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Old 03-02-2007, 07:03 PM   #801
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

I've decided that my son and I are going to Aikido-Ai's annual Memorial Weekend Retreat at Mt. Baldy.
So I started to research some of the sensei's.
Teja Bell sensei looks like he might have some interesting stuff to teach about the "internal" arts.
http://www.puretimespace.com/tejabio.html
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Old 03-02-2007, 07:14 PM   #802
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

I'm assuming Jun will move "The Ricky Wood Thread" somewhere suitable.
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Old 03-02-2007, 07:29 PM   #803
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
... as much as I like my pet analogies it probably still won't convince someone like Mr. Mead that it really is different.
Try me.
Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
... Another reason is that just by writing so much from total vacuum, someone like Mr. Mead has unequivocally demonstrated that he will never bother to go meet anyone to actually experience what is being discussed. He's put it too much effort to risk what would inevitably happen, namely having to admit that Mike is right. Only people who are curious and are doers will bother to go take a look in person.
So nice to be fairly judged on the apparently indispensable basis of personal knowledge.
Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
To a person, everyone who has gone to investigate has come back saying, yup, these guys aren't BSing.
Apparently, you have the privilege of judging my ideas and observations without meeting me, but I do not have the same privilege. For the record, I have not said these guys are "BS-ing" or misrepresenting their abilities at all. I do not believe they have (or want) a proper mechanical understanding of what they are actually doing when they do it. That is a perfectly valid approach.

That does not make them wrong or lacking in competence. They only lack, as you do, a desire or interest in comprehending what we commonly describe as kokyu ho or kokyu ryoku from this perspective. I'll happily admit Mike is right and I am wrong on the mechanics if he wanted to describe a different physical mechanism that explains things more comprehensively, or that makes mine inadmissible. I'd gladly steal his ideas in that case, with no shame or ego lost. He doesn't, Dan doesn't -- and that is fine. I do.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-02-2007, 07:35 PM   #804
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Pete
Nice post and thanks for taking the time. We don't worry much about Eric or really any of the naysayers anymore. As I have mentioned here before the number of men who have felt the three of us and reported back the same or very similar experiences is just inescapable. Trust me when I tell you these men are as unconcerned about the naysayers as can be. I have a whole crew of guys driving from all over to train tomm. They are simply not concerned with their ego's or their training having been bereft of these skills. They need no convincing whatsoever. They are simply going to do the bodywork and fix it. And be the better for it.

It should be a fun 5 years or so, even better... a decade. In the fullness of time, these men, trained with these basics will be out among the AIkido and Judo community, raising the bar for everyone else.
So you are right in that these can be good times for those intent on research. And although I was saying all this on the Aikido list years ago it really was Mike and his constant prodding who dragged my sorry ass out into the open. So there is a measure of thanks due him for his efforts.

Your comments about MMA are true enough on many levels but those of us who were doing our own form of MMA for years, mixing Greco Roman, Judo and Muay Tai weren't doing it with rules in mind- just excellent fighting and research. I don't see any technical or tactical superiority in Aikido as a "grad school" (your quote) In fact all things being equal and were I in agreement with your point -I would be looking at Daito ryu to fulfill -that- role over Aikido. Did you really find Rickson's skills that much beneath Aikido that it would be a grad-school over his skills? As it is I see MMA as a great equalizer over many methods. Further-MMA with internal training? All the better.
You didn't mention whether or not you were going to pursue these skills in your MMA training.
Again great post and thanks
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-02-2007 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 03-02-2007, 09:22 PM   #805
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have a whole crew of guys driving from all over to train tomm. They are simply not concerned with their ego's or their training having been bereft of these skills. They need no convincing whatsoever. They are simply going to do the bodywork and fix it. And be the better for it. Dan
Some words my teacher once shared with me:

"Don't be stuck in a single way. Many people [of all levels] around you have things that you need. Look carefully at yourself, find the holes [in your skill set] and work on filling them."

As I'm no longer regularly exposed to my teacher, these words have an even greater relevance to me. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the body skills that are being discussed here, that I've felt with my own body, will "fill some holes" in my training that might have remained void for years and possibly even decades to come. This stuff is not an additive to good aikido......this stuff, in my humble opinion, IS good aikido or at the very least a proper foundation for good aikido.

