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Old 03-04-2007, 09:09 AM   #826
mjchip
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Where and by who would it be excepted as "good" Aikido?
For that matter considering how many decry their aikido is different from this or that Aikido-just how much deviation is tolerated before it is no longer recognized as Aikido? And By whom?
In light of the aikikai's loose position that they are the true Aikido of Ueshiba (which if they really wanted to be traditional is actually Ueshiba-ha Daito ryu) who can accept or deny "standards?"
Are there any?
Cheers
Dan
Not to be a "nidge" (BTW, that the heck is a "nidge"), what I said was "good *aikido* ukemi" and not "good *aikido*". The reason I said *aikido* ukemi is because I wanted to emphasize that I was taking about ukemi in the traditional aikido training paradigm.

To answer your question, where and who? I was giving my personal opinion of what I feel would be good ukemi within the training paradigm as we practice in the Birankai. To me that means being centered, connected, sensitive, and alive, attacking with commitment, receiving and absorbing nage's power and controlling ones own body throughout the encounter.

Rarely will you see us take big unnecessary falls. We try to connect and remain connected until it is no longer possible. We typically receive power right up to the point where we lose our balance and then we fall but we don't bail, jump, fly, etc.. In general it looks sort of like what Kevin was describing. I just realized that I suck at writing......

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 03-04-2007 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:10 AM   #827
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

One of the interesting books that I like (apologies, I know I've mentioned it before) is Koichi Tohei's "This is Aikido". One of the really interesting things is that this book was published while Tohei was the head instructor for Aikido and Ueshiba was still alive as his boss. The split from Aikido by Tohei had not happened yet.

So this book lays out a lot about the "baseline skills". In fact, there are numerous illustrations of Tohei checking uke's posture for static kokyu power in this book. The same static illustrations that Ueshiba Sensei would use in demo's.

Now no traditional head of an organization would have blatantly published a book that contained material different from what the living founder espoused and did himself. So that book is a good base-point from which to judge a lot of what is correct in Aikido. Discussions about techiques, ukemi, and kokyu power can probably be argued much more easily from the perspective of the very strongly-established base-point of information and resource.

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:24 AM   #828
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote: View Post
Not to be a "nidge" (BTW, that the heck is a "nidge"),
http://www.asinine.com/essays/yiddish.html
Scroll down to "nudge" (pronounced "nudzh" or "noodj")
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:32 AM   #829
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote: View Post
I wanted to emphasize that I was taking about ukemi in the traditional aikido training paradigm.

To answer your question, where and who? I was giving my personal opinion of what I feel would be good ukemi within the training paradigm as we practice in the Birankai. To me that means being centered, connected, sensitive, and alive, attacking with commitment, receiving and absorbing nage's power and controlling ones own body throughout the encounter. This sounded to me like what Kevin was describing.

Mark
HI Mark.
Cady corrected my spelling.....hasty hasty. What is spell check and what does it do?

I'll let Kevin speak for himself.
To me it sounded like he was making a comparison to grappling skills and his concern of how it would be to go back and do aikido ukemi.
Whether or not his point it raised questions of interest to me
Grappling skills like; bringing the opponent into his guard, dragging him, etc. VS the traditional Ukemi you were talking about.
I was carrying that forward- not changing the subject per se- and expanding on that to an obvious conclusion that is not often thought through to it logical end.
Were he to start doing the active-response as in grappling.
1. The "ukemi" would be different....yes agreed.
2. It would seriously alter and change the way Nage would have to respond.
3. At a point -depending on a grapplers skill level-the interchange- energy exchange for want of a better term- would look so drastically different that it would start to look VERY different from Aikido.
4. At what point is it "perceived" as no longer Aikido? By whom?
A point which Kevin Addressed when he talked about being concerned when he returned to Aikido in the summer.

So do we Kevin now allowed to freely express -HIS- Aikido?
In line with Ueshiba's mandate?
What would it look like?
Who would/could judge?
At what point would he be allowed to express, stand alone, or...be asked to leave?

