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Old 02-26-2007, 09:04 AM   #1
MM
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Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

I was fortunate enough to get to attend a small seminar/workshop with Mike and Rob. And since I've posted my experiences before, I thought I'd continue.

First, Mike and Rob are great guys. I actually had pictured Mike a bit bigger from seeing a picture of him, but hey, we all picture people differently until me meet them. They were both open and helpful and very good at explaining/teaching the skills they were showing.

I'll let others talk about the aspects of what actually went on during the seminar/workshop because I'm not great at remembering details.

I did get a chance to push on Mike and I couldn't move him. It's a weird feeling and hard to describe. It's not exactly like pushing against a solid brick wall because you get a different feedback from that. It's more like a solid hole. yeah, weird. I can feel I'm pushing but I don't get much feedback and it feels like all my energy is going into a hole, yet there's definitely something there because my hands say I'm pushing against something.

I did a little push hands with Rob and it felt the same. The structure was there and I found myself using muscle to push rather than using my whole body and the ground.

I felt a no-inch punch from Mike that nearly put me on the ground. Mike reached out and grabbed me before I fell, though.

And I had Rob kick me using muscle and then using whole body. The difference is amazing. I was holding a pad, no less, and I still felt the whole body kick go through me. Hunter mentioned later that it's like a wave going through one's body. Speaking of, Hunter was also very open and helpful with showing exercises and how to work on these skills. Thanks to him, along with Mike and Rob for everything.

If anyone has the chance, I would definitely encourage them to meet Mike or Rob.

Mark
 
Old 02-26-2007, 09:26 AM   #2
Don_Modesto
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Thanks for the report.

Sorry, who's Hunter?

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 02-26-2007, 09:38 AM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Thanks for the report Mark! I was hoping to make it myself, but work and family got in the way. Next time...
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-26-2007, 09:43 AM   #4
MM
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Thanks for the report.

Sorry, who's Hunter?

Thanks.
Hunter Lonsberry. He's a friend of Rob.

Mark
 
Old 02-26-2007, 06:20 PM   #5
eyrie
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I did get a chance to push on Mike and I couldn't move him. It's a weird feeling and hard to describe. It's not exactly like pushing against a solid brick wall because you get a different feedback from that. It's more like a solid hole. yeah, weird. I can feel I'm pushing but I don't get much feedback and it feels like all my energy is going into a hole, yet there's definitely something there because my hands say I'm pushing against something.
Tee hee.... there goes that "resistance" argument.

Ignatius
 
Old 02-26-2007, 08:27 PM   #6
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

OK, I'm back home, finally. DC has more snow than we do here in the Rockies.

Frankly, I'm a little turned off with the "Mike and Dan" turn of the "Baseline Skillsets" thread.... it's complete bullshit, unless you want to write Tohei off as some Aiki-Fruitcake that really never understood Aikido the way some of these western "teachers" do. Tohei has basically said the same thing... "Hey folks, these skills are so important that I'm making them the basics of the Aikido that I'm teaching". Ikeda, Inaba, Abe, and many others see the same thing. For some western "teacher" to indicate that these things are only tangential and that the real stuff in Systema, etc., gets sort of bizarre. The worst thing is biting my tongue reading some of these guys who "teach their students the "ki, kokyu, and Internal stuff" but who obviously don't know what they're talking about.

My suggestion on that is to get your ducks lined up. It's not about what you think you know... it's what you really know. And the idea that every opinion is equally valid and that it won't cost your reputation to freely expound your ideas as a "teacher" is a little shallow. Let's get real... all of this ki and kokyu stuff is not different, it's all the same thing. Ushiro knows it. Ikeda knows it. Tohei knows it, but thinks he can slide by. I knows it.

FWIW

Mike
 
Old 02-26-2007, 08:39 PM   #7
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

So.... back to the meeting thing.

It was nice to go to DC and meet a lot of people and also to kill off some meetings with my daughter in Germantown, my old college buddies, some karate friends, some members of the QiJing list and some of the AikiWeb guys... it was great fun.

Rob was a great guy. He transcends the usual martial-arts status stuff ("I am the BlackBelt!!!... OooooKoooKaJooooo!!!"... [borrowing from "I am the Walrus!!!"]). He's simply looking for the best way for all of these things to work. Watching his presentation at the mini-workshop, I got a good idea of the sort of shortcut that Akuzawa teaches. It's a good one. I learned stuff. I personally would add an opinion that a little more clearcut idea of the jin forces could be made, but we all have opinions, don't we? Just like armpits.

I also met a number of other guys and once again it comes back to me that a lot of the people I enjoy in martial arts are the ones who ignore the fluff/flummery and who are honest seekers. It was a lot of fun.

One of the opinions I came up with is that there is always something new that triggers the thought processes of "there has to be an easier way to teach these things". I think a lot of us got new ideas on viable approaches.