I can't wait to train some more!

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 03-02-2007 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 03-02-2007, 09:41 PM   #806
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I'll happily admit Mike is right and I am wrong on the mechanics if he wanted to describe a different physical mechanism that explains things more comprehensively, or that makes mine inadmissible. I'd gladly steal his ideas in that case, with no shame or ego lost. He doesn't,
Actually, I did some fairly detailed and technical breakdowns, insofar as my understanding went, some years ago on the old Neijia List, Erick. However, the point I've made a few times is that I don't feel constrained to do more than give people an idea of the general picture anymore.... mainly because until someone gets a feel of what is happening, they simply can't get it. So all the complex descriptions I've done over the years have generally been for naught. You're the one who has been interested in detailed analyses.... frankly, the more I learn about these things, the more complex the picture gets and the less likely it seems that simplistic analyses are appropriate.

Besides, if I did explain it adequately, you'd just steal it.

Mike
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Old 03-03-2007, 03:50 AM   #807
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Re: Baseline skillset

Good post Pete. It helped me tremendously in my understanding and perspective.

I am really looking forward to the opportunity to study with one or all of these guys as soon as I can.

I have debated and tried to find the holes in this and all that.

However, on a base level, when I have a number of people that I know and respect come back on here, PM me, and say nothing negative and that it is what they say it is.....I have to accept it, even without empircal evidence and at least say: "you have my attention".

So, at this point, for me, I am now in "recieve" mode as it seems pointless to debate and argue further without my own set of experiences to understand it.

I personally only care about the mental/congitive level of understanding only so far as it helps me physically interpret things. Lets face it, martial arts is all about a physical, intuitive response.

We can understand it mentally and cognitively all we want to, however if we cannot translate it into a physcial demonstration then we have nothing.

I run into this all the time with Sr Officers that don't want to go to my training class prior to going down range. they look at the syllabus and say "M16/M4...okay I already know all about it, I don't need this training!"

So I throw the weapon out them and then say...okay sir..then show me how to load, clear and reduce stoppage with your eyes closed in the next 5 seconds...GO!".

They typically sheepishly look at me and say...okay...I will be there on monday.

There is a huge difference between cognitive understanding and intrinsic/intuitive understanding.

Like you and Dan kinda say. Aikido is like grad school. All theory and no practical experience...an excercise in the mental....but yet how many can actually translate that into a spontaneous physical response without having parameters and constraints placed around their skill in the dojo enviornment.

I am not talking street fighitng, simply a deeper understanding of the physical and the ability to control and respond and adapt.

Thanks again, for the wonderful post.

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Old 03-03-2007, 06:43 AM   #808
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hi Kevin
You'll have a blast with these skills. Pete is like you and me in that he likes to grapple. Rob is just getting started looking down that road as well. These skills work well in that venue too. You know I always argue on two fronts, internal skills and MMA. The reason I do is that it has been my experience that conventional MAers just can't overcome somone with these skills. But MMA is the great equalizer. Add the two...Internal skills and MMA? Booya!!.
I've also gone on record in that many martial artist are ignorant of how aware many grapplers are of body skills, use and application. Even in my younger days we would give many traditional MA'ers a wake up call- about wieght distribution, relaxation, quandrenting and seperation of mass, even the simple act of stretching through lock attempts.
For this reason I cannot help but address "Basline skills" without bringing up grappling and/or MMA. The fundentals of a good grappler, the experience in dealing with all out resistence will give anyone greater AIkido or DR skills.

A baseline skill set of Internal training and MMA is a formidibale combination.

As for the reports you are getting back. I am hopeful that they continue to be postive, at least in regards to Mike, Rob and me. Most sharp guys will learn from anyone. You don't have to like the guy who's got the stuff-you just train and get what you can. But it sure does help if the chap your learning from is affible and even funny. Budo is hard work, ya might as well have fun while you're doing it.