Again I argue on two fronts
1. I think my discussions of active resistent Ukemi, taken to their logical conclusions, lead to some very difficult paradigms for your average Aikidoka in facing MMA- the great equalizer.
2. I think the base line internal skills offer the single greatest edge to what has largely become a rather empty shell of DR waza.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-04-2007 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:36 AM   #830
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

I noticed last summer when I was back at my dojo that my ukemi had actually gotten much better from my grappling/bjj experience. I tended to follow through a little more and stay with nage a little more actively than I might have in the past.

Ironically I think I have gotten a a little softer and controlled with my ukemi (at least I hope so).

Mike Sigman probably can comment on the Ukemi at Aikido of Northern VA since he worked with a bunch of those guys there.

We (or I at least), try and be fairly alive and active throughout ukemi to the point of totaly dominance and control, if you don't get it, then I am coming back up again for the next round.

That said, we don't beat up those of less skill, but work with them, and yes, sometimes it involves guiding them through the dynamic and "letting them experience".

I think Mark has it about right as you can on a forum.

One thing that will be difficult I think is shomenuchi and yokomenuchi techniques for me. (always caused me problems). These are very challenging as you form the relationship from way far out and there is sooo much that is assumed (or not) about uke/nage relationship leading up until the point of impact/commital. In many ways shomen/yokomen do require you to move big, at least move your feet in a big way to the correct position.

THEN you have to transistion to the touch/hands on phase that physically influences the situation!

Lots of opportunity, lots of room for failure

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Old 03-04-2007, 11:31 AM   #831
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
We (or I at least), try and be fairly alive and active throughout ukemi to the point of totaly dominance and control, if you don't get it, then I am coming back up again for the next round.

That said, we don't beat up those of less skill, but work with them, and yes, sometimes it involves guiding them through the dynamic and "letting them experience".
Now thats interesting. So your Ukes can keep attacking back if nage- as you say- "doesn't get it?"
So were someone to be Uke and just stand there and stop everything Nage does and then turns the tables on nage and "gently guides nage through a dynamic to let him experience... Aiki power....
That it is allowed and even admired?

Were a person to do so and stop everyone in the dojo from doing anything in the Aikido syllabus..And remain on their feet and sound, what does that mean?
What would that person be doing?
Can you give it a name?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
One thing that will be difficult I think is shomenuchi and yokomenuchi techniques for me. (always caused me problems). These are very challenging as you form the relationship from way far out and there is sooo much that is assumed (or not) about uke/nage relationship leading up until the point of impact/commital. In many ways shomen/yokomen do require you to move big, at least move your feet in a big way to the correct position.
Why?
It seems to me that someone of reasonable skill in "Aiki" wouldn't need to move their feet to make "bigger" motionsl. Their uke would.
May I ask-why do you need to move in big leg motions to "make a connection?"
What on earth are you moving around for?
Perhaps we haven't been talking about the same thing after all.
I've been talking about Aiki. Perhaps levels of which are not openly known.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-04-2007 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 12:19 PM   #832
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hey Pete!!!!

There ya go
MMA....as grad school...........at 43.
And no career injuries!

What do we say about sooooo many 30 and 40 somethings in Aikido with so many injuries? Aikido is more harmful to your body!
I wonder why?
We need Ukemi... why again?
Seems baseline skills should include...actually...fighting back.
Now there's a thought.
Who was the guy who advocated full-resistence as a different and far safer body dynamic in ukemi?

A whimpy 51 yr old
Dan
Funny you mention that, the only serious injury I've ever incurred was from taking ukemi in Aikido class. Took years to recover and my shoulder will probably never be the same. Definitely wasn't worth it from a martial perspective.

