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Old 03-11-2007, 05:18 PM   #951
statisticool
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You simply snipe, ...
You did not answer any of the questions.

Again, what are the problems you perceive, why do you feel that your approach is better than becoming an aikido and taijiquan teacher and correcting that way, and how is talking about forces and the ground different than external?

I'm trying to get a handle on the specific problems which are claimed by a few to exist in the aikido and taijiquan teaching community.

Quote:
Go visit Jim Sorrentino, like some of us have, and show him what you can do.
I think people can see that a desire to have me visiting Jim, whos dojo I already have visited and sat in on some classes and found impressive, and don't have any disagreements with, has nothing to do with my questions.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:36 PM   #952
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
They have thier views on base line skills. and counter ours at every turn.
I go by what the founders of the arts have written about them and my interpretations of them, and what current long-term masters of the respective arts state.

As far as I can tell, no founder of aikido, taijiquan, etc., has written about force vectors and the like, or about specific skills that are supposedly the basis for an entire collection of martial arts.

So when I ask people making claims who are not teachers or even current practitioners in the respective arts, for evidence, or state that I respectfully disagree, it is not a 'my view vs. yours' type of thing, but me asking for where the founders of these arts said such things.

Quote:
If they have something to actually show that will benefit aikido instead of yaking....lets see it.
You've seen it. Asking people who make grand claims and checking out their responses does in fact benefit aikido.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:37 PM   #953
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Re: Baseline skillset

Justin,

Who are you studying with in the Northern VA area?

I will be returning in July to DC area for a couple of years. I will be studying once again with Jimmy and our dojo and ANV. I will also be splitting my time with Lloyd Irvin's school there in Arlington as well.

Not sure where your martial interest lay, but I am happy to get with you and explore whatever realm you'd be interested in.

I don't think I'd be much help on isolating Ki per se or doing things like push hands, as that is not my strength, and frankly there are much better people out there than me on this.

However, if you are interested in learning grappling, or seeing how some aspects of aikido apply to non-compliant situations, I would be happy to meet with you and work through some of these situations...keeping in mind of course that I am no expert, nor profess any in the area of aikido or grappling...hence why I will study with people that are better than me (Jimmy Sorrentino, and Lloyd Irvin's peeps).

I am however, a guy that has an interest in exploring concepts openly and with whatever resistance/compliance you wish to explore.

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Old 03-11-2007, 06:26 PM   #954
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
I go by what the founders of the arts have written about them and my interpretations of them, and what current long-term masters of the respective arts state.
Justin once again raises points about the history of the art of Aikido. A history that has shown Ueshiba talking about pushing and many, of his students testimony to that effect and then there is the overwhelming video evidance.

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
As far as I can tell, no founder of aikido, taijiquan, etc., has written about force vectors and the like, or about specific skills that are supposedly the basis for an entire collection of martial arts.
Well thats not true either. There are writings in CMA on various specifics uses of jins and applications of force vectors in motion, and how to do them. And depending on which master level teachers you have met and trained with they most certainly will talk to you about specifics. Maybe their sharing just depends on -your- skill level.

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Asking people who make grand claims and checking out their responses does in fact benefit aikido.
Justin
Well, so far I have had the benefit of some fairly rude behaviour and "challenges" by way of invitation. I have stepped-up with about a dozen people from here who have all written in that the claims (which are not grand claims in my estimation) are in fact as I stated them, and more. So have others.
Now after all that, with smoe pretty substantial testimony- instead of hubris- you see the writing continually pointing to a balance. Stating that these skills are potent and can greatly benefit to aikido but they, like allot of other things, still have to face MMA or Judo.
Something whcih I also show. The last two groups here were all asked if they would like to try and toss me Judo or jujutsu style without me doing a damn thing by way of technique back to them.

Folks here should at least ackowledge credibility to the good men and women, your peers, who came and felt me and Mike and Rob.
Why do you want and choose to hold untenable position against so many witnesses. Forget us, what about all of them?
I have noticed the naysayers never chastise or harrass these folks when they write. They go after Mike, or me.
If the interests were truly in researching skills that benefit Aikido and are foundational as the source of Aiki- why not talk or write about these peer reviews too. Go back and read all the testimony and honestly assess their diverse experiences and opninions.
Are they all wrong too?

