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Old 02-26-2007, 01:51 PM   #726
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Thanks for the reply Dennis.

I actually think this is key to the conversation.

I train this way and frankly I think it has drastically improved my understanding of aikido. Although I will let Jimmy Sorrentino and the rest of our dojo be the judge of that when I return home after 4 years this summer.

Anyway, I am told that I don't understand what these guys are talking about because I do not use the same verbage. I tend to think that I understand, can do some of these things in practical application, that there are quite a few out there who can and do...they simply do not use the verbage and demonstrate it in the same fashion.

I think that from the discussion from you, George, Jimmy, and many others AND my personal experiences that what I hear and have experienced is that there is much, much more to all this than the ability to isolate out this stuff. That much more is needed in development of a person from a budo stand point than this.

To me it is sort of like a kid that learns how to isolate a particular genome in his bedroom lab. he says "hey guys, come here...look what I can do!" Scientist keep these secrets, say it takes years of study, and is too complicated for anyone except a high level PhD to do this....and I...the 15 year old figured this out on my own...and I am willing to share my secret.

My point is this....

so I am fascinated that you can do this, it is intriguing and yes it might be beneficial in someway.

NOW show me how you can put that very specialized skill to use in a way that benefits the totality of something that I can use in my daily life.

I have no way of knowing if aikido is getting soft or not.

I can tell you I personally have struggled understanding it and it was not until I found BJJ that I really began to understand what my aikido instructors have been trying to teach me.

I can tell you that I have seen many yudansha within our own ASU organization that have only done aikido, are comfortable staying within the confines of what they have learned, go through the motions quite well, are very "good in show" when taking ukemi for our senior instructors, are knowledgeable about technical things about aikido. AND they do not know the first thing about Budo or could actually demonstrate ANY thing I consider to be base skills or what these guys label as internal.

I'd put these guys in the DO only category for sure.

I do learn from them.

However, there are others in the same organization that really, really get it or get it, and are on what I consider to be a decent path.

Guys that will respond appropriately when I challenge them as uke. Guys that are willing to clash and have their skills pushed. Guys that are mentally tough and are okay with being challenged and questioned.

All in the same dojo.

Okay, now we are on a different topic though...and that is one of the fact that I think that aikido allows for a certain level of mediocrity to exist.

I have always taken that as okay though, as by the nature of the spirit in an aikido dojo that we must allow people develop in their own way on their own timeline.

I have seen Saotome Sensei actually fail people, as I am sure you have too on shodan test. I have seen him frustrated because he saw his students not get it as well. So I think he has a limit from my experiences to what he feels is okay and not okay.

Anyway...I am rambling now.

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Old 02-26-2007, 02:03 PM   #727
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Also I believe you will develop this skill if you just keep training. Or go to Dan and take him at his word. Good luck and I hope you find it and he can lead you to it if you must have it quickly. I will admit I can't give it to you in a matter of hours or even days. I can show you but you got to work on it a lot.
Hi Dennis,
It isn't so much what someone can show me...it's more about how to find it in myself. I know others who train under the same teacher, and I can definately say they are further along in the development of a stable axis line than I am. The work is hard, it's frustrating, sometimes painful, and sometimes (even with guidance) like stumbling around in the dark...but that's ok, I am here for the long haul, so I'll keep working at it. But if I find supplimental work I can do outside of what I already have...I'll do that too, to the best of my ability.

My statement was not meant to shortchange my teachers...but rather, my own understanding in my body.

Quote:
How are we to measure "baseline skill sets" and what is/is not working within the training methodology of Aikido?
Find others in your dojo(s) with similar interests. Work after class, before class, outside of class. Apply what you discover in class...and measure it with the senior students and your instructor. If they think your aikido is improving, and you also see results in your non-cooperative venues, then I think you are well on your way. That's what I try to do, anyway...

If it works in both cooperative and non-cooperative venues, then what more could anyone ask?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 02-26-2007, 02:08 PM   #728
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

[quote=Dennis Hooker;169865]
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

Dan, Your exasperating, frustrating, irritating and stimulating
Have you been talking to my wife??
You know the next step after that is to fall in love with me
runnin and duckin....

