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Old 03-09-2007, 10:39 AM   #101
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Mike, I am not dissing internal guys and what they do. Only asking for a clarification concerning your hypothesis concerning the evolution of external, to BJJ as seen in the UFC, to MMA, to internal arts of CMA.
Well, the "internal guys" marginalization was actually in Kit's post, Kevin... and you may not have understood my reference to it if you didn't see my comments in reply to his post. My main point was that I doubt that he's actually seen a good 'internal' martial artist and I encourage him to go see one of the better ones so that he can understand what he so casually included in his comparison.
Quote:
I have never said there was no value in the skills.

I don't agree witht the delineations that you place on the skills as being separate from things. Nor do I see how the hypothesis that this delineation of internal CMA applies. If it did, we'd be seeing it in some distnct way that would cross the boundaries of age, size, and so-called style/methodology of engagement.

We do see MMA guys getting better in their skills over all from striking, kicking, closing distance (maŠi), timing, grappling, use of body, center...all that good stuff.

So, do the exercises you teach and have obvisouly done quite successful apply. I absolutely think they do.

I just don't understand why you have to go so far as to lay claim that they are so materially important that they will transcend and greatly change what is already being done in MMA.

I don't think we will ever see such a distinction as you state, only MMA guys evolving to be more efficient. However, because we have to have rules in training and in competition, that evolvement will always be somewhat stunted, as it will gravitate to not the BEST way to fight, but one that is simply good enough to win.
Kevin, I feel like we have the same discussion over and over with you and it cycles from you finally saying that you'll have to go look while witholding your opinion to your re-start with where you don't see the value in it. The same thing has been explained over and over again.... it IS NOT a sure-fire fight ender, but it's a great aid. You need to go see it and decide if it is an aid. Ueshiba and 3 Bazillion other Asians thought it was such an aid that they made almost a religion out of it for about 3,000 years, but who knows.... MMA may have surpassed it.

Rather than go through the same conversation again, why not let's wait until you can meet someone and discuss it. Bear in mind that my perspective is from what I have seen (and learned a tiny part of) in some of the world's big names in these skills, but I have not personally met Dan and some of the others, so I'm remaining neutral about exactly who you meet (although Dan's description indicate very strongly that he can use jin and I'd put my chips on that bet). Still, you need to go get an idea of what we're talking about before we start another round of discussions about the same subject and then end up in the same place again.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 03-09-2007, 11:08 AM   #102
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Mike Sigman Wrote:

Quote:
like MMA. I watch it. I think sport martial arts are *really* improving and I'm honestly tickled to death about it. But think back a second to the past: The judo/karate/TKD/WC/etc. guys all thought they were the last word in martial arts (forget CMA guys... I have yet to meet a single westerner that really does CMA's, despite all their uniforms and words). Then along comes Royce and Bros and it all changes. BJJ was the last word. Then some people starting compounding skills and you get MMA's... they're now the latest word. You think it's the last word? I don't.

I only have a mainly hobby interest anymore in martial arts and I tend to focus on learning how these odd body skills are done. I don't worry about whose butt I can kick anymore.... but not from the position that I've never done it; because I have done it and it doesn't have that testosterone Macho Banty Rooster appeal anymore. There are still some skills that I see hidden in some of the CMA's that are not in MMA's yet and they would be more than "anti-grappling". I've seen guys put their hands through the sides of 55-gallon drums. I've been hit by guys that have trained some way I still can't decipher but it's definitely one-punch-and-you're-done stuff. MMA's haven't got that, even though they're progressing.
Based on what I bolded the inference is there is it not?

Quote:
it IS NOT a sure-fire fight ender, but it's a great aid. You need to go see it and decide if it is an aid. Ueshiba and 3 Bazillion other Asians thought it was such an aid that they made almost a religion out of it for about 3,000 years, but who knows.... MMA may have surpassed it.
Your confusing me Mike.

I agree, I am going to train with you or somewhat like you.

Your simply confusing me with all this other static.

The only reason I keep saying we keep having the same conversations is that you guys have this pack mentality towards this stuff, jump off the cliff with it, then someone says...what the ****. Then you say "just kidding"." that is not what I said"., "you don't get it".

Just discuss the salient issues at point without all the other hype and stuff and I am good to go with it.

 
Old 03-09-2007, 11:21 AM   #103
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Dan overall I agree with your post.

What exactly do you mean by this?

Quote:
I don't like seeing the new form of ignorance being spouted by folks just "discovering grappling" now who are mixing in a little BJJ or Judo ne-waza with their aikido.
What are the forms of ignorance as you see them?

Defaulting to the ground as the only solution?

Fuly committed throws? Sacrifice throws?

I also see your last paragraph concerning blending, moving, timing, irimi and all that being just waza. I think I see your perspective a little clearer on this. You isolate the internal from this.

I think the difference in us is that I cannot see how you can separate any waza or form of appropriate response from the internal, movement and response must be apart of it.

As a training methodology, I can visualize how you might isolate movement such as in kokyu tanden ho exercise so you can work on internal movement. Absolutely.

It makes a little more sense to me at this point.

 
Old 03-09-2007, 11:34 AM   #104
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Rob wrote:

Quote:
Kevin,
I agree that that particular video isn't exactly a sterling example,
that being said, I thought the fact that it being Miyagawa's first time ever going to the ground, would illustrate my point just a bit. Generally people with no grappling experience get tooled on the ground, and Miyagawa can pretty much hang with people that have several more years experience of him.

Glad you liked some of his movement, he never learned them as "techniques" persay but they'Re simply a result of him moving according to maintaing principle within his body.