My complaint about BJJ and MMA nowadays though is that as you get older, your body doesn't recover as quickly, and going through deathmatches with 20-somethings on steroids who can bench press a car tends to get old. It's unnecessary and even counterproductive to train that hard, but unless you can choose your training partners that's what you have to deal with in typical group classes. But, the point is that Aikido forces you to take a substantial injury risk for little to no martial payoff.
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Old 03-04-2007, 01:18 PM   #833
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Re: Baseline skillset

Dan, I think you are getting over analytical about all this.

Have you actually worked in an Aikido dojo for any length of time??? If so, it would seem you would understand the dynamic that is present in that methodology and learning environment.

I will kinda paint myself into a corner a little bit here and be over stereotypical...so keep this in mind as I proceed.

In my experiences, aikido tends to isolate out much of the static that we tend to call aliveness and sets up a controlled set of parameters that offer only very few variables in which to correctly learn some of the basics such as body alignment, movement, space, timing in realationship to each other.

Attacks are technically and tactically correct albeit the speed, although they are somewhat modified for training. (shomen/yokomen uchi).

We will typically assume a balance ma'ai in which both uke and nage know what is coming and they are equal in their knowledge.

So, if I am doing a same side wrist grab, I should not have to over extend myself to grab the wrist placing myself initially off balance, it is up to nage to move appropriately to my attack. If he does not...say he proceeds to stand there, then I am free to respond with the next follow through which may be to use the other hand for a light atemi, enough to show him his mistake.

Lets say he moves, but unbalances, and I still have my balance, he moves and tries to throw me, I could ride him down and again show him that he is not correct in what he is doing.

We would NOT proceed to grapple or struggle, as that would not be the point of studying the initial point of entry and response.

That is what aikido is about in this scenario.

If you have watched the Matt Thorton analogy on learning to play chess by doing the same move over and over...I think this is somewhat analogous to that in a way.

It is not necessarily alive in the sense of spontaneous technique and control, but it is also not as bad as Thornton would like us to think as it does teach and reinforce some correct principles.

I would submit that you need to do both.

Problem is from a grappling paradigm we are training one range (range), from an aikido paradigm we are training another range (mid range).

I think the division between these two ranges was created for philosophical reasons to convey the DO of aikido, which really is about transcending the physical anyway. (another thread all together, but salient to the discussion).

Now..on to stopping everyone in the dojo.

We have all probably experienced the guy that shows up at the dojo and simply grabs and plants, or fights back to thwart your technique. They may do it to be spiteful, although most of the time it is due to lack of understanding of the dynamic we are training.

We could just sit there and stare at each other all day, or I could hit him to make him recognize the error of him just standing there with all his KI focused on that single point!

Remember we have eliminated so much in the exercise!

Dan, if I had to give it a name, I suppose I would simply call it ""grabbing and standing there". or ignorance.

Anyone can stop any aikido technique we are practicing if that is their goal. it is a fake set of parameters that we have established for training.

I think the issue many times is that we really don't know what we are training. When I do shomenuchi iriminage, I am not training the overhead strike, or the whole technique of enter, spin, twirl, dump, and pin. I am training moving my Freakin feet and body as a unit and correctly aligning my center back on uke. If I am nage I am training to move on an angle of attack, keeping my hips and spine aligned and then trying to keep them that way and recover while nage in responding.

It is all about correct alignment, balance and the realationship to each other. It ain't about the technique.

Once we have done that, or failed that...well, then we have no reason to continue on.

So, if uke wants to do something stupid, or not correctly in response, well then I have an obligation to show him why it does not work. It can be done in many ways.

In aikido we are fairly polite about it. one, we can show him what the other response would be to the set of conditions he has presented that is contrary to the one the instructor wanted.

we can ask the instructor to come over an help.

We can do it four times then switch, then politely bow and wait for a new partner.

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Old 03-04-2007, 01:25 PM   #834
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
We could just sit there and stare at each other all day, or I could hit him to make him recognize the error of him just standing there with all his KI focused on that single point!

Remember we have eliminated so much in the exercise!

