs against multiple attackers at once; the 3-5 attacker randori one would expect to see in Aikido?
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:21 AM   #39
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:
Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
With this question, I profess my ignorance of BJJ; but I have a question for you, Mr. Leavitt.

In your experience with BJJ/ground fighting, how would you say it fairs against multiple attackers at once; the 3-5 attacker randori one would expect to see in Aikido?
I think they do what most Sane and Rational people would do... PLEAD, BEG FOR MERCY, RUN or AK-47 jutsu.

Boon.

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Old 03-12-2007, 01:36 AM   #40
barry.clemons
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

AK-47 jutsu. that's good. lol.

I know what you mean; but I'm talking in a training environment of course!

That's my personal issue with ground fighting vs. Aikido; how does it address the multiple attacker scenario if your comfort zone/goal is submission via takedown? I don't want to be quick to judge, as I've said before I've no experience in it. But I'm thinking worst case scenario; to me, that's not a place you want to be unless all four of your limbs can handle their own attacker equally on the ground.
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Old 03-12-2007, 07:57 AM   #41
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I think BJJ deals with that multiple attacker scenario about as well as Aikido.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:37 AM   #42
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Barry wrote:

Quote:
With this question, I profess my ignorance of BJJ; but I have a question for you, Mr. Leavitt.

In your experience with BJJ/ground fighting, how would you say it fairs against multiple attackers at once; the 3-5 attacker randori one would expect to see in Aikido?
Hehe...boon answered it.

Seriouslly, this is a very tricky and loaded question. One that I demonstrated last week as to why it is important to have ground skills in a multiple opponent scenario.

It is difficult for me to answer as I am not a purely BJJ or Aikido guy.

Don Magee might pop in here and comment as well at some point.

To me multiple opponent scenarios are very tricky to answer as they present many variables.

However I had to answer in a few words without qualification...i'd say what Michael Fooks said "about as well as aikido".

How do you eat an elephant? One piece at a time.

Same with multiple opponents, but you may be able to multitask a little.

I think a strength that BJJ did give me is that when i used to get "tonque tied" in Randori, I can sustain myself a little better from training the clinch range whereas before, I'd get to fighting with the guy and not really know what to do inside that range except struggle.

I think there is a bit of dissonance in aikido that somehow randori as commonly practiced gives us "leg up" on other arts through a set of skills that translates to being able to handle multiple opponents, when in reality it does noy, the skills and principles we learn doing randori are technically correct, and may even apply tactically to a degree, but nothing translates in training to 100% reality (to include BJJ).

A big part of this, from my experience is that randori does teach and reinforce the importance of irimi, tenkan, and maintaining space and timing, and positional relation such as triangulation, entering and spliting opponents...but typcially stops the practice once you are "tied up" and the "fight begins".

BJJ typically trains from the point of failure (clinch) and works from there.

It is sort of like how Judo is commonly practiced. They get really good at the throws, but maybe not so good at newaza, because they emphasize a particular aspect of of the fight spectrum.

I tend to not practice multiple opponent too much as in eating the elephant you do this one piece at a time. I think it best to train from all ranges of combat with one person that is influencing closing distance (ma'ai) and then working within the clinch to ground work. then once you can deal these, occassionally your break up the spectrum of ranges and apply it to multiple persons.

An over generalization would be that aikido guys practice moving, irimi, tekan and avoidance and BJJ guys ignore this and move into the clinch.

in reality in a real fight as an over generalization, Aikido guys get caught and can't get out of the clinch and BJJ guys fixate on the clinch and get trapped by multiple opponents...hence they deal with it about equally as well!

it is all situationally dependent. We shouldn't assume that BJJ guys are so dumb that they don't know how to disengage and run. How fast do they have to run? Only a little faster than the aikido guy! (couldn't resist that one!)

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Old 03-12-2007, 09:53 AM   #43
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Barry wrote:

Quote:
That's my personal issue with ground fighting vs. Aikido; how does it address the multiple attacker scenario if your comfort zone/goal is submission via takedown? I don't want to be quick to judge, as I've said before I've no experience in it. But I'm thinking worst case scenario; to me, that's not a place you want to be unless all four of your limbs can handle their own attacker equally on the ground.
yes true, you don't want to end up on the ground. Fights are all predicated on choice (or lack of it). For some reason, probably because we want to believe that we won't be in these situations, we typcially assume that we somehow had choice in the fact that we did not end up on the ground.