[quote=Dennis Hooker;169865]
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
and I been trying to draw you out of that northern groundhog hole you call home from years into the real world but you come out see your shadow and go back in. One of these days you'll make a mistake summer will be here and you will actually end up teaching a seminar somewhere.
Ok seriously, I don't do seminars. But there are about a dozen guys from here who will tell you I don't turn most people away. I just did a one day gig with about 5 Aikido folks. I'm certainly not hiding Bud.
Real world? I am in the real world. I just tailor things to suit me and my family and give as best I can. Small groups come to visit, we laugh allot,-I just have to have fun while doing this stuff- and we train hard. Everyone is doing sincere training and they have a better chance to feel one on one. If I don't feel I can really contribute to them getting better, than I get embarrased at wasting their time.
Long tern repitition, and solo work is the goal.
Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
Kevin You missed nothing. You got it! Harder work more study is what many of us need. As I travel around I see so much weak Aikido and people without strong foundations trying to be philosopher warriors when they are nether.
Well that's certainly derogatory Dennis Where have I heard others say the same things........and get chastised for it. Is truth, conditional?

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-26-2007 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 02-26-2007, 02:11 PM   #729
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

I also have to say that I don't think large seminars lend themselves to the hands on work from the specialist that my own experience tells me is needed in this.

The mass marketing of aikido has to take some of the rap for any decline in skill level, in my opinion.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:04 PM   #730
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
... have you considered that this garden path that you are essentially exhorting some ignorant neophytes to follow may not in fact be the right one?
You make it sound like we do aikido with blackboards on the dojo walls. Hardly. I have stood up here to defend training according to the transmitted kihon waza and kokyu undo as I was taught. The same strawman keeps being tossed in the ring repeatedly.

I like to be able to think carefully about movments in physical terms -- to critique myself and to catch incorrect movements by students in the kihon that I might not otherwise see as precisely or be able to describe as well. I am better able to understand what the waza or kokyu movement is actually doing, physically. I find the language of 17th century mechanics is fairly well-suited to that line of thought.

I find it remarkable that looking intensively at the mechanics of it all is considered such an outer-limits approach by anyone. Japan's Navy, about thirty years out of the box, decimated Russia's 200 year-old Baltic Fleet with all the up to date Western systems of mechanics on board back in 1905. It is now 2007. We can manage this stuff with computers and other nifty gadgets if we really want to. I'm just working through the concepts in the traditional narrative form of problem analysis that has worked since at least Galileo and Kepler.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
What long list of questions?
That would be here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=602

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:15 PM   #731
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
We can manage this stuff with computers and other nifty gadgets if we really want to. I'm just working through the concepts in the traditional narrative form of problem analysis that has worked since at least Galileo and Kepler.
That would probably all be fine if we could accept that you were discussing the same subject. Unfortunately...

Best,
Ron

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Old 02-26-2007, 03:19 PM   #732
Keith R Lee
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Re: Baseline skillset

I have to say that I find all of this interesting as well. However, it seems so all over the place, differing opinions, conflicts in language...that I usually just stay out of it. The thing is, I'm very intrigued by the type of training that is being discussed. However, two things:

1) In my experience (online and off) no one has been able to demonstrate these skills to me in an "alive" training environment. - Caveat: I live in AL, not really a hotbed of MAs, though I have lived and traveled around the country, been to many dojos, seminars, etc. Also, I haven't been going out of my way to look for it, I have enough on my plate now as it is.

2) I think that there is probably a .000001% chance of this stuff being successfully transmitted in some fashion via text.

Therefore, I'm not going to be able to get it and instead just get frustrated trying to read/interact in these conversations. At some point people are just talking for the sake of talking, there's really no chance that anything is going to be learned or transmitted. (Of course, you could say that about a lot of the conversations on here, my own included )

I really hope to be able to train with most of you guys some day though. (Plus beers and conversation afterwards!)

Keith Lee
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:23 PM   #733
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

I am with ya on that Keith. Open minded, but with ya.