Dan, if I had to give it a name, I suppose I would simply call it ""grabbing and standing there". or ignorance.
Not to pick on you nor to take Dan's side, Kevin, but I know that's not what Dan is talking about at all. So your debate is operating from a misunderstanding of the subject.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-04-2007, 01:47 PM   #835
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Dan wrote:

Quote:
Why?
It seems to me that someone of reasonable skill in "Aiki" wouldn't need to move their feet to make "bigger" motionsl. Their uke would.
May I ask-why do you need to move in big leg motions to "make a connection?"
What on earth are you moving around for?
Perhaps we haven't been talking about the same thing after all.
I've been talking about Aiki. Perhaps levels of which are not openly known.
If I said BIGGER that is not what I meant.

I certainly understand what you are illuding to. especially when you are talking about kokyu etc. Certainly as your skill increases you can allow uke to enter into your sphere and be more responsive. I train this way pretty much all the time...not good at it though.

So why move "big"? I didn't say move big, but lets play in that range for a while....

shomenuchi is a big attack in which range is closed quite quickly. it could be a knife, stick, or maybe a kick, or something like that. I don't need to move big, but I do need to move on the 45 degree angle (irimi) and then realign my center with uke (tenkan).

From my perspective, I look at this as mid range training.

your irimi must be appropriate for what you are facing. You do want to maintain as tight as control to uke as you can. Big movement typically means you are disconnected and if you don't do it right, well you are only going to have to fight to regain the distance you just closed again on uke's counter.

Dan, I am really getting concerned about your knowledge of controlling space appropriately.

I have no doubt that you can work these internal skills by standing there and working all that stuff from a standing position from what I have heard.

In real life though it don't make sense to assume the risk of not moving yourself out of the line of attack.

I train soldiers in all ranges of individual combat.

I train them for shooting weapons long and close range. (long range)

I train them for too close to shoot, but blunt objects are available (mid range).

I train them for too close to shoot, but they are on the ground. (close range).

In mid range you move your feet. You move off the line of attack, off balance your opponent, strike/immobilize, and move on.

Why on earth in mid range would you want to stand there and play push hands with your opponent just because you can???

It is a risk that is stupid to assume in a fight when there are other things that mitigate that risk much more efficiently.

Like I said you and I look at the realitive value of the various concepts in martial arts training with different priorities. Your post clearly demonstrates that to me.

Apparently you have figured out one small thing in the spectrum of martial skill, that is the so-called internal piece.

It is great to be able to play pat-a-cake push hands, and go g-whiz demonstrating a useful tool in the spectrum.

However, the martial spectrum is a much bigger dynamic than nut hugging on the ground, or doing the kokyu/Jin/push hand thing.

To me the skills you talk about are the equivilant of the kid that figured out how to create nuclear fusion in his basement.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/no...sion_basement/


Yes, he did decode a huge secret. Yes it is important. Yes those that want to know are definitely intrigued and want to know how to do it.

However, being able to create nuclear fusion and being able to build an atomic bomb are two different things. there is a long jump in the process to get there.

Likewise, the things that are trained in aikido are important and should not be viewed judgementally through one set of lenses or value system that you understand through your skill set. There is much more going on than I think you understand.

If I am wrong in my understanding of what you are saying let me know.

Kevin

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 03-04-2007 at 01:49 PM.

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Old 03-04-2007, 01:53 PM   #836
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Pete,

I hear ya on the 20 somethings! I don't have too much issue with them, but stamina wise it is hard to keep up with them. There is no way I can beat them.

About 6 months ago I had to fight a young white belt in an open tournament. It was no pont, submission, no time tournament. I easily outskilled the kid, but it took me 15 minutes to get him where I could do something with him. He was just so damn quick and I am so damn slow!

Latent ecovery time definitely is not what it used to be!

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Old 03-04-2007, 05:55 PM   #837
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

This weekend I found out I have nothing of substance to add to this thread, but I'm going to say something anyway.

