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Old 02-22-2007, 12:04 PM   #26
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

James, I'm with you... I'm mostly Irish with a substantial mix of Cherokee (a full headright) and Blackfoot Indian. Haven't lost much hair yet but I match the rest of your discription. I was born in America but am a citizen of the Universe and am still excited to see what comes next...

Chuck Clark
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Old 02-22-2007, 01:10 PM   #27
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

i am Lebanese.
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Old 02-22-2007, 01:18 PM   #28
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

1/4 Venezuelan, 1/8 Hungarian, 1/8 Austrian, 1/16 Cherokee and the rest is a healthy mix of German, Scottish, Irish and French.

Basically, I fit the short, stocky white guy bit as well . . .

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Old 02-22-2007, 02:12 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Nah, you ain't so white...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-22-2007, 02:51 PM   #30
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Nah, you ain't so white...
Hi Ron,

That's what a bunch of folks I ran around with when I lived in Paris in the late 60's. The American Center for Students and Artists on Blvd. Raspail was a great meeting place and was started by E. Hemingway. I taught yoga and self-defense there and made friends with an African Drum and Dance group. They said anybody that danced to the drums like I did couldn't be white. It's still hard for me to "not move" when I hear the rythmn.

Chuck Clark
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Old 02-22-2007, 09:54 PM   #31
xuzen
 
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Han Chinese. So was my Father, Mother, Grandmother, Grandfather so on and so forth...

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 02-23-2007, 06:29 AM   #32
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

This is a funny thread.

to be honest, I know where some of my ancestors come from, mostly Central Europe from Southern Denmark to Poland down to Hungary, Austria and Slovenia.

About ethnicity, I do not know. There was a time when all parts claimed to be German ("Volksdeutsche"). But there were so many mixtures in the last centuries, that I do notr even know, how much of my blood is European, African, Asian, American or Australian.

And my passport just tells about my citizenship.

And heritage? Sorry, but my father did not leave very much, when he died.

Gruß

Dirk
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:27 AM   #33
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Canadian

Being made of up

German/Austrian
Native american (iriquois)
French canadian
scottish

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 02-23-2007, 10:46 AM   #34
Neil Mick
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
well, technically, there is only ONE race...

B,
R
I'm with Ron: I'm the same race, as the rest of you.

But, I DO know my family genealogical history, quite well. A great-uncle researched his wife's genealogy and published it, back in the 1920's. We have a family grave in VA that goes back to the 17th C.
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:22 AM   #35
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Race = Species
There is only one species in our genus, and we're it. Homo sapiens sapiens. We're a subspecies of a genus and species that used to have several subspecies, including Homo sapiens neandertalis, but they're extinct.

There Can Be Only One.

What people mistake for "race" differences are the concentrations or absences of a fairly small number of genes that affect phenotype (expressions of genes that you can readily see or note, such as hair texture, melanin cell density of the skin/hair/eyes, epicanthic folds, blood type, body fat distribution, fingerprint pattern). These occur when populations are isolated so that they reproduce only among themselves for as little as a few hundred years or as many as 100,000 years.

The basic components of being human don't change, but you can get dominance of certain superficial gene frequencies. Unlike bacteria, which have generational turnover in a matter of seconds, it takes a lot more, much more time, to create a new subspecies or species among a more slowly mutating, complex organism such as a human. We haven't gotten there yet, and given the mobility and globalism of humans, it's not likely. Even the most isolated human tribes have been turned up in Southeast Asia, out of contact for the rest of humanity for maybe 10s of thousands of years, and I'm 99.999% sure that if given DNA tests, they will prove to be 100% Homo sapiens sapiens.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-23-2007 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:42 AM   #36
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Crap. Editing time ran out. Please ignore previous post.
---------------------------

Race = Species
There is only one species in our genus, and we're it. Homo sapiens sapiens. We're a subspecies of a genus and species that used to have several subspecies, including Homo sapiens neandertalis, but they're extinct.

There Can Be Only One.

What people mistake for "race" differences are the concentrations or absences of a fairly small number of genes that affect phenotype (expressions of genes that you can readily see or note, such as hair texture, melanin cell density of the skin/hair/eyes, epicanthic folds, blood type, blood cell shape, body fat distribution, fingerprint pattern). When populations are isolated so that they reproduce only among themselves, some such genes (including those with mutations, such as the one that causes breast cancer in populations of Ashkenazic Jews) and genetic combinations will become dominant while others will be suppressed or "bred out," but without changing the more complex underlying genetic makeup of the species. Phenotypic changes can occur wholesale within a population in as little as a few hundred years or as many as 100,000 years. Their speed of change is also shaped by environmental pressures (for instance, sickle cell shape in African and Mediterranean populations, an evolutionary trait that was a response to the malaria carrying parasite).