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Old 02-26-2007, 03:24 PM   #734
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Re: Baseline skillset

That said Keith, I think it CAN and IS demonstrated by effective MMA guys in an aliveness environment. Top BJJ guys do it everyday. This is were I differ with these guys as this being special.

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Old 02-26-2007, 03:25 PM   #735
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yea Dan, maybe, one day...I will finally get to one on one with the likes of you too!
Your taking the heat pretty good!
I'd like to clarify that again, I have no issue with what you are training even though it sometimes sounds like it.

Just a few things on perspective and realitive weight of it. Which I consider to be very important.
I almost never get mad, Kevin. Those who don't know this stuff get frustrated and for good reason. Those who do- simply understand.

On a pure fighting level you and I both know that banging and rolling is its own reward. Why I say I argue on two fronts. But you need to separate the two to train it, then join them together. It's what I said to Rob. "Without fighting experience- its tough to convince someone like me of the value." Its why I show it to fighters as a separate skill set. I tell them "You lift, you run, right? All in order to build your body. This will build-YOUR- body in a different way that you can use to enhance YOUR skill set." Otherwise, if they're like I was- they won't listen. They will judge all you know, by your ability to defeat them. Its kind of nonsensical of course. Its like looking at a BJJ or Judo guy whom you can defeat then discounitng BJJ or Judo. On the other hand when I handle them they think its all skill. So its a bit of a chess discussion. Its a very powerful skill set, but as we know MMA is a both great teacher and a great equalizer.
Thanks for the taking "the heat well" comment. Many here have at least acknowledged that. I take the heat well for some very simple reasons.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-26-2007 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:35 PM   #736
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

I am tracking Dan. I just don't think we will agree without working together so we can understand each other..that is all.

What I do is read between the lines to say I think we are on common ground. Like this. I put very little value in weight lifing or strength in my martial training. I don't need it as much as I need other things such as an understanding of the correct use of my body.

I strength train to maintain my overall fitness and muscle mass as I grow older. I have some very strong, young guys, that I train with from time to time. In fact I have a Hung Gar guy right now that does not really understand the so-called internal thing very well. He is very, very strong, yet it does no good at all against me.

The guys that roll with me will tell you that when I am in the zone, that they are amazed that they cannot read me as I am simply not there or there is nothing to push on. Of course, we are talking about beginners, as I do not have enough skill to do this with very accomplished BJJ guys as they are better at it than I am.

Is this the same concept you are talking about? I don't know...I suspect you'll say no.

Again, we'd have to work together to figure out if that is the case.

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Old 02-26-2007, 03:37 PM   #737
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
That said Keith, I think it CAN and IS demonstrated by effective MMA guys in an aliveness environment. Top BJJ guys do it everyday. This is were I differ with these guys as this being special.
Really. And how is that Kevin? They are great tactitions and postional opportunists to an excellent degree. Also good at relaxed noncommitted flow-fighting. That is the same as "those guys"....just how?
Lets save that till we meet and stay cordial. As I said least year "I like your curiosity bent on practical research-and- your stubborness." You remind me of me.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-26-2007 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:44 PM   #738
Brion Toss
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hello Brion,
I disagree. I think you're way off and completely wrong. Well, unless you are a MA genius and can see what's hidden in plain sight. These baseline skills are not in the waza. Eric doesn't get it and any attempts at using simple physics or mechanics to try to explain what is happening is useless and wasting energy. But, if you don't think any of that truly matters ... why post? Obviously, you thought it did. To me, these do matter.