When you start looking at rreality, all your training really starts focusing on points of failure or worse case scenario. It is not that you WANT to end up on the ground, you simply may not have any choice in it.

Remember in a fight your opponent wants to impose his will on you in a physical manner. If attacked, the element of suprise is one that most people, even those less skilled in martial arts intuitively understand is important to exploit. they intuitively understand that in order to beat you, they must off balance you. they use suprise, audacity, and speed to accomplish this.

One of the training affects I think we get in aikido is that we assume equal stance and start with a certain level of a priori knowledge.

so called Groundfighting is good in this respect because it starts the fight typically from a point of disadvantage or a point of failure. It may be in the clinch range, it may be on the ground.

realitively speaking, things like kicking, hitting and running, scratching, biting etc are all low tech, low skill things. That is, we are all born with the basic ability to to these things and they don't require much training. Being able to do these while dominating, or being dominated, or as a tactic to disenage from a fight does not really take a whole lot of training.

Either you can run away, or you cannot. If you cannot, you might be able to irimi tenkan and buy time to escape, or eventually you are caught...and then what???

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Old 03-12-2007, 10:18 AM   #44
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I think BJJ deals with that multiple attacker scenario about as well as Aikido.
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:33 PM   #45
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
So Mike, I will assume that you have sparred against a mildly experienced BJJer, or UFC type? You have found this to be true on a personal level?

What are your personal experiences sparring in these types of scenarios?

How did you hold up?

What did you find useful and applicable? What did not work for you?
"mildly experienced"? Where did you get that from? Everything I have posted and will post is based on personal experience.What I noticed is that the guys who accepted were just as experienced as those who didn't in terms of rank and time training bjj. Those who didn't were much higher ranked in mma and had other real world experience (doorman in a night club, security work) and had already received serious beatings before getting involved in fight sports. They seemed more educated in general and more knowledgeable about self defence v.s sport/competition. None of those who accepted were able to close/clinch and take it to the ground and those who didn't accept stood around and made fun of and laughed at those who did for even trying. Few "aikido techniques" were performed as the openings for the types of strikes I mentioned earlier were always present.When they were not, my sparring partner was bent over in a kind of standing fetal position or on all fours after a failed tackle attempt and had lost sight of me.While they were open to other dangerous strikes, particularly to the back of the neck, spine. I was usually able to just bump or shove them to the ground instead(kokyu nage)
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:33 PM   #46
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Long day, just bothered to check the web.

BJJ in a multiple attacker situation has its disadvantages and benefits. Of course I do not advocate just bjj for self defense. I advocate alive training for what ever it is you want to deal with. We do a multiple attacker drill from time to time. The main goal is to stay standing while you have 2-5 guys rushing you with no escape and trying to take you down. Once you are down your goal is to stand up under a barrage of slaps and submission attempts. Everyone fails because the drill is designed to make you fail, as you get better we add more attackers.

What does this build? A desire to never give up, experience with how crowds operate and how to move when under physical stress. It deals with how to escape from a clinch, and how to safely disengage from a ground situation. It does not look anything like bjj, but is 100% bjj.

Think about it this way, if you were taken down to the ground, with a guy on top of you and his buddys on the way or on top of you, who would you rather be? A MMA or bjj trained fighter with training on how to properly use his body to protect, escape, and stand up or a person who never or rarely trains in this range, with no sparing, and no idea the kinds of stress that are going to be applied to them.

Its really not that complicated when you get down to it. Who would you rather be in a boxing match? My 11 year old ATA TKD nephew, or Mike Tyson? You train for the type of encounters you expect to engage in.

Did I just support scenario training? Yes and no. I do not belive you should train on how to deal with a bar, then how to deal with a nightclub, then how to deal with a living room like most RBSD arts do. I mean you should train to deal in the ranges and body types you plan to need to defend against. To simplify this I'm going to say there are basically 3 ranges (with sub category's of course) Standing, clinching, and ground. All 3 of these are important. If you cant' deal with a guy striking you, you are in bad shape. If you can't deal with a guy clinching you, you are in bad shape. If you don't know how to deal with the guy that is sitting on your chest..... Do I have to say you are in bad shape?

So the question becomes, do you know what you want from your training? Are you getting it? Are you being realistic and telling the truth about those two questions?