While we're on that subject. I've not much cared for the stuffy formal atmosphere I've found in AIkido dojo-giviing it an almost relogous flair. I've allways been more comfortable with the relaxed humor, sweat and confidance of capabe men. Odd that in the severl Koryu I have experienced ALL of them were faaaaar less formal than any single Aikido dojo I've been in {just in my experience}
By the early 90' I adoptyed a phrase from all these Aiki bow and scrape'ers
"In lue of substance
you frequently find formality."

Last thought
Remember, this stuff builds your body, instead of breaking it down. So there is an added benefit of strength and conditioning into your old age. There was a reason thst Takeda was so strong in his 80's. And Sagawa was tossing gold medal Judoka in his 70's. I met a Taiji guy who was 70 who was a freaking powerhouse of a guy. WIth a spirit as big as the outdoors. Hell of a way to grow old if you ask me. All around me I see broken down, overwheight, old men who often got "wrecked" from budo. I have my eye on a pleasant old age.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:54 AM   #809
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote: View Post
This stuff is not an additive to good aikido......this stuff, in my humble opinion, IS good aikido or at the very least a proper foundation for good aikido.
Mark
Not to be a nidge.
But this stuff is the basis of DR and it is the Basis for his Aikido.
Now that you felt it- is it any wonder Ueshiba said "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo!"
So the only fine point I would add is
its not really a "proper foundation for AIkido."
It...IS....Aiki....do.
The way of Aiki, is no way....without aiki. Otherwise it's just another pretzel-logic game. And not a very good one either.
These skills are the engine that drove it and gave it it's power.

See ya soon
Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-03-2007, 07:21 AM   #810
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Re: Baseline skillset

Thanks for the reply Dan.

I think you and I might put slightly different priorities and perspective on various aspects of things.

Not that we disagree of the validity of anything, just emphasis/priority.

I am glad you explained a little more in detail what you mean by MMA skills. I don't really label anything as MMA skills. There is MMA training, which to me, means an elimination of the various paradigms and walls typically associated with traditional study. Sort of in line with JKD philosophy.

To me skills are skills. To me there are a few different categories of types of skills. Ones that rely on correct alignment and an understanding of core principles. Then there are the ones that require strength. Apparently there are a third set that you all talk about, but I tend to lump into the core category.

I understand where you are coming from on the whole formality thing. I had this very conversation with a high ranking aikidoka last year and he did admit that the japaneseness does tend to get in the way some. that is the culture of politeness, respect (in the traditional sense, not in personal respect).

That said, I don't put a lot of thought into this. I like to train and just try and do my thing.

as far as realitive value concerning a 70 year old doing this stuff. I believe I will find value...but what is the realitive value? I don't know...but I don't think we agree on this.

IMM, if it was that important, we'd see 70 year olds trashing these young MMA guys every now and then, and we don't.

Thanks Dan.

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Old 03-03-2007, 08:14 AM   #811
Lee Salzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
To me skills are skills. To me there are a few different categories of types of skills. Ones that rely on correct alignment and an understanding of core principles. Then there are the ones that require strength. Apparently there are a third set that you all talk about, but I tend to lump into the core category
How about... correctly aligned strength (the "third set")? Strength is poo-poo'd a lot, but its everything under the sun between your mind, your muscles, and the signal routes between them. What happens if you spend as much time as many people spend on their aikido... perfecting those routes?
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Old 03-03-2007, 08:25 AM   #812
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
IMM, if it was that important, we'd see 70 year olds trashing these young MMA guys every now and then, and we don't.
Do we see 70-year-old MMA guys trashing young any-kind skilled martial artists? No? Then MMA must be completely useless.

