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Old 03-10-2007, 09:23 AM   #26
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote: View Post
The Ki Society is a centralized organization. That means the teaching methods are the same in Japan as they are in the US or elsewhere. Therefore they don't take into account the differences in culture. If you tell a Japanese student, "Extend Ki." they might have an idea of what you're talking about, since ki is a fairly common word in the Japanese language. If you tell an American student, "Extend Ki.", they will scratch their head and ask, "What's a Key?" since the word is foreign to the English language.
Interestingly, Japanese students are told 氣を出す ki wo dasu. Dasu is one of those ubiquitous, heavily used words in Japanese (possibly used in more contexts than ki!), but the core meaning is one of "put out", putting something that is inside outside. A look here can give you idea of the many contexts it's used in. To my ear, dasu seems to have a much broader meaning than "extend", but I imagine those in the Ki Society tried to find a proper English term for the feeling they wanted to evoke.

Also, I find it interesting that the Ki Society uses the 氣 character, to distinguish it's ki from the 気 ki used in everyday Japanese speech. In contrast, Aikikai uses 氣 only in calligraphy, and uses 気 in all other situations, including 合気道 aikidou and 合気会 Aikikai.

Incidently, when Morihiro Saito refers to ki in his Takemusu Aikido series (in, IIRC, his Traditional Aikido series), he says to 「十分に指を開いて気力を充実させる」, "Fully open the fingers and fill them with ki power."

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 03-10-2007, 09:24 AM   #27
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And yet the "secret" methods of Aiki are outlined in DR.
Where they are kept quite secret, no?

Josh Reyer

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Old 03-10-2007, 10:04 AM   #28
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And yet the "secret" methods of Aiki are outlined in DR.
With all their surprising corrolations to what I have seen of two Internal arts so far. DR's In-yo ho can and did stop Ueshiba's students in their tracks.
But, as was argued in the other thread. It doesn't exist and Ueshiba was "unqiue in all the world" and no one else can and will eve be able to do it so just ignore this stuff, settle for being less and get on with waza.
Dan
Everyone is "unique in all the world". That's why criminals get caught through fingerprints and DNA analysis.

Why should anyone of us settle for being less? Especially since these abilities are part of the waza.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:14 AM   #29
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I appreciate and agree with your reply. What I was trying to refer to is that we sometimes spend too much time trying to explain martial arts and desect it like a dead frog in science class. Instead we should accept combat for what it is . Alive, unpredictable and unscripted..
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:23 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Combat is scripted for the most part. Scripted through strategies, doctrine, and tactics. We take the lessons learned from the past, translate them into knowledge, then wisdom, and attempt to set ourselves up with the skills necessary to win.

Within that realm we must maintain, flexibility and adaptability to adjust to the changing circumstances.

so, yes it is necessary to dissect frogs to learn what we can from them. However, the real issue is when we start forming attachment or meaning to things erroneously...such as subscribing to the liver the functionality of the heart.

Unpredictability. Not always so. we can assume a certain level of risk to a given set of circumstances. I can assume that there is a greater chance of being mugged or ambushed with a given set of conditions, time of day, place, etc. Recognizing these conditions you can better predict, mitigate, or eliminate unpredictability.

Alive. Well yes, this one I will agree with. a question that was always asked of by at least one of my OCS candidates about how to improve their push ups....my answer...do more push ups.

The only way to prepare for combat is to train as close to the actual conditions as you can. That said, in trainng you always control and set the conditions in order to correctly allow for the opportunity to train the things that you want to train.

External/Internal....

Well to me....once you set the correct conditions and understand your training objectives, then the discussions over internal and external become meaningless...you simply train to meet your objectives given the set of condtions that are present. Instructors and Teachers give you best practices, or techniques, tactics, and proceedures that have been proven to work in the particular set of circumstances in the past.

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Old 03-11-2007, 10:30 AM   #31
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Angry Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

"Just do more pushups......."

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Alive. Well yes, this one I will agree with. a question that was always asked of by at least one of my OCS candidates about how to improve their push ups....my answer...do more push ups.
There are better ways to do push ups than doing push ups. There are better results to be gained from doing pushups -a certain way- over others. Both most certainly do not end in the same result.
For those who don't know any better, the answer will be "Just do more pushups."