There's also something to be said about competition. I think it's a good thing that some people are getting their ideas from Ushiro, some via Akuzawa, some from Dan, some from Abe, etc. I think an unspoken 'competition' is a good thing. The drive to be the best and to know the most sounds superficially penny-ante, but it can be a good thing. I encourage people to pick from what appeals to them and go out an get it.... and then try to beat it. Always watch a teacher not with adoration, but with the idea that "I can beat him with a little knowledge and a lot of practice". And then go for it. These are the good times.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-26-2007, 09:41 PM   #8
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Thanks for the comments.. I'm glad to hear the get-together went off well.
 
Old 02-27-2007, 12:14 AM   #9
Aran Bright
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Hi all,

I am amazed that the whole base line skill thing was good for about four pages then went to poo and hasn't seem to come back since. And its by far the longest thread I've ever seen.

However this brings up the issue of where is a good place to discuss these ideas? I really feel that this deserves its own forum, a place where the principles can be discussed without the topic being high jacked by any one style of martial art.

You know, like an internal martial art utopia.

Aran

p.s. oh and I like the black hole thing, I had a similar experience with an aussie guy last weekend, except this black hole had arms!

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Old 02-27-2007, 01:53 AM   #10
Upyu
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Just noticed this thread!

Holla out to everyone that came out, good work, and I'm sorry we couldn't work out longer. A lot of material had to be compressed into a short time, but I hope people got more out of it than quads burning up from lactic acid (sorry chris, had to steal that line from you lol)

Likewise Mike's skill is awesome. I certainly got trounced when I got to touch hands with him later, but I learned a lot, and was especially struck by the way he managed to explain away a lot of the grounding concepts in a very easy to understand way.

Looking forward to the next time I get out there.

Oh and mad props to the Seattle Crew!
Chris, Kit, Jeremy, Josh and all, glad you all made it. Hopefully people were able to get a little bit of stuff out of my half assed "seminar".

Like Mike said, all of this induces healthy "competition", since I'm sure some people are going to be pounding away at the solo exercises...which gives me incentive to up my own game so I don't get my ass trashed next year ^^;
 
Old 02-27-2007, 08:10 AM   #11
DH
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Good on you guys

One caution I'd make is the competition is good and healthy but we are trying to make a statement of values of internal training to many unbelievers. One hold up of progress is in the dichotomy of actual delivery. Lets say internal guy #1 gets trounced by good fighter #2
To the fighter and to the watcher it diminishes the value and only a few intelligent guys will get that... "Hey wait a minute!! Even though he lost, that's some power!" "What if fighter #2 had used both his fighting skills and that power?"

Many people still can't read between the lines and see the value over technique and skill. Its why I argue on two fronts and try to say this training helps "you" be a better "you" at what you do. Its tough to break through to fighters unless you can bring it. I think its what has held many back from pursuing this training.
Rob it didn't matter if you get trounced by some good grapplers. Other than for your personal training benefit-which is substantial. BTW did I tell you I am so glad you decided to pursue MMA type things as a venue to play in an explore? And for FWIW I hope you felt the relaxed power of "good" grappling. Some of them seattle boys know what they're about. It aint muscle-boys at play. For those who still dont get it yet-the physical game of chess attracts just as many feet-on-the-floor, intelligent researchers as any other martial art...hell..scratch that. Maybe more.

I'll be prejudice a bit here and say It doesn't matter as much with less able arts they are far more easily overcome. But they are more easily overcome by good grapplers anyway. So there is a bit of a complex element that may be being added here that will only serve to muddy the waters. We need to each think of trying to be better for ourselves in what ever it is "we" each shoose to do. And that may not incorporate fighting at all or be MMA type of training. These skills and the effect they have on your body are useful in anything.

Anyway, there are now some dozen or so guys who have felt Rob and me or Mike and me and handful who have felt Rob, Mike and me. Perhaps there is enough "validation by witness" here on Aikiweb that the AIkido folks can address some of these western teachers who have openly said
1. It isn't important to aikido
2. It is but you folks need to only find it in Aikido
3. We shoudn't be talking about it since only aikido people understand AIki in aikido..zzzzz!

Be prepared though. I'm starting to be convinced that no amount of evidence is enough. Aiki from DR (Ueshibas main study), Aiki from Chinese influences (possibly an offshoot study) all being displayed one on one, hand to hand. And still denied. Were he alive today, these modern teachers would probably be arguing with Ueshiba himself.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-27-2007 at 08:21 AM.
 
Old 02-27-2007, 08:28 AM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Like Mike said, all of this induces healthy "competition", since I'm sure some people are going to be pounding away at the solo exercises...which gives me incentive to up my own game so I don't get my ass trashed next year ^^;
Yeah, me too. I'm too old to match the physical stamina, etc., of Rob, but I can sure give it a try for "next time". I saw several things I can use to modify my training to give me an edge for "next time". These kinds of meetings are great incentives.