A good story from the Oral History of Chen Village (Chenjiagou):
There was a story about Chen Jingbo going around Chenjiagou during the Qianlong years in which he was said to have killed "the Black Fox Tiger" . That morning in the eastern part of the town of Wenxian, in front of the temple at Guantaishan, a martial artist who went by the nickname Black Fox Tiger set up a place to perform with his weapons. Soon many people gathered round to watch the show. More and more people came as he whipped around his three-section staff making the air whistle. Then, using his feet, he kicked two swords into the air which he then caught with his hands. He slapped the swords twice, and then spoke: "Hello everyone, I have long heard of your honored land which is known as a fighting village, and has a reputation far and wide for its martial arts. Because of its fame I have come a long way in order to learn these arts. However, I have one requirement before bowing to a teacher."
He then pointed to a bowl of water on the ground and said: "When these swords start moving, nothing can get by them. Whoever can splash a drop of water from this bowl onto me, to him I am willing to bow before as my teacher." Saying this, he flourished his swords, coiling them around his body with a whoosh and a whirl. In the crowd was an old nightsoil collector from Chenjiagou by the name of Chen Jingbo. Standing at the outer edge of the throng, he was carrying a bucket of nightsoil and wearing an old tattered straw hat.
Chen Jingbo did not care for Black Fox Tiger's fierce, arrogant posturing. Then just as Black Fox Tiger was performing again with the sword, Chen grabbed an old rag, stepped quickly forward, stretched out his arm and placed his hat right on the head of Black Fox Tiger. He then turned and walked away. Knowing from this that Chne Jingbo was of a high level, "Black Fox Tiger" dropped his swords and chased after Chen Jingbo calling him 'Master' and kneeling down to kowtow. Chen Jingbo quickly pulled him up and admonished him, "Accomplished ones are not wild; the wild are not accomplished. Those who practise martial arts value sincerity and should not blow their own horn." Black Fox Tiger said yes, but inside he would not acknowledge defeat. When they parted he said to Chen Jingbo, "See you in three years."

In the blink of an eye three years had passed and Chen Jingbo was already an old man of eighty. Little did he know that in these three years Black Fox Tiger had been busy searching out famous teachers, and his gungfu had progressed considerably. One day Black Fox Tiger made a special visit to Chenjiagou to avenge his public humiliation. Upon hearing that Chen Jingbo had gone to a neighboring village to collect nightsoil, he headed west to meet up with him. He saw Jingbo approaching to the west of Changyang Monastery carrying his nightsoil, and went to head him off.
Chen Jingbo had totally forgotten the lesson he had given to Black Fox Tiger, and thinking this man wanted to know the way, asked: "Where are you going? Who are you looking for?" Black Fox Tiger answered, "Don't play dumb. I came here to find you. Let's go! I will tell you when we get to the temple." When the two entered the temple, Black Fox Tiger bolted the door and put a stone tablet against the door to secure it. He then turned to Chen and said, "Can you remember three years ago at the east of town you embarrassed me, Black Fox Tiger, in f ront of a crowd of people? Today I have come here to see who is better, and don't even think of leaving until you have given me satisfaction." Hearing this, everything suddenly became clear to Chen who then clasped his hands in front of his chest in salute, "That time I gave you honest advice because we are both martial artists. I had no intention of embarrassing you. Measuring one's level against others should be for the improvement of skill, and should not be done in anger or to injure. I am a withered old man of eighty, what kind of challenge am I for you?" Not waiting for Chen to finish speaking, Black Fox Tiger shouted harshly, " Quit wasting your breath! I vow to avenge my public humiliation; otherwise I cannot consider myself a man!" He then immediately attacked Chen Jingbo with three moves in quick succession: 'hungry tiger pounces on prey', 'ferocious tiger rips out the heart', and 'black tiger goes for the groin', all of which were avoided by Chen. For his fourth move, Black Fox Tiger went for a lethal throat hold with the intention of killing him. Chen Jingbo at that point lost his temper and said heatedly, 'I have taken three attacks from you, and we can consider that you have won. You are not satisfied with regaining your lost face? You can only push me so far.' Black Fox Tiger at that moment was incapable of listening to reason. His hands were already near the throat of Chen who, although slow to speak was swift just then; the only thing seen was Chen turning his body and issuing a shake which resulted in his shoulder striking the chest of Black Fox Tiger and sending him flying two meters high through the air. Black Fox Tiger cried out at the impact, and then his head crashed into the stone tablet which was leaning against the door, breaking the tablet in two, and his brains spilled onto the floor where he died.
Chen Jingbo was an old man of eighty, after all, and was not up to such exertions. Upon his return home he became ill, and within a few days passed away. Thus there is the story told in Chenjiagou down to the present of beating Black Fox Tiger to death, Chen Jingbo was exhausted to death.
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:33 AM   #813
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: Baseline skillset