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The only way to prepare for combat is to train as close to the actual conditions as you can. That said, in trainng you always control and set the conditions in order to correctly allow for the opportunity to train the things that you want to train..
Is this why Aikido almost always fails in dealing with trained fighters? Why it has never, and can never, enter and be succesful against MMA? It never really ever trains for someone to fight back who has meaningfull skills?
Is your logic dictating that the best viable training is MMA methodology then?
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
External/Internal....
Well to me....once you set the correct conditions and understand your training objectives, then the discussions over internal and external become meaningless...you simply train to meet your objectives given the set of condtions that are present. Instructors and Teachers give you best practices, or techniques, tactics, and proceedures that have been proven to work in the particular set of circumstances in the past.
All due respect I totally disagree with this.
And no one I know who actually has internal skills would ever agree with you either. They do overlap but just ask them if they are...meaningless? Ask them if they are willing to give them up? In fact, as I have suggested over and over and over. Poll the men and women who have met Rob Mike and me. and ask them if they thought the "USE" of these skills-is meaningless.

It seems is has been their experience that Aikido (as done by them)... becomes.. meaningless when used on us. On a personal note I've not had an Aikido technique of an kind succesfully used on me in so long I consider the point moot. No I'm not saying Aikido is no good, just these skills are far, far, better; both against aiki-do and (since they are the very foundation of aiki)....as aiki-do.

"Teachers give you best practices, or techniques, tactics, and proceedures that have been proven to work.......
Instructors, teachers, give you what they know. And that ain't saying much. By its own logic it reuquires a neophyte to be the arbitor of who know what. Something they frequently judge simply on the surface value of what they see.

For those so inclined they can continue to have X dans show up and make small adjustmens in their waza and search in vain for the paths of power of a long dead man- through the waza of his son- I say good luck.
There is a reason that most people in the martial arts suck. The reason isn't the kata. It's not knowing the power behind it all. In order for their to be a chewy center one must first have a chewy center. Second one must be abel to reveal it. Or last one must be able to break the hard shell of a reluctant teacher and steal all that chewy goodness. I've broken a few hardshells and found nothing there.
Mike said somewhere here that he thinks that 98% of those in the arts will never get it. I think Mikes 2% is hopeful. I'd suggest a half a percent. Everyone else is teaching what they know surface waza. As I offered in my opening statement. The quality of that teachers "expertise" may just be what it has always been.
"Just do more pushups (kata)."
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-11-2007 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:45 AM   #32
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why it has never, and can never, enter and be succesful against MMA?
Why should it? Last time I checked, real self defense situations do not involve fighting other trained fighters in a ring, with dozens of rules, etc., but unplanned and unavoidable attacks in real life against people not as trained.

Of course, aikido has been highly useful to police forces, including in Japan. You know, the real world, not sport or training.

You overlooked that.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:53 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

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Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Why should it? Last time I checked, real self defense situations do not involve fighting other trained fighters in a ring, with dozens of rules, etc., but unplanned and unavoidable attacks in real life against people not as trained.

Of course, aikido has been highly useful to police forces, including in Japan. You know, the real world, not sport or training.

You overlooked that.
Well to do what you did to me on the Aiki'd thread...
I was asking Kevin a question about specific training as he does and agrees with the potency of MMA. It has not to do with an overall view

I could expand as it is my view -and have stated openly- that Aikido could once again be more potent then it is. But as you didn't bother answering my questions there I see no need here. Most of my questions go unanswered here anyway. But I continue to ask anyway.
Dan
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Old 03-11-2007, 11:23 AM   #34
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Dan,

I don't think anyone here is claiming aikido's relevance in MMA or competition.

However, if you would like to meet on those terms, we should see about having an event in which you could adequately demonstrate your proficiency in MMA. It be great to have an event with say, Jason Delucia...he is in Mass.

Quote:
On a personal note I've not had an Aikido technique of an kind succesfully used on me in so long I consider the point moot. No I'm not saying Aikido is no good, just these skills are far, far, better; both against aiki-do and (since they are the very foundation of aiki)....as aiki-do.
what ARE you saying above? that you have met no one that can use aikido skills on you....your skills are superior....not to say that aikido is no good. seems like a HUGE contradiction to me. I am confused once again as to what your point concerning aikido really is?