Kevin, Dan and what he described does not fit the scenario's you proferred. Once you touch hands with him, you'll know why. And you will understand...simply from grabbing him, trying to move him, feeling him. I don't agree with all of Dan's opinions, but I now understand why he has them. They are based in reality.

I don't think there is any point in trying to describe this to someone who has not felt it. Even if they think they have a clue (as I did), they will not.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-04-2007, 06:19 PM   #838
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
This weekend I found out I have nothing of substance to add to this thread, but I'm going to say something anyway.

Kevin, Dan and what he described does not fit the scenario's you proferred. Once you touch hands with him, you'll know why. And you will understand...simply from grabbing him, trying to move him, feeling him. I don't agree with all of Dan's opinions, but I now understand why he has them. They are based in reality.

I don't think there is any point in trying to describe this to someone who has not felt it. Even if they think they have a clue (as I did), they will not.
So, Ron, let me ask your opinion on a few things.

As people removed from the pecking order, organizations, and the need to please or draw Aikido students, some of the posters on the forum are in a unique place to contribute to some potentially progressive discussions, regardless of varying opinions pro or con among different people within the fold of Aikido. So we're in a different place than you and can speak freely.... but what do you think should be done about this new/old data that Tohei tried to stress, Abe stresses, and others stress?

Now that you get a feel for it, you can see that a number of questions are raised about how to move forward, potential obstacles within various Aikido organizations, and so on. Other questions are raised about who knew what and when, who simply didn't know, who "couldn't communicate", whose feathers might be ruffled if certain paths of action are initiated, and so on. You can see the complexities. Naturally, you can't speak as bluntly as some of us off to the side, but I'd be interested in hearing you mull over the ramifications.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:01 PM   #839
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Ron,

I understand what you are saying. The issue is, that there are several different ranges.

Dan is working very closely within one range of a very narrow set of parameters I feel. No issue there.

However, in the greater scheme of things, there are situations and ranges in which are not concerned with the the range Dan is addressing.

Unless we are talking about Ki projection and throwing ki balls now!

Yes, I am all over what he is addressing, and I am in receive mode for that.

My comments several post back where in reply to another post that were not addressing the same things Dan is discussing.

Are you proposing that it is more appropriate to stand there and perform these internal skills, as real and as viable as they are, over moving your feet and body out of the line of attack?

Maybe I don't understand what is being said here?

Again, I have no issue with this stuff on the close range, I am all about that.

There are other ranges though correct???

I understand that these things do apply in these ranges as well, but, in some cases, we may not need to fully engage.

(this is hard to discuss without being in person and seeing it for sure!)

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Old 03-04-2007, 07:07 PM   #840
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Another thought Ron.

I can understand Dan has the opinions and understanding he has as well I think. It is working for him within the set of parameters/conditions in which he is training.

What if I don't want to grab him? What if there are blunt object type weapons like sticks involved? What if I don't accept the range in which he wants to establish the boundaries of our realationship?

No I don't doubt his opinions are based on reality. However reality is a complicated thing, there are many paradigms associated with it.

Looking forward to working with one of these guys, so I can better understand for sure!

Ron, thanks for trying anyway!

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Old 03-04-2007, 07:07 PM   #841
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
However, in the greater scheme of things, there are situations and ranges in which are not concerned with the the range Dan is addressing.

Unless we are talking about Ki projection and throwing ki balls now!
Hmmmmm.... what art do you do that affects people at a distance, Kevin? I don't know of any, in reality, so that's outside of the discussion. Any range you work at, this type of strength can work at.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 03-04-2007, 08:10 PM   #842
Upyu
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Are you proposing that it is more appropriate to stand there and perform these internal skills, as real and as viable as they are, over moving your feet and body out of the line of attack?

Maybe I don't understand what is being said here?