The basic components of being human don't change, but you can get dominance of certain superficial gene frequencies. Unlike bacteria, which have generational turnover in a matter of seconds, it takes a lot more, much more time, to create a new subspecies or species among a more slowly mutating, complex organism such as a human. We haven't gotten there yet, and given the mobility and globalism of humans, it's not likely. Even the most isolated human tribes have been turned up in Southeast Asia, out of contact for the rest of humanity for maybe 10s of thousands of years, and I'm 99.999% sure that if given DNA tests, they will prove to be 100% Homo sapiens sapiens.
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:53 AM   #37
Mashu
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

What about the Chupacabra?

Is it one of us?
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:57 AM   #38
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Didn't you watch that X-Files episode? If you had, you'd know!
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:00 PM   #39
Mashu
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

I guess I picked the wrong decade to stop watching TV.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:07 PM   #40
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

It's the episode El Mundo Gira.
Enjoy.

http://www.tv.com/the-x-files/el-mun...4/summary.html

http://redwolf.com.au/xfiles/season04/4x11.html

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-23-2007 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:56 PM   #41
PhilMyKi
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

My mother is English born with German, Irish, Spanish and Scotish blood. My natural father is Italian (from the south). My step-father is 100% paddy. As for over one thousand years all these counrties have fighting and invading each other, I call myself EUROPEAN (it really upsets people who collate application forms when I tick the 'other' box when describing myself!)

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Old 02-23-2007, 06:47 PM   #42
Hanna B
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Race = Species
Not in my dictionary. It says "subgroup within a species, that has visual or physiological caracteristics which distinguishes it from other subgroups within the species". (My translation, all mistakes are probably mine.) See also the English Wikipedia entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28biology%29

Note that there is also an article about "human races"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race
which is probably not a biological concept.
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Old 02-23-2007, 06:54 PM   #43
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

No, Hanna, you're right. I should have stated Race = Subspecies, which is what I meant, and that we humans are both the sole species -and- subspecies in the genus Homo. I was so busy editing the rest of my post that I forgot to fix that glitch!

As far as we know, what varies among different human populations are the -frequencies- of genes and their expressions.

The Wikipedia entry is in no way accurately reflective of biological definition of "race." As soon as we start dealing with human populations subjectively that way, instead of objectively as we would species of plants or non-human primates, we run into that messy, ugly area of cultural comparison and the "merits" of having one set of physical features over another. Science is a better way to go, IMO.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-23-2007 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 02-24-2007, 04:19 AM   #44
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
We're a subspecies of a genus and species that used to have several subspecies, including Homo sapiens neandertalis, but they're extinct.
Are you sure? Sometimes I see people that look as if they show up homo neandertaliensis genes. So I guess, if there was a chance to biologically mix with the homo europeensis, they did. And then there is something left. Maybe not often visible, but sometimes it gets obvious again.

Best Regards

Dirk
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:09 AM   #45
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

There have been notes over the years of people who resembled H. sapiens neandertalis, and a strong possibility that Neanderthals interbred with our subspecies, but no data or proof that any humans today they possess DNA that is from that Neanderthal subspecies. I remember having discussions in one of my grad school paleoanthropology courses about this. (The professor I had for that course, Erik Trinkaus, works mostly with Neanderthal research. Google him for interesting stuff!)

Within our own genepool there is a lot of variation, which is why humans can come in so many shapes, sizes and colors. Frequencies of genes in given populations do not make for different subspecies (races), only for variations on the same subspecies theme.

Think of all of the domestic breeds of chickens there are.
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/B....html#Chickens (scroll down to table of contents and click on chickens)

Every one of them is the same species and subspecies: Gallus gallus domesticus. They are all directly descended from the red Jungle fowl, Gallus gallus gallus http://www.geocities.com/hs_wong33/RedJungleFowl.html , and http://www.geocities.com/hs_wong33/PROTOCHICKEN.htm , but look at all the variations in body size and shape, color, feather pattern, eye color, comb shape, egg shell color, even number of toes (the Dorking, an ancient breed from Rome, has five, while most other breeds have four). But domestic chickens are all the same -race- (subspecies).

The development by humans of special breeds of animal is from selective breeding that picks and chooses genes that might normally have gotten hidden and suppressed. In nature, breeding is more random. If you were to put all of the breeds of chicken into a big pen and let them interbreed for some generations, the offspring would eventually resemble the ancestral red jungle fowl as those genes gradually came back to dominance. (I don't know whether they would be re-classified as Gallus gallus gallus, but they could become genetically so close to the original subspecies that distinctions might be impossible to make). I keep poultry and have seen this resemblance happen in as short a time as four generations. Chickens can breed at 12 weeks old, so generations come quickly and are easy to follow and observe.