As far as teachers. I suppose I have been one of the rare, fortunate ones, that have had good teachers and models to follow. They have taught me alot. Apparently you have personal issues you need to work out with your teachers in the past. Why is it that you feel so ripped off from them and so bitter towards them?

I don't agree with everything my Karate instructor taught me, but I did take away alot from him.

I don't agree with everything Saotome sensei says...but I took alot away from him. Same with Jimmy, Bob, Steve Van Fleet, Jacare, and the rest....I learned something from all of them..still do.

It has stood the test of actual use in my career and my life.

Dan, you have some issues...serious ones in respect to teachers and martial arts in general.

Quote:
There is a reason that most people in the martial arts suck.
By whose standard are we judging? Your standard? Who defines sucks? My definition of suck is failure to recognize their own shortcomings and deal with them. Failure to have introspection.

With this definition you'd define a guy with cerebral palsy that did aikido as sucking right? even though, he is doing the best he can with his attitude and body.

If by suck, you are talking martial effectiveness, then how do you define that? I have been trying to get you to define it. Not from an internal or external perspective...but by what you consider effective?

What is your definition of martial effectiveness and what do you consider to pass your judgement of good and NOT sucking?

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Old 03-11-2007, 11:36 AM   #35
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Dan wrote:

Quote:
Well to do what you did to me on the Aiki'd thread...
I was asking Kevin a question about specific training as he does and agrees with the potency of MMA. It has not to do with an overall view

I could expand as it is my view -and have stated openly- that Aikido could once again be more potent then it is. But as you didn't bother answering my questions there I see no need here. Most of my questions go unanswered here anyway. But I continue to ask anyway.
Dan
So what is your question?

What do I TRAIN on and HOW do I TRAIN to be martially effective?

I have my own definition of martial effectiveness. Empty hand is but a small part of what I do in this area. What does it matter towards aikido what I do to train martial effectiveness.

by that definition, we'd have to change aikido to incorporate hand guns, close quarters marksmanship lots of things. Sounds kinda preposterous to bring these things into aikido.

To be able to answer your question Dan, I need you to adequately define what it is that aikido is failing to achieve in the generally accepted terms of how it is practiced throughout the world.

The difference between us is I don't presume to understand what everyone's goals of are in aikido to have cojones enough to say that it is lacking or failing to meet everyone's expectations.

Does aikido meet all my personal goals martially? No it does not. Neither does BJJ or anything else I study.

I don't believe that aikido needs a saviour Dan.

In order for me to answer your question, you must first adequately define the question. I am not going to assume that I understand your defintion of effectiveness. I see too many people fall into the trap of this logic and go down that rat hole of argument without fully considering the totality of what it means.

Once I understand a little better about what you consider to be effective, then we can start having an intelligent and productive conversation on this subject.

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Old 03-11-2007, 11:53 AM   #36
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Now I'm confused
Are you stating that if Chuck beats Randy it nullifies MMA as method? Or If Jason beats me, or I him, it nullifies my argument that MMA is a superior method? Any and all combos prove my continual arguemtn about MMA.
MMA against Aikido? Proves my points again
I think your frustrated with me and once again sniping at me instead of my argument about MMA and Aikido?

Your confusion about my statements about Aikido in particular and issues I have?
I think Aikdo waza-was meant to be powered by internal skills. Without them ya aint got much. With them you can have a potent art. Gee.... that must be the hundreth time I've said that. Although I (personally-did you not read that? )haven't felt anyone IN Aikido with real internal skills- I trust the fellows who have told me its there. Which is why I have stated it must frustratiing for those who have admitted here their teachers got the stuff but don't openly teach it.
Seems clear to me. I think you're confusing my statements or not fully reading what I write.
Once again Kevin, and I thnk for the final time, I have stated I argue on two fronts; MMA and internal skills
Internal skills are a tremendous advantage. A hell of an edge. But they do not teach you how to fight.
MMA is the great equalizer of all things.
Both together are the best combo. While no method and no person is unstoppable either of those remain a serious edge.
Of both I'd count on MMA the most for fighting fighters
And Internal skills for most everyone else.