I can't use anyone but myself as an example. I train for a few things
1) For fun and sport. I love the fitness and thrills I get. Am I getting this? Obviously. I am losing weight, getting stronger, and having a blast.
2) To learn how to deal with larger, stronger, opponents.
I'll talk more about this in a bit.
3) My own interest in the history and development of all martial arts.
I accomplish this goal by trying new things, reading tons of books, and trying out tons of martial arts.
4) To eventually pass this down as a teacher.
5) To help further a sport (MMA) that I love.
These last two really need know answer if I am getting that goal done. Obviously by training, I am doing this.

So that leaves number two. How am I working to this goal? Well, the first thing I do is attempt to mitigate the fitness advantage by getting in better physical shape. Obviously sports are one of the better ways to do this. Next, I need to identify my personal weakness. First, I do not have a awesome build. It is hard for me to build muscle, i"m 5'10". I have a job that makes me sit for 10 hours a day. My nose bleeds with mild contact. I have glasses and very very poor eyesight and can not wear contacts.

Next my strengths. I'm small in stature, unassuming, quick, very calculating, dedicated, etc.

A bigger stronger person probably will have none of my weakness. This means I am very vulnerable to strikes. My best tactic will be to close the distance and force a clinch fight. Here the power of a larger man's punches is slightly mitigated. I can use my quickness to force mistakes on the bigger man, further more I can use leverage to then throw him and escape, or submit him on the ground. The strenght advantage is even more reduced on the ground where I can use my technique to force my larger muscle groups against smaller muscle groups (armbar, wristlock, choke, etc) and can disable if needed with 'illegal' techniques. So we know how judo and bjj fit into this. How does aikido fit into this? Well I use the drills to help develop concepts of distance and practice closing the distance with aiki like movements. Once that distance is closed, judo and bjj do the rest of the work for me in an efficient way. Of course I wish I could throw in more MMA sparing and boxing to help develop better head movement and striking defenses. This is a major weak area for me.

How do I accomplish these tactics and make sure I am prepared to use them? Is it showing up to a class 2 days a week? No its though alive drills, against as many different types of people and body types and I can find. These drills help develop proper technique and a good feel for movement in these very small ranges. I then follow this up with sparing in broader ranges such as judo randori, submission wrestling, etc. Finally I try (although I slack off on this too much) to add full MMA sparing.

And the track record has proven far better then any other art I've trained in. Prior to this method, I have trained in martial arts for years. I did TKD (black belt), krav maga, aikido. Yet I could not leverage any of my skills against a green belt judo student or a white belt bjj student when put to the test. Because I did not look realistically at what I was doing and I did not have aliveness in my training. Am I a master now who can take all challengers? HA! far from it. In fact I get beat down 6 days a week. Usually by bigger, stronger guys that I am trying to learn how to deal with. But one thing has changed, I am improving, faster then I ever improved. Anyone who walks in the door with no prior 'sport MA' training I am confident I can spar with and win. This is not because bjj is better, but because aliveness is better. I know my limits, I know myself, and I know how to read what my attacker knows. I know when I'm out classed, and I know when I'm the bigger dog.

I am just now today starting to achieve a level close to what I was so sure I had accomplished when I was not training with aliveness. I was positive that I could not be taken down, that I could kick a guy at will, that I had the anti grapple with eye gouges and leg pinches. I believed everything my instructors told me. Well, rather I questioned it in my heart, but I convinced myself to believe it. And a lot of what they told me was true. That wasn't the problem. The problem was that without aliveness I never developed the sensitivity and physical ability required to actually perform my techniques against someone hell bent on stopping me.

So you ask the question, how does bjj train you to deal with multiple attackers? My answer would be it all depends on how you train your bjj. If you start drilling standing up and escaping clinches, your bjj will help your multiple attacker scenario greatly. This is not to say bjj will teach you to deal with all ranges of a fight, far from it, but it will give you a great foundation, or at the very least help you defend yourself properly should you ever find yourself on the ground.

Finally, to Mike Balko.

I'm more then willing to play with weapons or spar under any rules within reason. I'll allow eye gouges, pinches, biting, safe weapons (no reason to use a boken when kendo people have developed perfectly good tools for us to use). In fact I have done this for time to time to prove a point. The simple fact is most bjj guys do not train to deal with this because they simply do not care about it. The techniques are there, I've seen Carlson Gracie Jr. show standing wrist locks and other traditional defenses. Your post shows how limited your understanding of bjj is. You think its all double leg takedowns and chokes. Our bjj club knows many good judo throws. Beyond that many proper techniques are designed to protect your eyes and throat from attacks. We just don't talk about it because we simply do not care. That's why the mount is so important, you can hit them, then can not create any leverage to hit you. Can they go for the groin? Sure but they take a much greater risk, namely staying conscious long enough to attack the groin while they get blows rained down smashing their head between the ground and a fist/elbow/forearm/palm. It seems to me a proper defense to protect your head then escape would be a much better idea. I like my skull in once piece.