Human generations are a little longer, but I would venture that if we were to take a big bunch of people from every culture and region and let them do what chickens do, we'd be seeing, over time, what our ancestral "Eve" human looked like when she came out of Africa and started the long journey to being fruitful, multiplying and filling the Earth with the rich variety of human genetic expression we have now.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-24-2007 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 02-28-2007, 03:29 PM   #46
Lan Powers
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

<There is only one species in our genus, and we're it. Homo sapiens sapiens. We're a subspecies of a genus and species that used to have several subspecies, including Homo sapiens neandertalis, but they're extinct>

I am not so sure....my wife's ex-husband had all the classic physical indicators....... hmmmm.

I, myself, am Texas-born and comprised of mostly Scottish (McGregor as well, Keven) as well as a healthy dose of Welsh, English, and a larger than is evident scoop of American Indian(Cherokee, Choctaw)
With just a hint of Black Dutch (whatever that actually is) for flavor.
Butchers blend, so to speak.
Lan

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Old 02-28-2007, 04:15 PM   #47
Mike Sigman
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
There have been notes over the years of people who resembled H. sapiens neandertalis, and a strong possibility that Neanderthals interbred with our subspecies, but no data or proof that any humans today they possess DNA that is from that Neanderthal subspecies.
Good one, Cady. However, it has to be remembered that chimpanzee's have about 98% overlapping genetic material with humans, so Neanderthalers' genes from those who interbred in the genetic pool may be only barely distinguishable from the population's genetic norm. Think of Down's Syndrome as an example..... even though someone with Down's Syndrome is unable to sustain its own life and thus become a bona fide survivability trait, the gene commonality is such that genetic testing for "differences" can be difficult to do (until recently). It's a tricky subject.
Quote:
I remember having discussions in one of my grad school paleoanthropology courses about this. (The professor I had for that course, Erik Trinkaus, works mostly with Neanderthal research. Google him for interesting stuff!)
"Thal" means "valley". The remains of the early hominids under discussion were found in the Neander Valley in Germany. The money in various "valleys" of Germany was in "Thalers", which (the T, Th, sound became a "D") became the precursor to "Thalers" or the American "Dollars". I always wonder if anyone from the Neander Valley gets upset if we call him a "Neanderthaler".
Quote:
Within our own genepool there is a lot of variation, which is why humans can come in so many shapes, sizes and colors.
Survivability of a species requires that a lot of alternatives remain at the ready. A species that becomes too specialized can doom itself.
Quote:
Human generations are a little longer, but I would venture that if we were to take a big bunch of people from every culture and region and let them do what chickens do, we'd be seeing, over time, what our ancestral "Eve" human looked like when she came out of Africa and started the long journey to being fruitful, multiplying and filling the Earth with the rich variety of human genetic expression we have now.
I think that's true. The curved-tail "Dingo" is a good example of the mongrel that reverts to type.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 02-28-2007, 05:32 PM   #48
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Hi Mike,
If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I noted that the characteristics people mistake for "racial" differences are due to a relatively small number of genes and gene combinations that contribute to phenotypes (that get categorized as "racial" features) -- such as blood type and fingerprint pattern, skin color, hair texture, etc. I mentioned that the -underlying- complex system of numerous genes that defines us as human does -not- vary from human to human, only the ones in our goody grab-bag additional genes.

By the same idea, that aforementioned underlying complex genetic infrastructure varies, as you noted, only 2% from that of bonobo chimpanzees. What makes us humans human is a thin margin of genetic diverging from our primate relatives. A bit close for comfort, for some folks.

You are absolutely correct that the number and variety of genes we possess in our goody grab-bag are our (and other living things') tool kit to adaptibility and survival. While humans are more passive in their self-selection of genetic traits, we have selectively bred other animals and plants from their wild types to bring out such traits as higher and more frequent egg or milk production, wool density and texture, cold hardiness, muscular strength, and much more. We would not have been able to make these manipulations of animals if those individual species did not already possess a large and varied gene pool from which to pick and choose such traits. You can't make something from nothing, but can only work with the available material. Well, until Monsanto came along, at least.

Note that animals with very little genetic variation are seldom domesticated. Those that could not be selectively bred to adapt to certain conditions, as mobile humans moved around to different climates, food sources and terrains, would not be of use to us.

Having too little genetic variation also is the ticket to extinction.
For example, zoologists discovered, a few decades ago that all existing cheetahs today are genetically identical, like twins, or nearly so. The theory is that a catastrophic disease or other factor wiped out nearly all cheetahs at some point (we don't know when), and so the entire population today is descended from a very small number maybe fewer than 100 individuals. The variability of their gene pool is severely reduced, and they live on the brink of extinction, because they lack that genetic-variability toolkit of gene combos that could allow for adaptability should there be changes in climate, or should a new plague come along.