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I do not believe they have (or want) a proper mechanical understanding of what they are actually doing when they do it....
That does not make them wrong or lacking in competence. They only lack, as you do, a desire or interest in comprehending what we commonly describe as kokyu ho or kokyu ryoku from this perspective.
And what you are doing, and fooling no one in the process, is attempting to equate your skill and knowledge with theirs. You can't provide a mechanical understanding, proper or not, of something they're doing when you don't know what they're doing or how to do it. You're trying to whitewash any difference between what you know and what they know, as if you have any idea what they know. It's ridiculous.

I won't give you another analogy of how things may work, but I will give you an analogy. You're like a miniature golfer who gets on a forum where Tiger Woods is trying to describe what he does to drive a golf ball halfway to the moon, and you have the nerve to insert yourself in the discussion via nitpicking his mechanical descriptions of how he achieves his results. In doing so you implicitly posture as if you can actually do what he does; no normal person would have the nerve to do that unless he were at a similar level of ability. And somehow the assembled golf enthusiasts who want to improve their game aren't supposed to notice this cry for attention.

Now analogies being what they are are never perfect, and Mike would be the first to admit he isn't in the Tiger Woods class of internal artists...but you get the idea. If you can't do what Rob, Mike, Dan, Akuzawa, etc. do, and you're all about trying to display superior knowledge of physics, it looks like a little kid going "me too me too!" and fooling no one. Apparently people are supposed to be impressed, instead of noticing you're three feet tall with peanut butter all over your face.
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:18 AM   #814
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post

Your comments about MMA are true enough on many levels but those of us who were doing our own form of MMA for years, mixing Greco Roman, Judo and Muay Tai weren't doing it with rules in mind- just excellent fighting and research. I don't see any technical or tactical superiority in Aikido as a "grad school" (your quote) In fact all things being equal and were I in agreement with your point -I would be looking at Daito ryu to fulfill -that- role over Aikido. Did you really find Rickson's skills that much beneath Aikido that it would be a grad-school over his skills? As it is I see MMA as a great equalizer over many methods. Further-MMA with internal training? All the better.
You didn't mention whether or not you were going to pursue these skills in your MMA training.
Again great post and thanks
Dan
Hi Dan, and thanks. I have no concern about naysayers either, I just find it amusing. The sensible people who will go take a look are the ones worth reaching, the naysayers just keep the conversation rolling, and build up the archives with a body of work that will haunt them later.

Analogies are never perfect, the "grad school" quote was to say that you probably won't learn to fight with Aikido, unless you could fight before studying Aikido. I suppose that could be read as, "Aikido and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee". In one sense I'd be hard pressed to argue against that. If you can fight, why bother doing Aikido at all? Maybe it's a good art to play with when you're too old to have a fighting career, and you want to work on your body skills in an easy way. Even then the typical Aikido class would be suboptimal, you'd need a group of guys with the real goods to make it worthwhile. It's a good question. Ueshiba took a certain path to get to what he had, and came to a point where it physically, philosophically, and spiritually gelled into something he liked. Perhaps the only way to get to a similar place nowadays is to follow a similar path, but using modern techniques combined with the body skills.

As you say, in light of modern MMA techniques, the technique arsenal of Aikido, the actual locks and whatnot, is totally inadequate. The information age has created a situation that old arts didn't face, which is ability to rapidly cross train and assimilate techniques. I am of course referring to technique in the external sense, divorced from body mechanics. The technical syllabus of Aikido doesn't address MMA at all, and that's no fault of Ueshiba.

Long story short, I'm in complete agreement with you, and I think Mike and others, that it's the body skills that count. I hadn't thought about it that deliberately because I was trying to throw Aikido a bone so to speak, but in the course of writing this response it's obviously correct...take what you can find of the body skills, and apply it to the modern technical syllabus. That renders Aikido completely useless except in the rare case that you could find a master with the real goods, so that you can improve some bodyskill aspect. Unless of course you're just in love with the actual technique of Aikido, which is a personal choice. For me, what is fascinating about the martial arts is that they are all clever methods created to solve an intractable problem, namely how to win against another intelligent being doing his best to beat you. The body skills, which I suspect originally derive from spear and other heavy weapons work, is one of the most clever and therefore secretive approaches.