There are other ranges though correct???
Kevin:
This stuff affects your body at a fundamental level, hence it'll affect how you move through all ranges.
No one ever said you don't have to move your feet and body out of the line of attack. (and I don't mean that in a snide way ^^ But if you do move them out of the line of attack they should be a result of the movement and intent "inside" your body.
Actually, I've been knocking ideas back and forth between some of my friends who've been experimenting with using some of this stuff when they fire guns at the range, including using a shot gun to shoot clay pigeons.

If moving the body in a connected or "suit" manner ( Mike Sigman ) is more efficient in general, then there's no reason it shouldn't improve other facets of human movement, including carrying heavy objects/packs(something Ark likes to demonstrate frequently) effortlessly, running, shooting, climbing etc etc.

My two cents.
Rob
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:24 PM   #843
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Dan, I think you are getting over analytical about all this.
Actually I haven't been overanalytical. I have been very straighforward. Even blunt. I have asked you many questions in the previous posts You haven't answered any of them in a mutually direct way.
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Have you actually worked in an Aikido dojo for any length of time??? If so, it would seem you would understand the dynamic that is present in that methodology and learning environment.
Yes. I found no one, or no thing, to keep my interest. I am quite familiar with your methods and techniques also what you deem to be a dynamic. They were meant to work with internal skills which produce Aiki. Without it they are at best a weak jujutsu. The Aikido interpretations of what "Aiki" is- that I've seen- are external principles of movement. Much like what you've expressed in all your posts to date. That isn't it.
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
So, if I am doing a same side wrist grab, I should not have to over extend myself to grab the wrist placing myself initially off balance, it is up to nage to move appropriately to my attack. If he does not...say he proceeds to stand there, then I am free to respond with the next follow through which may be to use the other hand for a light atemi, enough to show him his mistake. Lets say he moves, but unbalances, and I still have my balance, he moves and tries to throw me, I could ride him down and again show him that he is not correct in what he is doing.
I hate to respond to this Aikido claptrap, but I like you and respect your intentions so what the hell.
If you grab my wrist or anything else in that training environment you're going to pop off me or be controlled by me. Your follow-through will be dealt with accordingly. Your single point theory is meaningless to me. I neither think nor move on that level. It's to slow. I prefer moving and fighting while flowing
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Problem is from a grappling paradigm we are training one range (range), from an aikido paradigm we are training another range (mid range). I think the division between these two ranges was created for philosophical reasons to convey the DO of aikido, which really is about transcending the physical anyway. (another thread all together, but salient to the discussion).
Well you're dead wrong in my opinion.
a. the difference in range is more discusion of tactics and has little to do with these skills.
b. I am converscent any way you want to play. Grapple, MMA with leather, swords and long weapons, knives or gun combatives. We can play and discuss all the day long. It would be fun to see if you can even keep a boken in your hands. I've lost track of the Aikido and Iai guys I have cut the bokuto right out of their hands.

You're missing the point all together though, Keven. I do what I do because it is a trained part of me. Distance, and weapons? Doesn't change me.
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Now..on to stopping everyone in the dojo.We have all probably experienced the guy that shows up at the dojo and simply grabs and plants, or fights back to thwart your technique. They may do it to be spiteful, although most of the time it is due to lack of understanding of the dynamic we are training. We could just sit there and stare at each other all day, or I could hit him to make him recognize the error of him just standing there with all his KI focused on that single point !
Dan, if I had to give it a name, I suppose I would simply call it ""grabbing and standing there". or ignorance.
Not to be rude. But the ignorance is soley your own.
I don't know why you talk about this stuff over and over with me. I discuss MMA and full resistance training and moving, judo type throw resistance training and heavy hand hitting and knees. Then separately I discuss static basic push training
Your response?
What does Kevin hear?
"Dan stands still. Its all he does. Static pushing and single point Ki."