A peer review thread could be the collected works of the testimony of the Aikidoka who have felt these skills. The skills that are the source of this seemingly controversial topic. I've not read a detractor yet. But sadly nore have I read of any support for their efforts from the naysayers. Its as if they don't exist as the nay sayers go after us or our views instead. I've not seen the like. It makes Ikeda's words seem all the more timely and needed.
Cheers anyway
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-11-2007 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 06:26 PM   #955
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
I go by ... my interpretations of them,
[[snip]]
So when I ask people making claims ...it is not a 'my view vs. yours' type of thing,
Your own words say it is your interpretation, yet you don't want to demonstrate "your interpretation".

"Jin" can certainly be interpretted as a "force vector" or trained-force skill. In the generic and common usage, "jin" and "qi" are used interchangeably, so any discussion of "ki" or "qi" has umbrella coverage of "force vector".

In the "Thirteen Chapters" that Cheng Man Ching wrote (and I've told you this at least 2 times in the past, so this innocence flies in the face of the archives) Cheng details in Chapter seven, the physics discussion, a fairly straight-forward discussion of the physics of the forces. They are forces with direction; hence, they are vectors. So when you say that no one else discusses force vectors you are wrong and you are being wrong despite having had the same question answered before.

I've provided a reference to this website several times in the past, indicating from a recognized expert that jin (the basis of kokyu force) is indeed a force-vector skill ("Kraft" auf Deutsch):
http://www.taiji-qigong.de/info/arti...nsljin_en.html

But this has already been answered several times in the past, so let's make this the last time. Be upfront the way Ricky Wood was... have the grace to admit you have some idea of "getting under my skin" and let's not pretend that continued passive-aggressive attacks are not really attacks because of wording issues. Reminds me too much of the disguised dominance issues encountered sometimes on the mat and the wide-eyed surprise when someone gets called on it.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-11-2007, 06:54 PM   #956
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well you pansy Judo guys are such lightweights you gas out and go home early. Ron and Murray looked around and said where did all the tough guys go? Couldn't take it? They only invited the "real martial artists" to dinner!
I think were gonna be having a repeat performance soon enough Bud. In the mean time try running or lifting dumbells... I hear it helps.
Hope to see ya soon.
Dan
Dan,
Thanks for the advice. But right now I am working on strenghtening my grip. After 8 years of iai and 10 plus of aiki-ken it was pretty embarassing having a boken knocked out of my hands and fwatching it fly across your dojo.

I have been concidering adding to this thread, detailing my experiences with you & your students, what I felt, what I couldn't do to you and so on. But what would it really do. After reading this entire thread it is apparent that many people have already made there minds up. Nothing you will say or do will change their minds. So why bother? Personally I would love nothing more than for you to keep this stuff to yourself and those of us that are training with you

Tim
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:39 PM   #957
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well theres a thought. Some folks have been none to polite here about us.
How about the dozens of folks who have felt varous combinations of all three or two asking Eric and Justin to come......show?
They have thier views on base line skills. and counter ours at every turn. If they have something to actually show that will benefit aikido instead of yaking....lets see it.

Dan
Sure. I'd be up to meeting anyone.

Mark
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:15 PM   #958
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tim Mailloux wrote: View Post
Dan,
Thanks for the advice. But right now I am working on strenghtening my grip. After 8 years of iai and 10 plus of aiki-ken it was pretty embarassing having a boken knocked out of my hands and fwatching it fly across your dojo.

I have been concidering adding to this thread, detailing my experiences with you & your students, what I felt, what I couldn't do to you and so on. But what would it really do. After reading this entire thread it is apparent that many people have already made there minds up. Nothing you will say or do will change their minds. So why bother? Personally I would love nothing more than for you to keep this stuff to yourself and those of us that are training with you

Tim
Hi Tim
Have you read Kevins stuff? I have to keep it firmly in mind when I read the ilk from Kevin L. "That I don't know weapons, I'm ignorant, I don't understand distance...and now I'm spouting garbage, I'm not martially effective what dojo he hails from. Its a repeat performance.
Isn't it odd that these guys are now summarily dismissing you, guys as well? Now couple that with that teacher from Japan telling me to not trust these people. They are smiling to my face all the while with an agenda.