This is not to say that sport aspect is not leaking in. I've watched people told to do things that would get you killed on the street, like see if you do this he can't hit you because striking to the back of the head is illegal. Again though, it comes down to being honest with yourself and your goals.

And besides, I really do not see a street fight going beyond that first Harai I throw. Especially if I revert to competition mode and land on his chest.

Last edited by DonMagee : 03-12-2007 at 01:36 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:50 PM   #47
barry.clemons
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Kevin/Don,

JEEZE. My eyes are burning after reading all that! I need some Visine.

These answers were exactly what I was hoping for.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Long day, just bothered to check the web.

BJJ in a multiple attacker situation has its disadvantages and benefits. Of course I do not advocate just bjj for self defense. I advocate alive training for what ever it is you want to deal with. We do a multiple attacker drill from time to time. The main goal is to stay standing while you have 2-5 guys rushing you with no escape and trying to take you down. Once you are down your goal is to stand up under a barrage of slaps and submission attempts. Everyone fails because the drill is designed to make you fail, as you get better we add more attackers.

What does this build? A desire to never give up, experience with how crowds operate and how to move when under physical stress. It deals with how to escape from a clinch, and how to safely disengage from a ground situation. It does not look anything like bjj, but is 100% bjj.

Think about it this way, if you were taken down to the ground, with a guy on top of you and his buddys on the way or on top of you, who would you rather be? A MMA or bjj trained fighter with training on how to properly use his body to protect, escape, and stand up or a person who never or rarely trains in this range, with no sparing, and no idea the kinds of stress that are going to be applied to them.

Its really not that complicated when you get down to it. Who would you rather be in a boxing match? My 11 year old ATA TKD nephew, or Mike Tyson? You train for the type of encounters you expect to engage in.

Did I just support scenario training? Yes and no. I do not belive you should train on how to deal with a bar, then how to deal with a nightclub, then how to deal with a living room like most RBSD arts do. I mean you should train to deal in the ranges and body types you plan to need to defend against. To simplify this I'm going to say there are basically 3 ranges (with sub category's of course) Standing, clinching, and ground. All 3 of these are important. If you cant' deal with a guy striking you, you are in bad shape. If you can't deal with a guy clinching you, you are in bad shape. If you don't know how to deal with the guy that is sitting on your chest..... Do I have to say you are in bad shape?

So the question becomes, do you know what you want from your training? Are you getting it? Are you being realistic and telling the truth about those two questions?

I can't use anyone but myself as an example. I train for a few things
1) For fun and sport. I love the fitness and thrills I get. Am I getting this? Obviously. I am losing weight, getting stronger, and having a blast.
2) To learn how to deal with larger, stronger, opponents.
I'll talk more about this in a bit.
3) My own interest in the history and development of all martial arts.
I accomplish this goal by trying new things, reading tons of books, and trying out tons of martial arts.
4) To eventually pass this down as a teacher.
5) To help further a sport (MMA) that I love.
These last two really need know answer if I am getting that goal done. Obviously by training, I am doing this.

So that leaves number two. How am I working to this goal? Well, the first thing I do is attempt to mitigate the fitness advantage by getting in better physical shape. Obviously sports are one of the better ways to do this. Next, I need to identify my personal weakness. First, I do not have a awesome build. It is hard for me to build muscle, i"m 5'10". I have a job that makes me sit for 10 hours a day. My nose bleeds with mild contact. I have glasses and very very poor eyesight and can not wear contacts.

Next my strengths. I'm small in stature, unassuming, quick, very calculating, dedicated, etc.