Mark
Mark,
You misread me. When I asked, "But does any of that truly matter?", it was in reference to my opinion, in the immediately preceding lines, regarding the respective engineering concepts of Messrs. Harden, Sigman, and Mead. I wrote that opinion in order to draw a contrast with the theme of the letter: an open heart as a basic Aikido skill. I certainly think that "internal power" does matter, a great deal, and I am sorry if that was not clear from my post.
As for whether or not such power can be derived from the waza, it would appear that we disagree. There are, of course, no guarantees that a student will be able to derive them, or that a teacher will be able to teach them, any more than there are guarantees in any other training model. But empty practice is hardly a phenomenom unique to Aikido. To take an example from something I do know something about -- sailboat rigging -- many contemporary sailors are opting nowadays for electric-powered winches, and sails that wind up inside the mast. Some of this preference is based on boat size and/or the ages of the sailors. But far too often the sailors are abandoning a simpler, cheaper, more durable and efficient manual configuration because the manual components are poorly specified, poorly installed, or poorly understood. Nothing the matter, intrinsically, with the manual option, but if the sailor doesn't understand that, then the first person who comes along with a gizmo that is guaranteed to make their life easy will get their attention. That's fine with me, because I make a lot more money installing gizmo's, but the two approaches were not actually judged on their merits.
You believe that it takes a martial arts genius to find internal energy in Aiki waza; I believe otherwise, perhaps because it has been explained to me better, as a system.
It also seems clear that you see any attempt at a mechanical analysis of the nature of internal power to be "useless," and this I just do not understand. If we can't even approach creating a rational model for what is happening, then we are stuck with the kind of direct transmission that tends to ossify into cult belief. Information that cannot be analysed cannot be related to other phenomena, or improved on in a meaningful, systematic manner.

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:53 PM   #739
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
These baseline skills are not in the waza. ... any attempts at using simple physics or mechanics to try to explain what is happening is useless and wasting energy.
"Useless?" "Wasting energy?" That is curious. The sytemic application of mechanical concepts nearly wiped out the practical utility of these "quaint" empty handed arts and classical arms as serious options in combat. It very nearly destroyed the last remnants of the warrior ethos in favor of the stamped-out soldiery of mass-production. It came far closer to doing that in our own culture than it did in Japan. I've fought using what that allows, and it is a very powerful bujutsu, indeed.

Having said that, we cannot run away from the ideas that are the basis of that technological bujutsu either. We have to engage it and infuse it with the same spirit O Sensei demonstrated. Technological and methodological innovations did not completely destroy the fundamental spirit or principles lying behind classical warfare. But, really -- "useless?" Damned dangerous, I would say.

O Sensei proposed as early as 1933, in Budo Renshu, to follow the road of scientific inquiry, precisely to harmonize its immense destructive potential with the embodied wisdom and spirit of its proper use in his vision of "true budo." He was not at all afraid for his art to explore this road, even if he did not do it himself. His vision was immensely greater than the personal horizon of his life, which is part of what inspires those who have followed him in this.

I really don't have any reason to feel that I am out on the limb here -- not in my approach, anyway. Nor do I fault you for steadily chopping away at the stretch of branch that lies between us, even so. We will all learn something from it -- one way or another.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:54 PM   #740
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

I agree Dan, we'd have to get together to train to reach an understanding...it is as simple as that..yes.

I can't for the life of me see how what you call flow fighting in which you move your body in a correct and coordinated way, take and recieve energy, and return it along a correct meridan that is powerful and effective to be any different than what you describe.

Of course, no one in MMA I have seen can fight 100% with this skill, as they have to make up shortfalls with speed, strength etc....but still don't see how this is different.

I will have to get with you guys and see!

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Old 02-26-2007, 04:00 PM   #741
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Erick wrote:

Quote:
The sytemic application of mechanical concepts nearly wiped out the practical utility of these "quaint" empty handed arts and classical arms as serious options in combat. It very nearly destroyed the last remnants of the warrior ethos in favor of the stamped-out soldiery of mass-production.
I agree. The cold war army worked during the cold war. However we are finding today that we need skills that long range missles and F-16s with air superiority cannot affect.

This is why we are seeing a return to Empty Hand martial arts training in the Army and Marine Corps in the last 10 years. They are key to instilling warrior ethos. Many in the military still don't get it, but it is important..not so much for the skills you gain, but the other aspects you gain from it.

These skills are as important to establishing a base as any others. That is, the willingess to fight.

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Old 02-26-2007, 05:36 PM   #742
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Just to add a bit and say that when talking about structure, some of the assumptions are a bit flawed.