About him placing his hand on the guys neck, he wasn't actually placing his weight there
(Though you can do that too) Generally we try and "ghost" on top of the guy, and control him without him realizing it. (He doesnt know he's being controlled until he tries to move)
Knowing that bit of knowledge about being his first time down on the ground is respectful how he handles himself. Normally you see guys spaz out and start pulling away, or moving their hips away.

Personally I love it when guys move their hips back out of the way and fail to stay in correct alignment. All kinds of fun things you can do at that point.

As far as the ghosting thing goes. I have been spending some time working with my guys on that very thing. It freaks them out when they cannot reference you anywhere. You are free to move around them and they do not know how to respond! I try and do this without using my hands or feet to lock them down or grab, simply use my body.

Unfortunately, I simply do not possess the teaching skill or have the time to teach them how to do this, I learned this from doing aikido mainly. They want to know how, and I can only show them some rudimentary aikido exercises, but they cannot see the connection to ground fighting.

One thing that has been helpful in having them roll in contact with one of those big exercise balls, maintaining contact and balance as they move around the ball, shifting weight in different planes and connecting breathing.

 
Old 03-09-2007, 03:43 PM   #105
statisticool
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Rather than go through the same conversation again, why not let's wait until you can meet someone and discuss it.
I wonder if you'll say that he didn't really meet the 'real deal' if he sees an internal martial artists in action and comes back unimpressed?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
 
Old 03-09-2007, 05:12 PM   #106
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
He knows nothing, but has an obsession with Mike to the point of an insulting sig (which is supposed to be an amusing quote from Mike, but actually just points out that he doesn't understand what "keep weight underside" means), insulting references on his web site about Mike, and links to another know-nothing jerkoff's old opinions-from-afar about what Mike does.
Pete, I'm wondering why you view it as insulting (at the same time throw several of your own insults in the mix)? I'm also wondering how you know it is "from afar" as you claim. The person in question actually went to several workshops.
.
Then of course, since you are apparently concerned about insults, you should actually have a (critical) look at what the person who you claim is being insulted has said -which are much worse things than mere skeptical criticism.

Quote:
Why talk to a guy who shows blatant disrespect for you, Mike, Dan, or anybody else working to make this stuff accessible?
I'm more concerned about blatent disrespect for martial arts, like claiming something like one must master these qi/ki/jin/kokyu skills to really be practicing taiji, for example, from people who don't have taiji lineage or permission to teach, and don't even attend formal aikido or taiji classes at all or on a regular basis.

One might as well go to an auto mechanic for experience on Nascar racing.

Quote:
Your call, but to me a dog doesn't deserve a bone when his actions have earned him nothing but a kick in the yap.
How very aiki of you?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
 
Old 03-09-2007, 05:28 PM   #107
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
The person in question actually went to several workshops.
That's a lie. Stephen J. Goodson, a Cheng Man Ching fellow-cultist of yours, never went to a workshop of mine. He based his silly analysis on his website purely on the comments of a beginner who actually was at a workshop.... but a beginner who publicly repudiated and chastised Goodson as a moron for posting such drivel.
Quote:
I'm more concerned about blatent disrespect for martial arts,
Oh stoppit. No one watching you stalk me around this forum is going to do anything but chuckle at you and Cheng Man Ching cultists when they read that inanity.

Mike Sigman (Yes, I know, I'm not being "respectful" of his comments)
 
Old 03-09-2007, 08:17 PM   #108
statisticool
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That's a lie. Stephen J. Goodson, a Cheng Man Ching fellow-cultist of yours, never went to a workshop of mine.
That's the strangest defintion of cult I've ever seen. I'd think a smaller group who gets more agitated when examined would tend to fit the bill a little closer.

I don't know about a "lie". I heard it from a source I consider valid. You know, just like when you make some pronouncements based on a non-revealed source that you consider valid.

Quote:
No one watching you stalk me around this forum is going to do anything but chuckle at you and Cheng Man Ching cultists when they read that inanity.
Again, a strange definition of 'stalk'. I'm not sure how responding to Pete or you on a public bulletin board, especially when I am directly asked questions, is stalking.

But I think even you can see why the claim of something like one must master these qi/ki/jin/kokyu skills to really be practicing taiji, coming from people who don't have taiji lineage or permission to teach, and don't even attend formal aikido or taiji classes at all or on a regular basis, doesn't hold much weight.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
 
Old 03-09-2007, 09:35 PM   #109
Upyu
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
That's the strangest defintion of cult I've ever seen. I'd think a smaller group who gets more agitated when examined would tend to fit the bill a little closer.

I don't know about a "lie". I heard it from a source I consider valid. You know, just like when you make some pronouncements based on a non-revealed source that you consider valid.

Again, a strange definition of 'stalk'. I'm not sure how responding to Pete or you on a public bulletin board, especially when I am directly asked questions, is stalking.

But I think even you can see why the claim of something like one must master these qi/ki/jin/kokyu skills to really be practicing taiji, coming from people who don't have taiji lineage or permission to teach, and don't even attend formal aikido or taiji classes at all or on a regular basis, doesn't hold much weight.
Yap yap yap, all day long, yap yap yap while I sing this song...

So uh Justine,
How come you didn't show up to the Seminar in Virginia and crash the party?
Or even show up with some backup? I mean, since you're so chivalrous and about about setting us wayward asses straight on MAs.
 
Old 03-09-2007, 09:36 PM   #110
akiy
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

This thread has gone too far into discussions of a personal nature.

Thread closed.

-- Jun

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