You know what -every- one of you guys has asked me to leave and go back into hiding. You all seem to share both the humor and the pointlessness of even talking to someone who hasn't felt it.
What do I say to you know who so elequently prodded me into considering sincere folks...like you guys?

I'd say write anyway, Tim. The naysaers never challenge you guys. Its really pointless to call dozens of you liars now isn't it?
What it will do is speak to the hundreds of earnest readers. As my buddy advised me and I shared with you?
Write the letter here as is you are writing to help.... you.
And let the naysayers go back to endless repetitions of waza waiting to get peices of something, anything here and there.

I have about a dozen emails for another get together and I think it will be a private one like the last two.
See ya soon
Dan
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:18 PM   #959
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Folks here should at least ackowledge credibility to the good men and women, your peers, who came and felt me and Mike and Rob.
Why do you want and choose to hold untenable position against so many witnesses. Forget us, what about all of them?
I have noticed the naysayers never chastise or harrass these folks when they write. They go after Mike, or me.
If the interests were truly in researching skills that benefit Aikido and are foundational as the source of Aiki- why not talk or write about these peer reviews too. Go back and read all the testimony and honestly assess their diverse experiences and opninions.
Are they all wrong too?

A peer review thread could be the collected works of the testimony of the Aikidoka who have felt these skills. The skills that are the source of this seemingly controversial topic. I've not read a detractor yet. But sadly nore have I read of any support for their efforts from the naysayers. Its as if they don't exist as the nay sayers go after us or our views instead. I've not seen the like. It makes Ikeda's words seem all the more timely and needed.
Cheers anyway
Dan
Wow. And how true your post is.

Mark
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:24 PM   #960
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What do I say to you know who so elequently prodded me into considering sincere folks...like you guys?

I'd say write anyway, Tim. The naysaers never challenge you guys. Its really pointless to call dozens of you liars now isn't it?
What it will do is speak to the hundreds of earnest readers. As my buddy advised me and I shared with you?
Write the letter here as is you are writing to help.... you.
And let the naysayers go back to endless repetitions of waza waiting to get peices of something, anything here and there.

I have about a dozen emails for another get together and I think it will be a private one like the last two.
See ya soon
Dan
To the prodder, Dan. I'd say thank you very much.

And Tim, I would like to see you post your experiences, too. As with Dan, it isn't for the naysayers who seem to never quit or get a clue. It's for those who are looking and so that they don't just see all the naysayers words, so that they can see there is something out there.

Dan, I hope you keep me in mind for the next get together.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:07 PM   #961
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There are writings in CMA on various specifics uses of jins and applications of force vectors in motion, and how to do them.
Which writings are you thinking of? Modern books, or the 'taiji classics'? Because I know a small group of people, most of which probably do not have grasp on translating Chinese, take things written in them like 'receive the earth's qi' to mean 'ground vector', which can be quite a stretch.

Quote:
Now after all that, with smoe pretty substantial testimony- instead of hubris- you see the writing continually pointing to a balance.
I'm sure your and others' skills are impressive, that was never in question. I'm interested in what the founders of these martial arts have said in regards to the grand claim being put forth of certain so called internal things being the basis for taijiquan, aikido, etc.

Quote:
Folks here should at least ackowledge credibility to the good men and women, your peers, who came and felt me and Mike and Rob.
I'm glad people got something out of the seminar.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:13 PM   #962
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Who are you studying with in the Northern VA area?
I mainly practice fencing and taijiquan, and lift a lot of weight. I don't see though how specifics pertain to the topic under discussion.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:42 PM   #963
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Jin" can certainly be interpretted as a "force vector"..
If you're drawing a vector on a piece of paper, you're really saying you'd call it a 'jin' in Chinese? Or a 'qi', since you claim they are interchangable?