What if the fasteners for the various hinges/joints are loose?
Wouldn't that change one type of joint into another?
NOt really flawed -- incomplete, as I freely admit. This a matter of degrees of freedom, both in directional and quantitative terms. A joint can be one kind of connection in one axis and range of motion and a different type in another axis or range of motion. It is relevant in comparing, say, the typical action of the knee with that of shoulder under various loads.

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Would tightness/loosness in the joint change which type of deformation (plastic etc)occurs at varying loads? What if they are tight? What if some of them are loose and others are tight? That is to say they aren't uniform, or can selectively be chosen which are loose and which are tight?
Precisely. Which is why manipulations that change the axis of impingement are so critical and devastating. The adaptive structure may be unprepared to see a change of ninety degrees in the orientation of effective forces. If it occurs where the structure that was hinged on one axis but is pinned on another it may be unsuited to bear the existing load at all on the off-axis without reaching or exceeding the plastic limits (ouch!) almost immediately.

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Think about that for a bit and the grounding sensation that people are talking about might make a bit more sense if you want to talk about it from mechanics/statics. Its like if you played with an erector set and only tightend some of the fasteners, how would that effect how the erector set was loaded.
If I link a set of erector pieces together to mimic an arm, and hang them from an upright, I cannot push on that chain, unless it happens to obtain an funicular (hanging cable shape) for the loads in play, and becomes stiffened in that shape so as to compress (push) and not hinge. That path is supercritical for a static load, and instantaneously variable in response to a changing load.

In a loosely hanging structure, there is one and only one unique shape for every unique load condition that will allow it to bear weight without bending it (or articulating it, in the case of our erector set).

Because the joints rotate with relative freedom, they cannot be pushed, unless the critical path is found and maintained. It is supercritical like a ball balcned on top of a round hill. All paths depart from the singular stable point. The supercritical path also changes instantly as soon as anything moves. All I need to do in entering his center in the face of a push is to act where he is not "on" the shape of the curve that allows him to push with stabilkityand withou bending -- then he cannot push me without sacrificing stability or subjecting himself to bending forces.

If am on that shape for myself, then I can push him by following its continual changes (like surfing) and he is incapable of resisting -- he cannot easily find my critical path to push back at me because it is changing constantly. He may be in a hole he cannot physically get out of, in fact (like being caught just a bit too far in front of the breaking wave to catch it). He gets tumbled as a result.

If he is "on" his critical path he can push me and I can push him -- all without any bending involved. But if I apply a moment to the point of connection with a perpendicular force or tangential rotation (which is equivalent), his load status changes instantly. Bending forces develop at the joints. Once that has occurred, he is on the wrong side of the supercritical energy "hill" to "push" his chain. He is out in front of a earlier breaking wave than he had assumed. He has to scramble for position. But my energy is downhill, or at least level, while his is uphill to recover, and I will keep pushing where he isn't and he will keep scrambling to to find where I am.

If we tighten the joints we subject them to bending/buckling loads. If we resist, we respond with countering moments (rotational potentials) applied at each joint. If you looked at a limb segment in a free body diagram, it does not matter whether the left side joint rises or the right side joint drops -- the rotation (and therefore the moment) is the same in each case. But the relative motion of each joint is very different, depending.

Shifting the center of the rotational moments does not change the energy. But if that limb is countering a moment load at the time the center is shifted the structure can be placed in immediate progressive collapse. The countering moment and the impinging moment are now made to act together at a given joint. All equilibirum is lost and an actual rotation is realized in response to the released moments.

If all rotations of the limb are the same as in kokyu motion, then it is relatively harder to shift a progressive inward (gathering) or outward (cutting) centering of the limbs. If the rotations are already opposite (but aligned) at a joint to begin with -- as with a true push or pull --- then the joint is easily attacked and manipulated since the two limb segments already want to rotate together to bend.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-26-2007, 05:56 PM   #743
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You make it sound like we do aikido with blackboards on the dojo walls. Hardly. I have stood up here to defend training according to the transmitted kihon waza and kokyu undo as I was taught. The same strawman keeps being tossed in the ring repeatedly.
Your defense is noted, and your objections have been overwhelmingly overruled by more than a few. The only scarecrow here is your rotational model...