If we leave Aikido out of it it makes my postion clear.
Add Aikido back in and I revert back to a single position/ statement.
Aiki-do was created from the effect Daito ry Aiki had on Ukes. Ueshiba relaized he didn't need to draw-in-at-the-feet as in most koryu. That he could project out with DR Aiki. So using Takeda's Aiki...Ueshiba powered his vision of peace and he realized he could defend without cauing harm. Thus his statement that "Takeda opened my eyes to true Budo."

Its all so simple Kevin
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-11-2007 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 11:55 AM   #37
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Instructors, teachers, give you what they know. And that ain't saying much.
Dan, you lost me on that one. Are you suggesting they give you something they don't know?
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:08 PM   #38
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Dan, no I am not. I did not even mention MMA in my post you responded to. You are the one that brought it into the equation. You threw the MMA card out there on the table. I am simply letting you play with it. So lets play with it.

Are you judging Aikido by an MMA criteria as the basis of martial effectiveness? Exactly what do you mean by MMA anyway. UFC rules? Pride rules? Modern Army Combatives rules? Dog Brothers rules?

Quote:
Your confusion about my statments about Aikido perticularly and issue I have? I think Aikdo waza-was meant to be powered by internal skills. Without them ya aint got much. With them you can have a potent art
Define Potent art for me then we can have a discussion on this.

To me it is another way of saying martially effective.

We cannot discuss this intelligently until you define the criteria upon which you are judging aikido to be lacking.

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Old 03-11-2007, 12:12 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Dan, you lost me on that one. Are you suggesting they give you something they don't know?
Teachers can only give you four things on a technical level
1. What they know
2. What they only "want" you to know
3. What you can steal

You hope and pray and work hard and hope and pray again that you get good stuff. Even then we have all trained next to guys in certain things that have more talent, They get better faster then us or us them. Its just the way of it
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-11-2007 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:52 PM   #40
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Kevin
I'm not going to expand on views I've expressed a hundred times.
I've been very clear. If you don't understand my views by now, you never will.

You wrote
"Aikido doesn't need a saviour, Dan....."

Uhm,.... yes it does. Who it may be, or where they come from is up for those in it to decide

Ikeda 2006
"Even if the number of people practicing aikido reaches the tens of thousands, there is no meaning if we are fighting among ourselves. It only means we are moving in the opposite direction from O-sensei's philosophy. Peace cannot be made unless we all come together - not just karate and aikido, but all budo.

The kind of power through kokyu that Ushiro sensei has been teaching is completely different from what is usually thought of as kokyu. All of the people who came to this camp experienced this. It may have been only an introduction to this kind of practice and this kind of power, but I think it was a real plus for people to be able to experience it.

As a teacher, one of the most important considerations is how we are bringing up new people in the art, both now and into the future. There will be no growth if we just repeat what is currently being done. For ourselves and for the Aikido of the future, it is necessary to completely change the way aikido is practiced. I think we have come to this critical crossroads."


And from Ushiro

The Essence of Budo: Nullifying the Opponent's Power, and Ki
In aikido, practice often consists of using circular movements to avoid or lead an opponent's attack. However, this category of response is possible only against certain categories of attack. When up against the straight and explosive strikes of Okinawan karate, circular movements would never be fast enough.

In modern karate and other competitive martial arts, most practice is comprised of nothing more than moving the hands and feet in response to different attacks. This kind of practice depends on strength, speed, and timing. As one gets older, however, there is no guarantee that one can continue using this kind of strength. Everyone, at some point, will hit the 'wall of advancing age'.

In order to address this limitation, it is necessary to find something that is not based on physical power - something not visible to the eye, something that controls the opponent even before contact is made. This is ki. If one can cultivate ki, then one can utilize it in all aspects of life,
says Ushiro shihan.

I think Ushiro's and Ikeda's words will by and large fall on deaf ears.
Just as Ueshiba's did. And everyones going to just go back to searching for paths of power in Kissomaru's technical syllabus and coming up empty.
Mike's 2% will make the leap and start looking elsewhere like I did.
The word is out, the low level Aikido teachers have now felt the power available to them and the means to get what Ikeda admits has been missing. And we are willing to share with them what we know and possibly what their teachers can't or won't teach.
Which leaves us to ask Ushiro just who he thinks he is.
"Who am I?
I'm the guy doing his job.
You must be the other guy!"