So I'll ask another question-sure that you wont answer this directly either-
What is it about you that your don't hear me?
I USE THESE SKILLS FOR MMA TRAINING.
In your cooperative Aikido play (within those parameters) I won't try to stop your technique at a single point. Why bother? You will be doing everything you can to stop me from moving me...and you..wherever I want. And in a very...alive manner. Why...I might even move off-line....If you can give me a reason to!. But, even within those set parameters; the way I move me, and what is moving in me, will be different from how you are moving. And you'll know it.

I snipped the remaining martial art 101 descriptions as they are known by most everyone after a few months and done well by others in a few years...forgive me but ...yawn!
Your just shwoing your excellent understanding of your teachers material. No harm, no foul.
No disrespect but you didn't bother to answer my questions in the previous post. In the following posts you simply demonstrate that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
But lets stay friendly anyway.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-04-2007 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 11:22 PM   #844
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
Funny you mention that, the only serious injury I've ever incurred was from taking ukemi in Aikido class. Took years to recover and my shoulder will probably never be the same. Definitely wasn't worth it from a martial perspective.

My complaint about BJJ and MMA nowadays though is that as you get older, your body doesn't recover as quickly, and going through deathmatches with 20-somethings on steroids who can bench press a car tends to get old. It's unnecessary and even counterproductive to train that hard, but unless you can choose your training partners that's what you have to deal with in typical group classes. But, the point is that Aikido forces you to take a substantial injury risk for little to no martial payoff.
I'm sorry to hear about your injury Pete, those long-term things suck :-( Almost like my brain injury, but that's from birth. I'll recount a little here. When much younger, I trained hard in karate and aikido, lots of (different) warm-up and stretches before and after classes. Idea was always to develop stronger and faster "arms", and "legs", and also do lots of stomach and back strengthening exercises. But narry a thought to connecting all these body parts up coherently. I still injured hamstrings, got a sore left knee that put an end to my running.

In Japan I thought I'd improve with better classes, but the injuries got worse. Sitting more and more during work did not help. Years of pain, years of useless and contradictory medical advice. I knew I was talking to ignoramuses. I looked around, got advice from Mike Sigman, started ballroom dancing and met Akuzawa and Robert John. And from that moment on, I got better. After less than a year I could take up ballet as the pain receded and range of movement of the main joints in the hip and back improved.

Now, the knee pains have gone (every couple of weeks there is a set of fairly extensive clicks and shifts in muscle/tendon in a connected way in my body, and it gets a bit better), the problematic left side of the body is almost equalized with the right, and connections have tightened up (and at the same time become "unstuck" from the body) that as Robert John has said before, it is now possible to do stretches without a "warm-up".

I see many many "seniors" in the dojo with hip and back problems, showing me that they very emphatically do *not* know how their bodies work. I firmly believe that the lack of connection training in Aikido, an art which critically requires this with its large range of articulated movements, that causes so much mayhem in students' bodies. I would argue that even without proper internal training (as Mike Sigman, Dan Harden and Akuzawa might teach) any activity, such as serious dance, which does build connectivity, will help to reduce the possibilities of training injuries a great deal.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:44 AM   #845
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hi Mike,

First let me thank you for all the years of discussion through email and postings...much of this wouldn't be happening without your pushing.

Second, let me be blunt. Screw the ramifications. I won't be trying to break anyone's rice bowl. I'm going to do the best I can to learn this material and train. That's it. Just one more time I have to start over at the bottom. The organizations will take care of themselves, as they always have. If I am sucsessful in training and learning this material, and they want me to go elsewhere, I go elsewhere...if they allow me to train, I train.

Nothing more is needed.

Best,
Ron

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So, Ron, let me ask your opinion on a few things.

As people removed from the pecking order, organizations, and the need to please or draw Aikido students, some of the posters on the forum are in a unique place to contribute to some potentially progressive discussions, regardless of varying opinions pro or con among different people within the fold of Aikido. So we're in a different place than you and can speak freely.... but what do you think should be done about this new/old data that Tohei tried to stress, Abe stresses, and others stress?