Quote:
I like to be able to think carefully about movments in physical terms -- to critique myself and to catch incorrect movements by students in the kihon that I might not otherwise see as precisely or be able to describe as well. I am better able to understand what the waza or kokyu movement is actually doing, physically. I find the language of 17th century mechanics is fairly well-suited to that line of thought.
Well bully for you... but waza is not kiso... and kokyu is not movement. I think we've established, beyond reasonable doubt, that we are talking about kiso... the REALLY old stuff that nobody does anymore... that is not really taught anymore...

So all your musing of 17th-21st century physics and mechanics defines the extent of your limited experience... of rotational kihon waza and kokyu "movements"....

Ignatius
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Old 02-26-2007, 07:57 PM   #744
Brion Toss
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Your defense is noted, and your objections have been overwhelmingly overruled by more than a few. The only scarecrow here is your rotational model...
Hmm, so now you have appointed yourself as judge, while simultaneously acting as advocate for the opposing side. Of course, this is not a courtroom, right?

Quote:
So all your musing of 17th-21st century physics and mechanics defines the extent of your limited experience... of rotational kihon waza and kokyu "movements"....
And now you are defining the limits of someone else's experience. Could we stick with constructive input? In M. Ueshiba's words,"I want considerate people to listen to the voice of Aikido. It is not for correcting others; it is for correcting your own mind."

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 02-26-2007, 08:07 PM   #745
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Brion Toss wrote: View Post
In M. Ueshiba's words,"I want considerate people to listen to the voice of Aikido. It is not for correcting others; it is for correcting your own mind."
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Old 02-26-2007, 09:11 PM   #746
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Brion Toss wrote: View Post
Hmm, so now you have appointed yourself as judge, while simultaneously acting as advocate for the opposing side. Of course, this is not a courtroom, right?
You know darn well that's simply not true.... But hey, I can take the heat... And you might want to check first though... who is on what side.... I think I'm on the proposing side....
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And now you are defining the limits of someone else's experience.
I don't have to... I'm merely re-stating the fact that that was already defined by the line of argument taken.

Ignatius
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Old 02-26-2007, 10:23 PM   #747
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
And you might want to check first though... who is on what side.... I think I'm on the proposing side....
By my count, you have the trifecta -- proposing, opposing, and disposing.

Of course, the proposing side has the burden of proof, so I'll accept your choice.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-26-2007 at 10:25 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-26-2007, 10:44 PM   #748
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Of course, the proposing side has the burden of proof, so I'll accept your choice.
Proof of what?

Proof that it works? Already done... go back and re-read the posts of any number of your detractors...

Proof that it is an essential part of Aikido? Asked and answered in the affirmative.

Somehow I doubt that any amount or type of proof would satisfy you enough to admit that your position is, and has been for sometime now, untenable...

The proof... as they say.... is in the tasting....

Ignatius
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Old 02-26-2007, 11:06 PM   #749
TomW
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
...The sytemic application of mechanical concepts nearly wiped out the practical utility of these "quaint" empty handed arts and classical arms as serious options in combat. It very nearly destroyed the last remnants of the warrior ethos in favor of the stamped-out soldiery of mass-production....
Oh, the irony of THAT statement. I absolutely could not have said it better my self.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Josh Lerner was from the KSR contingent, he was on the other side of the <STRIKE>pit of dispair</STRIKE> dojo most of the day.
Ah ha, it's all coming clear to me now. I didn't get a chance to work with him.

I know we just scratched the surface, but I got a lot out of the workshop, thanks again.

Last edited by TomW : 02-26-2007 at 11:12 PM.

Tom Wharton

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Old 02-26-2007, 11:26 PM   #750
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Proof of what? ....
You are the proposer -- you tell me, preferably in concrete terms. List of questions? -- still there, awaiting your detailed proposals.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
The proof... as they say.... is in the tasting....
And yet I do not recommend licking the Cat-5 cable ... This medium is good for some things. The dojo is good for other things. Why curse those who use this medium for things that are inadequate for your purpose elsewhere? In that, I sense a possible theme.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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