One of the greatest dangers today is monoculture (reduction of all domestic plants/animals to just one breed) because if all animals in a flock are genetically near-identical, a single disease will wipe them all out; no individual will possess different genes that could allow it to survive and reproduce. We are doing this with domestic livestock, as gigantic corporate farms raise only one genetically identical strain of poultry for the egg industry, or swine and beef cattle for meat. Cheetahs came about their monoculture "naturally," but I fear the consequences of not maintaing a very diverse gene pool for our agricultural animals and plants. That's one of the reasons why I raise heritage (ancestral) poultry breeds. You never know.

Survival, via genetic variety, is dependent on genetic mutation that constantly throws either beneficial or detrimental traits to a species. If a genetic trait arises that allows a species to have an edge under certain existing environmental conditions, then it is beneficial -- it allows the species to survive and reproduce more, and better as long as those environmental conditions persist. If the trait confers a disadvantage, it reduces the possessor's chances of survival and thus may reduce its number or contribute to its being wiped it out altogether under certain environmental conditions. It is a passive and continuous process. Evolution is Tao.

By the way, Down's Syndrome is a chromosomal mutation that renders the individual incapable of reproducing; thus, it's not the type of mutation that will reproduce itself and create a different line or subspecies. Many of the genetic mutations individual humans inherit are dead ends because they either render the possessor sterile or they cause mortality before the invididual is old enough to reproduce and pass the gene on. Others, such as propensity toward diseases that occur -after- the age of reproduction (such as Huntington's Disease), are neither positive nor negative from the perspective of Nature, because the individual is able to reproduce and pass his or her genes on before being affected by the genetic disease. Unfortunately, that's why such genetic diseases persist.

And, thanks for the background on the dollar's name origin. I knew the origins of the Neanderthal subspecies' monicker, but not that our almight buck descended from that valley.

Cady
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:35 PM   #49
Mike Sigman
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Hi Mike,
If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I noted that the characteristics people mistake for "racial" differences are due to a relatively small number of genes and gene combinations that contribute to phenotypes (that get categorized as "racial" features) -- such as blood type and fingerprint pattern, skin color, hair texture, etc. I mentioned that the -underlying- complex system of numerous genes that defines us as human does -not- vary from human to human, only the ones in our goody grab-bag additional genes.
Hi Cady:

I'm ambivalent. My perception stems from the idea that people are simply animals that conform to all basic guidelines of animal behavior. Other than that singular view, I look at the arguments about "race" and "equality", etc., as being closely akin to the arguments of old about whether you were a "god-fearin' True Believer" or not. I.e., a lot of these discussions appear to be about everyone trying to impose their religions on everyone else who may be a heretic if they don't conform.
Quote:
By the same idea, that aforementioned underlying complex genetic infrastructure varies, as you noted, only 2% from that of bonobo chimpanzees. What makes us humans human is a thin margin of genetic diverging from our primate relatives. A bit close for comfort, for some folks.
Well, those statistics get mis-parlayed a lot in order to make obscure points. We have many genetic components that are shared across the entire animal kingdom, so the statistics you're quoting mean little unless you do a more complete breakdown.
Quote:
By the way, Down's Syndrome is a chromosomal mutation that renders the individual incapable of reproducing;
Nature does that with a number of chromosomal aberrations, Cady. It protects the species. My point is a little more ambiguous than all of this. I recognize "race", as does medical science, because it's a reality in many cases; to not recognize it is to not be able to deal with many issues, particularly medical ones. To pretend we can't spot the Chinaman in the Polka Band is an absurdity of trendy Political Correctness. OTOH, I have no use for anyone who deliberately prejudges based on nothing but race. But there is no easy answer except for everyone to do the best they can in the Now and forget about the Past and the Future, IMO.
Quote:
And, thanks for the background on the dollar's name origin. I knew the origins of the Neanderthal subspecies' monicker, but not that our almight buck descended from that valley.
"Dollar" derives from "Thaler", but not necessarily the Neaderthal... I didn't mean that one specifically.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-28-2007, 08:11 PM   #50
Cady Goldfield
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Re: What's Your Ethnicity?

My point was, really, that the subjective viewing of visible genetic traits (phenotype) as "race" differences is a messy, ugly way to define the variety of humankind. That, because it provides rationale for exclusion, persecution, and the usurping and exploitation of other peoples' resources in the name of "we're superior, so we deserve them."

I agree that organized religions frequently provide the platform from which to launch this approach. Memes mirror genes in their purpose -- to promote ourselves into a position of dominance over others' genes and cultures/ideas. To my chagrin, knowing the objective-scientific reason why we do this doesn't stop it from happening.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Dollar" derives from "Thaler", but not necessarily the Neaderthal... I didn't mean that one specifically.

Best.

Mike
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