.........From the Departed

The whole article is here.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=688
Thanks again to Stans work at Aikido Journal.

In closing I hope we can disagree-even strongly-as friends and not enemies. I'm sure we'll meet up and train and laugh and train and just be (as Meik Skoss says so elequantly) two more bums on the budo bus.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-11-2007 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:22 PM   #41
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Hi dan and kevin,
I appreciate what you both have to say in this matter. I myself subscribe to MMA as being a philosophy I subscribe to. I think it has helped me to be more eclectic and have more options to deal with a variety of situations. However, If one individual learns multiple martial arts over a lifetime that time has to be split among learning different styles and strategies. I think it would be ignorant to think that an individual who spends a lifetime in one art(eg. Aikido) is somehow inferior. After all every style comes from other styles so in a way all practice MMA. This is a discussion that has been going on as long as I have been a martial artist. There are very talented martial artists in all styles and on any given day under any number of possible situations all styles can win or lose. This is a argument which cannot be proven . It would be better that we respect all martial arts as valid and useful. Some styles fit better with some individuals than others. Just as some techniques work better for some individuals than others.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:54 PM   #42
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think Aikdo waza-was meant to be powered by internal skills.
We'd have to go back to what the founder and family of this martial art actually say.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-11-2007, 02:25 PM   #43
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Greg Block wrote:

Quote:
This is a argument which cannot be proven . It would be better that we respect all martial arts as valid and useful. Some styles fit better with some individuals than others. Just as some techniques work better for some individuals than others
Agreed. This is why it is important to establish the criteria upon which you are placing judgement against, and why I ask the term Martially Effective to be defined, before we can have a conversation on this subject.

Dan,

so if you have defined martially effective or "potent martial art", it eludes me, and I will not ask you to define it again. However, we simply cannot have a discussion on this matter.

Adjectives like martially effective and potent, even the term MMA are emotionally charged words that have many meanings attached them. We all think we know what the other means and we probably don't really.

So instead of answering the question, you appeal to authority with quotes from Ikeda sensei and Ushiro. This says nothing about your ability to convey change, or to speak as an authority on the subject.

I would ask them the same question. I have trained with Ikeda at a couple of Cherry Blossom seminars in DC. I have felt him, and have listened to him talk about aikido and kokyu.

No his words do not fall on deaf ears. Their are people out there listening to him and finding what works. These guys will also tell you to find your own path and voice. That can be interpreted in many ways.

I have had a few high ranking aikidoka that I respect tell me that same thing. I do not translate this into aikido is broken in a major way, but on a personal level that my way of training is appropriate and valid and one they feel will lead me in the right direction.

Maybe we can get together and train some day. We'd have to reach an understanding though of what is considered to be an apporpriate critieria upon which to train within though before then.

I don't know from our conversations what that might be.

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Old 03-11-2007, 02:36 PM   #44
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Justin wrote:

Quote:
We'd have to go back to what the founder and family of this martial art actually say.
No, I don't think we need to go back to what they said. We all pretty much know what they said. My sensei knows what he said, cause O'sensei told him directly, as well as many others.

In Dan's quote of Ikeda, I do think it is important to look at what Ikeda is saying, and it is not blind fundamentalism.

O sensei's goals and philosophy was pretty clear. Just as in most religions, we look at the dogma and the text and the actual practice evolves over time to be re-interpreted based on the collective experiences and meanings of the current society.

Christianity is not practiced the same in any given country or society.

Aikido kinda really falls into this same category. It is important to allow for the freedom of growth and discovery as long as the goals values, and philosophy remain the same.

Appealing to past authority for all your source of judgement is fundamentalism and you run the danger of being irrelevant or out of sync with the rest of society for the sake of ole times.

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Old 03-11-2007, 03:46 PM   #45
DH
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Kevin
We'll just have to meet some day. In many aspects -here-I am talking past you anyway. Don't take that the wrong way. Its just that in many aspects I am talking to those who are listening.... and not debating. At a certain point trying to "convince" someone of anything isn't fun anymore.
At this point I think we've stepped up to the plate and hosted enough folks of varied backgounds to pretty much settle doubts among those who were doubtful. Personally It's not that I'm uninterested in your views, just that I recognize that several of the naysers and debators seem to be affiliated with single Dojos or teachers with issues so I'm not much interested in a debate that will never move forward largely due to personality/loyalty issues.You wouldn't believe some of the P.M's I get.