To answer your other questions, no, there is nothing Rickson needs from Aikido technique, you can trust me on that one. I've also talked a bit to Rob about how Akuzawa's stuff applies to grappling, though as always I can't expect it to click until I actually get the chance to feel it. I do think internal skills could add to MMA both in general and specific ways, though that is a whole other discussion. It also forces the need to find faster ways to incorporate the skills than what the traditional decades-long training methods provide, and that's also a good thing. Fighting is for the young (with rare exceptions like Randy Couture, who I hope against hope will beat the tough-but-boring Tim Sylvia tonight), and I have no MMA aspirations at my point in life. I'll be happy to learn what I can and pass it on in what measure I can. At some point even the most skilled person is better as a coach than a competitor. Besides, it's just so much easier to sit on the couch with a beer and watch it on TV.
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:47 AM   #815
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Good post Pete. It helped me tremendously in my understanding and perspective.

I am really looking forward to the opportunity to study with one or all of these guys as soon as I can.

I have debated and tried to find the holes in this and all that.

However, on a base level, when I have a number of people that I know and respect come back on here, PM me, and say nothing negative and that it is what they say it is.....I have to accept it, even without empircal evidence and at least say: "you have my attention".

So, at this point, for me, I am now in "recieve" mode as it seems pointless to debate and argue further without my own set of experiences to understand it.
Hi Kevin, thanks. Well, this marks you as sensible, as opposed to some others that I don't want to keep picking on. This is the attitude I had when confronted with the idea that there are skills I had no clue about no matter how many years I had in different arts. I think it's the only logical way to approach it - just mark it down as interesting, and go check it out when you can. Typically the less ego you have, the more people are willing to show you things and the more you can learn. Some people are frightened by the idea that they can do something for years, and then meet someone that totally erases their prior perspective. A lot of people reacted that way to BJJ at first, for example. On the other hand you have the people who relish that opportunity because they know that's pure gold. How lucky was I to have Rickson personally kick my ass over and over again? That regular access will likely never come again. Those are the encounters and the things that allow you to increase the depth and breadth of your knowledge. Some people aren't interested in depth, they may only want to have a belt and students, or whatever, and will resist any change to the death. Ultimately it comes down to personality, interests, maturity, and other personal facets. Trust me, when you check it out you will like it. And it will also be immediately obvious what each side means in all the discussions where people are talking past each other, and you will have no more success in explaining things in writing to those who haven't felt it than anybody else does. And that's OK.
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Old 03-03-2007, 12:12 PM   #816
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
IMM, if it was that important, we'd see 70 year olds trashing these young MMA guys every now and then, and we don't.
Would we? Let us put a young MMA guy up against a 70 year old catch wrestler/judo player. I think it's generally agreeable that the 70 year old is going to get thrashed in short order, possibly seriously hurt. But what if the 70 year old fellow had internal skills? Has anyone seriously suggested he would then thrash young guys? Again, I think it's generally agreeable that he'd get thrashed, but perhaps not in short order. Maybe he puts on a good show, and makes the young guy sweat a little, instead of the massacre our first hypothetical fight is. It's a wide spectrum. We don't have to adopt hard A = B or A \= B stances.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 03-03-2007, 04:04 PM   #817
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

No, the only reason I even bring this up is to address the realitive value of these skills as compared to other skills. I don't doubt that they may be helpful.

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Old 03-03-2007, 06:51 PM   #818
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm assuming Jun will move "The Ricky Wood Thread" somewhere suitable.
Or not.
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:45 PM   #819
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
And what you are doing, and fooling no one in the process, is attempting to equate your skill and knowledge with theirs. ... ...you're all about trying to display superior knowledge of physics, it looks like a little kid going "me too me too!" and fooling no one. Apparently people are supposed to be impressed, instead of noticing you're three feet tall with peanut butter all over your face.
'There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself, "Do trousers matter?"'
‘The mood will pass, sir.'