A bigger stronger person probably will have none of my weakness. This means I am very vulnerable to strikes. My best tactic will be to close the distance and force a clinch fight. Here the power of a larger man's punches is slightly mitigated. I can use my quickness to force mistakes on the bigger man, further more I can use leverage to then throw him and escape, or submit him on the ground. The strenght advantage is even more reduced on the ground where I can use my technique to force my larger muscle groups against smaller muscle groups (armbar, wristlock, choke, etc) and can disable if needed with 'illegal' techniques. So we know how judo and bjj fit into this. How does aikido fit into this? Well I use the drills to help develop concepts of distance and practice closing the distance with aiki like movements. Once that distance is closed, judo and bjj do the rest of the work for me in an efficient way. Of course I wish I could throw in more MMA sparing and boxing to help develop better head movement and striking defenses. This is a major weak area for me.

How do I accomplish these tactics and make sure I am prepared to use them? Is it showing up to a class 2 days a week? No its though alive drills, against as many different types of people and body types and I can find. These drills help develop proper technique and a good feel for movement in these very small ranges. I then follow this up with sparing in broader ranges such as judo randori, submission wrestling, etc. Finally I try (although I slack off on this too much) to add full MMA sparing.

And the track record has proven far better then any other art I've trained in. Prior to this method, I have trained in martial arts for years. I did TKD (black belt), krav maga, aikido. Yet I could not leverage any of my skills against a green belt judo student or a white belt bjj student when put to the test. Because I did not look realistically at what I was doing and I did not have aliveness in my training. Am I a master now who can take all challengers? HA! far from it. In fact I get beat down 6 days a week. Usually by bigger, stronger guys that I am trying to learn how to deal with. But one thing has changed, I am improving, faster then I ever improved. Anyone who walks in the door with no prior 'sport MA' training I am confident I can spar with and win. This is not because bjj is better, but because aliveness is better. I know my limits, I know myself, and I know how to read what my attacker knows. I know when I'm out classed, and I know when I'm the bigger dog.

I am just now today starting to achieve a level close to what I was so sure I had accomplished when I was not training with aliveness. I was positive that I could not be taken down, that I could kick a guy at will, that I had the anti grapple with eye gouges and leg pinches. I believed everything my instructors told me. Well, rather I questioned it in my heart, but I convinced myself to believe it. And a lot of what they told me was true. That wasn't the problem. The problem was that without aliveness I never developed the sensitivity and physical ability required to actually perform my techniques against someone hell bent on stopping me.

So you ask the question, how does bjj train you to deal with multiple attackers? My answer would be it all depends on how you train your bjj. If you start drilling standing up and escaping clinches, your bjj will help your multiple attacker scenario greatly. This is not to say bjj will teach you to deal with all ranges of a fight, far from it, but it will give you a great foundation, or at the very least help you defend yourself properly should you ever find yourself on the ground.

Finally, to Mike Balko.

I'm more then willing to play with weapons or spar under any rules within reason. I'll allow eye gouges, pinches, biting, safe weapons (no reason to use a boken when kendo people have developed perfectly good tools for us to use). In fact I have done this for time to time to prove a point. The simple fact is most bjj guys do not train to deal with this because they simply do not care about it. The techniques are there, I've seen Carlson Gracie Jr. show standing wrist locks and other traditional defenses. Your post shows how limited your understanding of bjj is. You think its all double leg takedowns and chokes. Our bjj club knows many good judo throws. Beyond that many proper techniques are designed to protect your eyes and throat from attacks. We just don't talk about it because we simply do not care. That's why the mount is so important, you can hit them, then can not create any leverage to hit you. Can they go for the groin? Sure but they take a much greater risk, namely staying conscious long enough to attack the groin while they get blows rained down smashing their head between the ground and a fist/elbow/forearm/palm. It seems to me a proper defense to protect your head then escape would be a much better idea. I like my skull in once piece.

This is not to say that sport aspect is not leaking in. I've watched people told to do things that would get you killed on the street, like see if you do this he can't hit you because striking to the back of the head is illegal. Again though, it comes down to being honest with yourself and your goals.

And besides, I really do not see a street fight going beyond that first Harai I throw. Especially if I revert to competition mode and land on his chest.
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:55 PM   #48
mikebalko
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Mike, BJJ is a grappling sports/art. It works best in a given scenario i.e., one-on-one, padded mat, no interference from lava, broken glass etc and no multiple opponents."

Lava, LOL, I love bullshido also, it is freakin hillarious

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...t=45685&page=2
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...t=45685&page=2

"Aikido work best when the opponent is so enraged and blind with fury, he lost all rationality that he/she comes charging at you without scant regards to his safety or anyone else. He/She forgot about distancing or balancing."