I spent a number of hours working with both Aikido and Karate people and generally I think all of us could sense the lost abilities when the "internal" skills weren't being used. Besides.... O-Sensei, Tohei, Abe, and many others have all made it clear that this stuff is basic to Aikido. I really get annoyed at the marginalization by some Aikido people that this is a Rob or Dan or Mike or Ushiro or "nice hobby, but not really necessary" level of stuff. It's like the people who say those kinds of things are simply showing that they don't understand Aikido or that they think they're "close enough" so that they don't need to improve in skills that are mentioned over and over again in Aikido literature. And which 2 years ago these guys thought those skills were just exotic mouth-noises. "Oh, but I met Ushiro as Summer Camp, so now I'm up to snuff on that 'internal' stuff". Heh.

But back to the point.... yes, I think the competition approach is a great motivator. And I'm glad Rob and I finally got to meet up and compare notes so that I could see what Akuzawa's approach was. Two acquaintances of Rob's showed up who did "Shaolin" and Rob conned me into tagging both of them quickly so that they could feel what no-inch or low-inch power felt like. The looks on their faces were priceless, BUT, you could tell that they were motivated to learn how to do that themselves now... and since the mood among all of us was friendly and sharing, it was the best of all good times for martial artists to be together. It was a classic meeting. Thanks to Rob and Hunter for setting it up. It motivated everyone.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-27-2007, 09:01 AM   #13
MM
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

I'm still amazed at the opportunities I've gotten. I sit here in the middle of West Virginia and I shake my head in disbelief because it's hard to wrap my brain around the notion that I got to meet all three of you. And I'm thankful to each of you for that, not to mention how open and helpful you all have been.

And I'm certainly not going to waste that. I've added some of those exercises to the aikido class and I'm doing solo training at home. I may not be a fast learner, but I'll struggle through eventually with tenacity. I have Scottish blood from both sides of my family and people say I'm beyond stubborn. LOL. Maybe I can finally use that to a good advantage. I'll put the aiki back into aikido.

Thanks again,
Mark
 
Old 02-27-2007, 10:15 AM   #14
Josh Lerner
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

I'm really sorry I couldn't be there for the East Coast seminar, since I haven't had a chance to meet Mike yet. But many thanks to Rob for the time he spent with us in Seattle - it was an eye-opener, and for those of us who had been struggling trying to figure out the solo excercises from written descriptions and a couple of Youtube videos, it was incredibly helpful to get some hands-on instruction. Great thanks to Chris for organizing it - it was great to be around so many people who were all interested in the same thing.

There are probably more little details than I'll be able to remember. Plus, everyone needs the experience of being pushed around by someone who weighs at least 50 lbs less than you. It's a bittersweet mixture of depressing and inspiring.

Now to get Mike out to Seattle . . .

And to get Mike and Dan in the same room . . .

Josh
 
Old 02-27-2007, 10:17 AM   #15
DH
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I have Scottish blood from both sides of my family and people say I'm beyond stubborn. LOL. Maybe I can finally use that to a good advantage. I'll put the aiki back into aikido.
Thanks again,
Mark
From a Harden to a Murray I'd say "We're naturals." Kilts to Hakama..its all still "men in skirts" to us. You might want to fall in love with my clans weapon of choice-the spear. Must be in the blood.

You will get better with this, you just simply will. And without having to go back to the mysteries of endless forms and kata.
Hope to see ya soon
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-27-2007 at 10:20 AM.
 
Old 02-27-2007, 10:22 AM   #16
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Be prepared though. I'm starting to be convinced that no amount of evidence is enough. Aiki from DR (Ueshibas main study), Aiki from Chinese influences (possibly an offshoot study) all being displayed one on one, hand to hand. And still denied. Were he alive today, these modern teachers would probably be arguing with Ueshiba himself.
Cheers
Dan
I read about a study that was done... They took two groups and told them about an event. One group got a detailed account of the event from start to finish. The other group got only a sketchy version which left out substantial info. They were polled as to their opinions about the event. Then, gradually, the group that had started with incomplete information was given more info in stages and then polled after each instance. What they found was that new information only resulted in a 1 or 2 % change in opinion about what had happened. Better information does not change opinions.

It's not that folks don't hear what you are saying... it's that most folks don't want to change. Look at the Expos. Only a small part of the Aikido community went. Of those went, most went home and continued to do exactly what they had been doing before. Only a very small group looked at what was presented and radically changed what they were doing.

You can't get Aikido folks to train with each other (outside their group or organization), why would you think they'd be willing to think outside the box and train with folks from outside? I think that most Aikido people feel overwhelmed by the art on some level. The average student is probably training twice a week. Serious folks are probably training 3 to 4 times a week. Very few people are training every day.