Your tag line
"Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack." MG George S. Patton
seems quite appropriate. I'd only cautioned that cyniscism and learned experience are two different world views.

If I remain and talk at all, I am only interested in talkng to a broader general audience that continues to contact me to train. These folks are the ones who will actually improve at a far more rapid pace due to this level of training. They are the researchers who are getting an inkling of issues I believe are the truths of their art. There has been a blizzard of private emials that have gone out- each one of the dozens who have met us, who each have ther own network of friends who trust them. A word-of-mouth from trusted friends is the best reccomendation -I'll talk a little bit longer on the net and then stop again for a year or so to work with these folks.

It's that 2% I'm interested in talking to. I'm not trying to change everyone else's mind on the web. I prefer them to be the "other guys" anyway. For me its about finding the sincere "me's" out there. It was a good friend of mine who caused me to change my mind about sharing. "What about the sincere -you's" out there who are searching?"

When debating stops being interesting to me I quite. And in the back of my mind I now hear the words of the teacher who wrote me cautioning me that "all is not as it seems." That several guys only want to take it and claim that they had it all along-including two of his very own. He was more honest about his own skills then his own students! His words about "the smiles are all surface. A lesson they learned well from their Japanese teachers" are interesting words of advice I hear when I am now standing their looking at a smiling faced individual who wants "to learn."
It makes the "tone" thread and the crystal clarity of just who -really has the issues-take on a whole new meaning to me.
Good luck in your training, I have my own to consider as well
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-11-2007 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 03:52 PM   #46
statisticool
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Appealing to past authority for all your source of judgement is fundamentalism and you run the danger of being irrelevant or out of sync with the rest of society for the sake of ole times.
Conversely, one runs the danger of thinking aikido is B when it really is A. If one wants to be practicing actual aikido, not just some cool hybrid based off of it, this type of error is much more severe.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:50 PM   #47
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Justin,

Well actually aikido CAN cover a full spectrum of many things. Commonly, there is a certain base methodology that you will typically see being performed commonly in most dojos.

Things such as a swords length ma'ai with hamni. Practicing from this distance using shomenuchi or yokomenuchi for example. Teaching irimi and tenkan...using wrist grabs, kokyunage, and the like.

However, you could also practice it close in from the clinch as well as from the ground in the mount, guard or whatever...

The thing that makes it aikido is the philosophical approach towards conflict resolution.

I have grown an appreciation for WHY we do practice from a swords length ma'ai. Aikido is about engaging conflict and dealing with it BEFORE the physical starts. So, in that respect, I'd say that it is difficult to teach certain concepts of the philosophy from the clinch and positions where physical contact has already occurred.

Frankly from a conflict resolution standpoint, I think this is one of the primary strengths of commonly practiced aikido training that often gets overlooked as we concentrate on the physical.

However, teachers use the methodology to teach the philosophy and the DO of aiki. Within that realm, there is a pretty darn wide birth for technique.

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Old 03-11-2007, 06:11 PM   #48
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Dan Wrote:

Quote:
At this point I think we've stepped up to the plate and hosted enough folks of varied backgounds to pretty much settle doubts among those who were doubtful. Personally It's not that I'm uninterested in your views, just that I recognize that several of the naysers and debators seem to be affiliated with single Dojos or teachers with issues so I'm not much interested in a debate that will never move forward largely due to personality/loyalty issues.You wouldn't believe some of the P.M's I get.
I don't really have any loyality issues. Why would I have any? It ain't like I am looking for a promotion in aikido or anything or I earn brownie points for defending it. I have studied it for the last 10 years or so, still haven't made it to shodan. I don't have an aikido dojo with aikidoka looking at me to defend the art.

Let me make it clear that I have not been a naysayer of the exercises or the skills that have been presented. Show me where I have done that.

I have only asked directed questions toward some of the more profound claims. such as martial effectiveness, that goes unanswered or undefined. I think they are reasonable questions.