So does everything else becasue I guy who does that doesn't know his a** form his elbow.

I see both arts as specialization in their own zone. They both work... in their context.

Boon.
I agree. Bjj is great for taking down and tapping out bangers( boxers, kickboxers, etc) whereas aikido techniques are good for throwing guys who are trying to kill you with a weapon or trying to blind you and neuter you empty handed while doing their best to prevent you from doing it to them first.
I am really perplexed by this talk of begging for your life and AK 47 jutsu when attacked by a group. Obvioulsy if you can't defend yourself against one guy in a sparring situation(most aikidoka I have encountered) forget about realistic multiple attacker defence, but even an average guy can keep a group of unarmed attackers at bay with just a knife! It causes them to attack differently(the point of training wrist grabs) even if you just act like you might have one on you and they haven't even seen it yet.
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Old 03-12-2007, 02:30 PM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Mike,

Thanks for replying back with more info.

The situations you discuss are good ones. Bouncers develop strategies (tactics) for bouncing, police officers develop strategies (tactics). For both in a controlled situation, which 99% of the time they will remain in, they would not jump on their back and pull guard and go to the ground. Ground fighitng in this respect is simply a skill they may not need.

However, it does not mean that they cannot go to the ground. So for them to discount basic grappling skills would not be prudent IMO.

Does that mean they need to develop 5 guard sweeps,and 5 submissions? Not at all, they simply need to be able to control the guard, or simply reverse the mount to protect themselves for 15 to 20 seconds until their buddy can come along and remove the assailant.

So, yes, in affect on does not really need to develop a killer ground game to be martially effective.

In fact, I train soldiers for 5 days prior to going downrange, I have a down and dirty instruction period that we teach them very, very basic things. Our scenarios only have them rolling for 15 seconds to drive the point home. I also have a large banner on the wall that says. "the winner of a hand to hand fight is the guy whose buddy shows up with a gun first."

Don Magee is all over it. ALL over it. THIS is the proper way to train for this stuff. It is exactly how we train in my dojo.

It is not about aikido, nor bjj it not what those arts can do. It is what you can do and what you train for. It is about aliveness. Add that into your training, then you can begin to understand the ranges and dynamics as they apply.

BJJ and Aikido offer us a very good basis to train with within two ranges. add in aliveness, and then you can use these methodologies to develop your mind and the skills necessary to understand the applications of what we learn in these arts.

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Old 03-12-2007, 02:42 PM   #50
mikebalko
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 25
Canada
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Eek! Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Finally, to Mike Balko.

I'm more then willing to play with weapons or spar under any rules within reason. I'll allow eye gouges, pinches, biting, safe weapons (no reason to use a boken when kendo people have developed perfectly good tools for us to use). In fact I have done this for time to time to prove a point. The simple fact is most bjj guys do not train to deal with this because they simply do not care about it. The techniques are there, I've seen Carlson Gracie Jr. show standing wrist locks and other traditional defenses. Your post shows how limited your understanding of bjj is. You think its all double leg takedowns and chokes. Our bjj club knows many good judo throws. Beyond that many proper techniques are designed to protect your eyes and throat from attacks. We just don't talk about it because we simply do not care. That's why the mount is so important, you can hit them, then can not create any leverage to hit you. Can they go for the groin? Sure but they take a much greater risk, namely staying conscious long enough to attack the groin while they get blows rained down smashing their head between the ground and a fist/elbow/forearm/palm. It seems to me a proper defense to protect your head then escape would be a much better idea. I like my skull in once piece.

.
The words play, safe, and weapons don't fit together, this is why katate dori is practiced empty handed so much, traditional aikido is not competitive and so misunderstood.There is a big difference between someone not caring about something and being completely vulnerable to it because they think it is impossible for ANYONE to realistically defend against it.
So you were taught you can't hit someone from the guard?I just saw George St. Pierre, (UFC champion in his weight category) on a T.V show about MMA, training with David Loiseau at Tri star gym where he said the exact opposite. He then said he prefered being in the guard due to the increased submission oportunities. In a standing clinch, (which is needed to execute a judo throw in a no rules setting) and when you are sitting on someone ground and pound style the groin and eye strikes won't help you, because you are dead.. even if you are the one who ends up on top bashing away or you get a sub from the guard,you are dead if you are training to defend yourself against someone who might be armed or have back up.Ever notice how vulnerable mma fighters are to Big John Mcarthy when he decides the fight is over?
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