Quote:
So when you say that no one else discusses force vectors you are wrong and you are being wrong despite having had the same question answered before.
I'd be wrong if I said that no one else discusses force vectors, but I didn't say that. Obviously you are one person who is discussing vectors.

I said no "founders". But there was more to it. I additionally said that none of these founders have stated that such vectors or so called internal skills are the "basis" of these arts as is being claimed.

Quote:
indicating from a recognized expert that jin (the basis of kokyu force) is indeed a force-vector skill ("Kraft" auf Deutsch):
Yet again, not from any founder. And, again, you assume jin is the basis of kokyu.

Of course, there are other taijiquan people, Chinese ones too, recognized experts too, who translate jin differently. The examples are too numerous to list, but even in the book reference you gave above it is different. And other native speakers and martial artists, for example http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/pjcf.htm have a different take.

And actually, from the link you provided, it describes jin as a skill gained over time, after practice. Therefore, it cannot be the basis, the building block, if it is what one gets after practice, not before it.

Will you share what problems you perceive in the aikido teaching community?

Quote:
What are the problems you perceive, why do you feel that your approach is better than becoming an aikido and taijiquan teacher and correcting that way, and how is talking about forces and the ground different than external?
Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:47 AM   #964
ChrisMoses
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Chris Moses asked a question that generally asked if more focus on these basics of ki/kokyu shouldn't be implemented in most Aikido practice. I agree, FWIW. Chris didn't think the basic practices in most Ki-Aikido, while generally in the right direction, was very effective. I agree, generally, with that observation.
Just to be clear, I'm not actually advocating an increased discussion on ki within aikido. I am advocating more focus on developing internal structures and sensitivities. I don't particularly care if one uses chi/ki speak or very specific internal structure/feedback models. I believe (although I suspect Mike will disagree) that they are different ways of getting to the same place. I find that if the structure isn't in place, one will never achieve any of the sensations associated with ki/chi flow, but personally I find an effect rather than a cause. Since there is so much baggage already associated with the term "ki" I'm fine leaving it on the side for a while and coming at this stuff from a different angle, probably one of the reasons that I found the Aunkai stuff so approachable.

Chris Moses
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:05 AM   #965
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Just to be clear, I'm not actually advocating an increased discussion on ki within aikido. I am advocating more focus on developing internal structures and sensitivities. I don't particularly care if one uses chi/ki speak or very specific internal structure/feedback models. I believe (although I suspect Mike will disagree) that they are different ways of getting to the same place. I find that if the structure isn't in place, one will never achieve any of the sensations associated with ki/chi flow, but personally I find an effect rather than a cause. Since there is so much baggage already associated with the term "ki" I'm fine leaving it on the side for a while and coming at this stuff from a different angle, probably one of the reasons that I found the Aunkai stuff so approachable.
Hello Chris,

I found that there are three training methods that can be used:
1. Structural
2. Pathways
3. Structural and Pathways at same time.

Having been in DC with Mike and Rob, I found that Rob's exercises worked quite a bit on structure while Mike's exercises worked quite a bit on pathways. (noting that there was little time for anything but basics with Mike and Rob, so I'm sure there are a lot of other exercises designed for other benefits.)

It seems that a lot of the ki society exercises fall under #2 in some form but rarely on #1 as it pertains to internal skills being discussed here.

I'm not sure which methodology works the best since I'm a beginner at this. But, I think that if you're breaking things down, then you'd have to at least do training exercises for #1 and #2.