Now that you get a feel for it, you can see that a number of questions are raised about how to move forward, potential obstacles within various Aikido organizations, and so on. Other questions are raised about who knew what and when, who simply didn't know, who "couldn't communicate", whose feathers might be ruffled if certain paths of action are initiated, and so on. You can see the complexities. Naturally, you can't speak as bluntly as some of us off to the side, but I'd be interested in hearing you mull over the ramifications.

Best.

Mike

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:50 AM   #846
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
What if I don't want to grab him? What if there are blunt object type weapons like sticks involved? What if I don't accept the range in which he wants to establish the boundaries of our realationship?
Hi Kevin,

Once you are in contact with people who do this you will understand. These skills apply at any range...you move with these skills. You use weapons with these skills. You do what ever you do with these skills. No ki balls needed. These skills won't defeat a bullet.

Ron, thanks for trying anyway! [/quote]

No problem.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:56 AM   #847
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Baseline skillset

For the record

Quote:
It would be fun to see if you can even keep a boken in your hands. I've lost track of the Aikido and Iai guys I have cut the bokuto right out of their hands.
Many of you have trained with me...you know I suck at weapons. But you also know I tend to hang on to my bokken.

Dan knocked my bokken across the room with no windup starting from less than a foot away. maybe less than six inches. Awesome power. And controlled.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:27 AM   #848
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
I looked around, got advice from Mike Sigman, started ballroom dancing and met Akuzawa and Robert John.
Let's clarify this one a little bit, Gernot. Just to be clear, I did NOT advise Gernot to take up ballroom dancing.... and if he spotted Rob John and Akuzawa dancing, I don't want to know about it.

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Old 03-05-2007, 08:28 AM   #849
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

I loved that Gernot.
After meeting so many broken Martial artist its nice to be able to offer them a way to be more powerful and martially able then they have ever been in their lives..all while contributing to healing their bodies.
Now if I can just get them grapple and -actually- fight back they wouldn't get as much long term damage, and be fighters to begin with.
Systema is doing some of that was well.
I mean really, there's no glory in Budo and no need for fighting any more. So any smart fella is going to look twoce at doing something where his knees get wrecked, his hips are shot and his back aches.
I looked at Judo, Iai, and DR and said "No thanks!" I'll take the body conditioning, Aiki and applied principles though, and then train them and burn em in, to fight back- using those very same things.
Active, fully resistent interplay with teaching the student to be your equal at all times and fight you back is-in the short term- a faster learning path to competency. In the long term a far more competant skill set. In the fullness of time, these things, taught with internal skills are the healthiest most competant way to make a martial guy something close to an artist at martial abilities and a healthy old dude still able to bang.

In the more casual world of untrained attacks or in "most" martial artists abilties you'll be able to easily cast off their every attempt with joy in your heart and smile on your face.
Now where have I read and seen that before..............?

I think its clear that Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, and Ueshiba..knew a better way, you don't. They were powerful old men.
Find it, and if your teachers really know but aren't telling.... beg. If they still won't tell you ..leave, go find it and go back and stop em in their tracks. When they ask how YOU did it. Tell THEM to keep doing waza... they'll figure it out. Just stop being training dummies and ruining your bodies and think.
Change the face of your Aikido and make it powerful.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-05-2007 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:30 AM   #850
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
First let me thank you for all the years of discussion through email and postings...much of this wouldn't be happening without your pushing.
Finally.... public recognition for being a horse's ass!
Quote:
Second, let me be blunt. Screw the ramifications. I won't be trying to break anyone's rice bowl. I'm going to do the best I can to learn this material and train. That's it. Just one more time I have to start over at the bottom. The organizations will take care of themselves, as they always have. If I am sucsessful in training and learning this material, and they want me to go elsewhere, I go elsewhere...if they allow me to train, I train.
Exactly my feeling. This is the stuff Ueshiba, Shioda, and others (it's a traditional comment in Asia) said was an investment for your old age. It's pretty damn handy in the here and now, too.

Thanks for the comment.

Mike
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