Rob John, did step up a little bit and demonstrate some of how he sees it applicable. He also has not stepped out into the same area of claims that you have.

From all I have heard many that I have respected have come on line and said, they appreciate what they have seen and experienced and think that it will add value to their training.

There is a huge gap between that and words thrown around liberally such as martial effectiveness, MMA will evolve to this next level...etc.

All I ask is HOW do you know this? HOW do you define effective? Why haven't we seen this in the UFC?

All reasonable and logical questions based on the some of the things that have been illuded to or outright presented.

That is all I am asking.

If not, please stick to telling us how we can better incorporate the skills into our current training without all the other flak and garbage that tends to confuse and rouse emotions.

I understand that it is probably a feeling thing, something that has to be experienced though.

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Old 03-11-2007, 06:55 PM   #49
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Teachers can only give you four things on a technical level
1. What they know
2. What they only "want" you to know
3. What you can steal
...?
Am I missing something here?

Maybe I'm slow, but isn't it supposed to be the other way round... hard center, soft and chewy on the outside???

Ignatius
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:30 PM   #50
DH
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Dan Wrote:
I have only asked directed questions toward some of the more profound claims. such as martial effectiveness, that goes unanswered or undefined. I think they are reasonable questions.
Rob John, did step up a little bit and demonstrate some of how he sees it applicable. He also has not stepped out into the same area of claims that you have.
From all I have heard many that I have respected have come on line and said, they appreciate what they have seen and experienced and think that it will add value to their training.
There is a huge gap between that and words thrown around liberally such as martial effectiveness, MMA will evolve to this next level...etc. All I ask is HOW do you know this? HOW do you define effective? Why haven't we seen this in the UFC?

All reasonable and logical questions based on the some of the things that have been illuded to or outright presented.

That is all I am asking.

If not, please stick to telling us how we can better incorporate the skills into our current training without all the other flak and garbage that tends to confuse and rouse emotions.

I understand that it is probably a feeling thing, something that has to be experienced though.
I have answered you over and over you don't want to here it. Your teacher pursued me- now you are. There are hundreds of folks who know me, Kevin. I suggest you consider your credibility in pursuing me like this. You're not coming off very well.
If you really weren't on an agenda you'd not use the words to me you use. Like calling me ignorant, I don't understand distance or weapons, now "flak and garbage" and questioning over and over my martial effectiveness. And If I'm goaded to a strong response,you can tell everyone -I'M- the bad guy
Really Kevin? Really?
Is that where you want to go with me.
We trained MMA style and have for 16 years when I was training these skills- I was training fighting skills,actually from back in high school Its all I've ever done pup.
Do I really care if you want to be a mini Sorrintino (your teacher) and call me out yet again? We all know how empty that was. Jim was wrong...so are you. If you are -honestly- curious you can at least ask the few guys from here who tried to freestlye throw me these last two weekends ...that is if you honestly care to hear their repeated opinion.
Respond here why you ignored their report about martial effectiveness_________________________________________

And Leave Rob out of this. He has limtied grappling experience and he has only been training this for three years.

Why isn't it in the UFC Are you kidding, Kevin.
Just when I have hope that you are being straight with me you ask these stupid questions. Since we both know you're not stupid-then please stop treating me like I am. These skills are not to be found anywhere in depth. And you have to both believe in them and then go train them to find them. To say they are not there yeat means they have no worth is so transparant I'm embarrased -for- you. I mean at least insult me with a finer argument..please.
As for internals in MMA Cartmell is, Rob is, I am, and I personally know of a 6' 9" CMA guy with these skills-who is a friend of Lidell who is training to use them as well. Last time I checked no one gave a ______ about convincing Kevin Leavitt.
Be nice Kevin. Don't do this stuff. Just say you don't believe these skills have martial crossover. Although you can't see it- your embarrasing yourself and your teachers...again.

167th time to the mentally challenged
The skills are tailer made for AIki-do as the are the essence of aiki
These skills are tailer made for MMA as they impart great structural strength without flexation thus increasing sensitivity as well as great kicks and strikes. But they donlt teach you how to fight. You have to learn the skills and then learn how to fight. Two different topics.
Kevin
This is where you ask for the 168th time
"Are they martialy viable? How?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-11-2007 at 07:37 PM.
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