IMO anyway,
Mark
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Old 03-12-2007, 02:03 PM   #966
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Re: Baseline skillset

I have come across a website that some might be interested in.
http://www.dynamicbalancingtaichi.co.uk/index.htm
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:10 PM   #967
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
And actually, from the link you provided, it describes jin as a skill gained over time, after practice. Therefore, it cannot be the basis, the building block, if it is what one gets after practice, not before it.
No, you are completely wrong here.
A basic skill needs to be learned.
Once the time and training has been invested in learning a basic skill then further skills can be learned that build upon that foundation.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:35 PM   #968
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
A basic skill needs to be learned.
Once the time and training has been invested in learning a basic skill then further skills can be learned that build upon that foundation.
I'm still wondering where the founders of the respective martial arts make such a claim about a physical skill needing to be learned before one can truly master, or even be said to be practicing, the given martial art.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:09 PM   #969
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
I'm still wondering where the founders of the respective martial arts make such a claim about a physical skill needing to be learned before one can truly master, or even be said to be practicing, the given martial art.
I have Yukiyoshi Sagawa's Clear Power (透明な力) book right infront of me right now and it says exactly that on pages 72-73 (assuming you can read japanese). I picked it up in japan right now and it is a good read (and good practice for language learning). its ISBN number is 4-06-207077-4.

See page 26 of this very thread for discussion on it.

Last edited by HL1978 : 03-12-2007 at 06:20 PM. Reason: actually says part of it on page 73
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:07 PM   #970
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Re: Baseline skillset

"Offering help is a good thing in principle but it is important to allow that it may not be required or appreciated. Not everyone wants to be helped. Some people are too proud. Too proud to accept. Perhaps too proud to ask. The latter is tricky. Or they may not realise that they need help or may genuinely not require it.
Other people like the challenge of difficulty. They would rather work it through for themselves. Whatever you do, be careful not to push your help on someone. If you offer help and it is declined, take no offence. You gave freely and should have no attachment to your advice. Easy come, easy go."
(Nick Waller)
http://www.dynamicbalancingtaichi.co.uk/Help.htm
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:30 PM   #971
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Re: Baseline skillset

"Conflicting practice
A cooker heats food and a refrigerator cools it.
They cannot be combined - the very notion is absurd and functionally not viable.
Each is separate and must be kept separate.
The same is true of internal and external martial arts systems.
Whilst many people cross-train or import ideas into tai chi, this is not conducive to progress.
To gain the shape of Yang style tai chi you must train Yang style tai chi.
There is nothing simpler than this.
Consider the use of the arms and shoulder.
In tai chi, the pathway of power must bypass the shoulder - moving from the middle to the extremity, with no real elbow and shoulder work.
Press-ups, weight training and other such arm-oriented exercises perpetuate the over-use of the shoulders and elbows.
All external martial art systems use the arms and shoulder in a manner that differs from tai chi."
(Nick Waller)
http://www.dynamicbalancingtaichi.co.uk/Shape.htm
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:21 PM   #972
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Re: Baseline skillset

Ricky,

Instead of simply pasting someone else's verbiage here... why not tell us what you understand that verbiage to mean, and more pertinently how you see it applicable/not applicable to the discussion.


Ignatius
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:42 PM   #973
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Ricky,

Instead of simply pasting someone else's verbiage here... why not tell us what you understand that verbiage to mean, and more pertinently how you see it applicable/not applicable to the discussion.

No disrespect intended Ignatius, but I'd rather not. I found the passages to be interesting and thought provoking and felt like sharing them. That is all.
Please feel free to share your thoughts with us though.
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:17 PM   #974
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
No disrespect intended Ignatius, but I'd rather not. I found the passages to be interesting and thought provoking and felt like sharing them. That is all.
Please feel free to share your thoughts with us though.
Well, if you found it to be interesting and thought provoking, then pray tell, do share, what was so interesting and what thoughts were being provoked. Frankly I don't see the point in cutting and pasting chunks of text from someone else without providing some sort of personal commentary as to how any of this provokes further thinking on my part or why it should be remotely interesting to me, much less to anyone else.

We can all read the link and keep our comments to ourselves too.

Just a thought.

Ignatius
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Old 03-13-2007, 06:58 AM   #975
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
No disrespect intended Ignatius, but I'd rather not. I found the passages to be interesting and thought provoking and felt like sharing them. That is all.
Please feel free to share your thoughts with us though.
Personally, Ricky, if you don't fee like adding to the discussion of baseline skills as it relates to Aikido instead of just posting taichi quotes from someone else, then please keep them to yourself.

Thank you,
Mark
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