P.G. Wodehouse.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:48 PM   #820
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Red face Re: Baseline skillset

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Old 03-03-2007, 10:49 PM   #821
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Red face Re: Baseline skillset

Hey Pete!!!!

There ya go
MMA....as grad school...........at 43.
And no career injuries!

What do we say about sooooo many 30 and 40 somethings in Aikido with so many injuries? Aikido is more harmful to your body!
I wonder why?
We need Ukemi... why again?
Seems baseline skills should include...actually...fighting back.
Now there's a thought.
Who was the guy who advocated full-resistence as a different and far safer body dynamic in ukemi?

A whimpy 51 yr old
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-03-2007 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 01:20 AM   #822
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Re: Baseline skillset

I am feeling better than I ever had a 41. I thought BJJ/MMA would be harder on my body than aikido. It is the exact opposite!

I have a bad back from jumping out of airplanes. I cannot run the long distances that I used to do, I have to take care of myself. I have arthritis in my major joints. (all the good stuff a 41 year old infantryman typically has!)

I can roll and do BJJ and MMA all day long...minus the breakfalls and "high techniques".

Aikido is a killer in this department! I am concerned when I get back to training in it full time this summer. I will definitely be taking it much easier than I used to when it comes to falls and rolls!

I will typically "ride" nage to the ground easing the fall. I think you can practice things very gently without resulting to huge leaps and rolls. Once contact is made, given correct balance, posture, and alignment....and giving nage the little bit that he needs to actually eploit the advantage slightly, I think you can still do the techniques without all the hype.

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Old 03-04-2007, 07:01 AM   #823
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

I should have stated I was responding to Petes comment about Randy. More specifically about the heavywheight match of Randy "the natural" Couture who won hos 5 th championship against a 6' 8" 285lb very tough fighter.
he was 30, Randy..... 43.

What I also addresssing was that MMA skills-grappling specifically-while much more able and violent, is far safer on your body. These skills combined with internal skills (the base line skills of all aiki arts) are safer still in that most men, anywhere, will simply not able to handle you. And mores the point- you will be able to defend yourself without needing to cause harm. Thus actuating Ueshiba's vision.
Needing to do do ukemi the way you do (which breaks down the body) isn't necessary, nether is the antics of a few famous Aikido teachers who just simply abuse their students all in trying to "appear" more martial.
The skills you should be pursuing-the internal aspects that allow aiki to really happen-are powerful for Aikido on two fronts.
To allow you to actually BE more martially effective.
And to stop, stymie and frustrate the attacks of others without harming them.
Starting with the "techniques" of your own art and then going up to more intense techniques of others from there. These basline skills will exponentially increase your power and abilities, and you donlt have to get hurt learning them

In retrospect I've still not seen any mention of a "basic skills" that are in "Aikido" that are their equal.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-04-2007 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:22 AM   #824
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I will typically "ride" nage to the ground easing the fall. I think you can practice things very gently without resulting to huge leaps and rolls. Once contact is made, given correct balance, posture, and alignment....and giving nage the little bit that he needs to actually eploit the advantage slightly, I think you can still do the techniques without all the hype.
This sounds like really good *aikido* ukemi to me. I wouldn't be concerned at all and you wouldn't be the only one doing that.

Mark
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:43 AM   #825
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mark Chiappetta wrote: View Post
This sounds like really good *aikido* ukemi to me. I wouldn't be concerned at all and you wouldn't be the only one doing that.

Mark
This is interesting.
Where and by who would it be excepted as "good" Aikido?
For that matter considering how many decry their Aikido is different from this or that Aikido-just how much deviation is tolerated before it is no longer recognized as Aikido? And By whom?
In light of the aikikai's loose position that they are the true Aikido of Ueshiba (which if they really wanted to be traditional is actually Ueshiba-ha Daito ryu) who can accept or deny "standards?"
Are there any?
Is Ueshiba's admonission that "Everyone must pursue their own Aikido."
Anything more than just words? Did he in fact know what he was talking about and his words or vision have been proscripted by his heirs?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-04-2007 at 07:49 AM.
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