So these folks look at what is presented within Aikido proper, even just within the style they do, and they don't feel they are going to master even that. So why would they look for more info from outside? They already feel they have enough to work on. They think they'll get around to looking at what you guys are talking about when they get to some future level when it makes sense to look for more.

The fact that it would make things one hell of a lot easier for these folks if they understood what you guys are doing just doesn't come into play. What you guys are talking about should be considered a basic foundation, not the advanced stuff we can look into later in life. But folks won't see it that way.

It's like how folks make decisions in a company. It is virtually the definition of irrational for someone to make decisions that they know will not advance their careers. It does not advance your career to accomplish things which your boss doesn't think is in your job description. Most folks are busy getting along in some organization, moving up the totem pole by learning what that organization has set out as the criteria for advancement. Does anyone actually think that most organizations would reward their students for developing these skills? I suspect that it would be just the opposite.

Most organizations and most teachers are busy perpetuating their own systems. I don't believe that most would reward the efforts of someone who went outside and developed skills that the majority of the group, especially the seniors, might not have. i think that most folks recognize this, even if it only unconsciously. So they do what will get rewarded within the organization, not what might make them the best at their art.

I think that folks really should think about the political implications of just going off, willy nilly, and training with Dan or Mike or the Systema folks, or whomever. It will change your Aikido. Then what happens? This kind of thing could destabilize Aikido all over the country, all over the world, my God it could be a revolution... In fact, I think Dan and Mike are really a threat to Homeland Security and should be reported before the get a chance to REALLY screw things up. People were happy before THEY started stirring things up... This could just be the end of civilization as we know it...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
 
Old 02-27-2007, 10:35 AM   #17
DH
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Ah.... you're killing me.
If I really wanted to shake things up I'd say
"Who is-really- doing Aikido?"
Funny how Ueshiba recognized it early on huh? Saw people doing things with their bodies and said Thats Aikido, saw his own students doing things and said that NOT my Aikido!! He taught some outsiders rapidly, expounded on everyone doing "your Aikido." As we know ge taught Tenryu in three months!! With him as a model then- just who, is doing what, that he would be pleased with? Who can stand there and say "This is -my- Aikido?" Maybe everyone!

In all seriousness If I could say any one-thing these skills can do...it is to demystify and lay out more of a clear foundation of how the art works.
You're right about politics and baggage thing.
I call it men peeing on trees. For this reason I've told several people in various arts not tell anyone what they'e doing. Just keep training till your teachers can't throw you and are scared to get hit by you.
Then these guys who have been working hard face a choice of Character. Be like the bastards who lied to so many of us and keep it for yourself. Or teach.
Thus the credit stays within the art.
No matter what machinations you have to go through-if you can find sincere people-help them!

Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-27-2007 at 10:48 AM.
 
Old 02-27-2007, 10:54 AM   #18
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
There are probably more little details than I'll be able to remember. Plus, everyone needs the experience of being pushed around by someone who weighs at least 50 lbs less than you. It's a bittersweet mixture of depressing and inspiring.
Actually, I got a kick out of seeing 2 or 3 smaller women over the weekend who were sort of "naturals" in their ability to pick up some aspects of the kokyu forces stuff very quickly. To feel them collapse my ribs slightly with their early attempts at power releases was a lot of fun. These women didn't weight 150 pounds... closer to 120, at best. Seeing the development of appreciable, usable power in small people is inspiring to me. Now they can turn around and begin to practice using that power in their Aikido and karate, respectively.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-27-2007, 11:17 AM   #19
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Greetings All,

Since my dojo and I hosted this meeting, my comments are long overdue. We met on Friday, February 23, from 6:30 to 9:30. There were about 20 people on the mat, mostly my students. The aikido experience ranged from 3rd kyu to 5th dan. A couple of local Uechi-ryu karateka joined us, as well as Mark Murray and Hunter Lonsberry.

Murry McPherson's reaction to working with Dan Harden (see Baseline Skillset thread) precisely describes my reaction to working with Mike Sigman and (to a lesser extent) Rob John:
Quote:
Murray McPherson wrote: View Post
And the sad truth is that what I felt was so far removed from standard aikido (or judo, or karate, for that matter) that I had the not entirely pleasant sensation of feeling simultaneously excited by the possibility of it all, yet resentful and angry that these skills are not understood and/or taught as the essential building blocks of skill, from day one.
It was a whirlwind tour, but quite valuable. Rob has a level of connectedness that I have felt in very few aikido people --- and certainly nobody who has trained for the relatively few years Rob has. It is quite clear to me that daily practice of several of Akuzawa's solo exercises will qualitatively improve my aikido, so I'm doing that. Rob has a great attitude, and led the class effectively. Thanks to Hunter Lonsbury for facilitating Rob's part of the meeting.

Mike Sigman is frighteningly good, and I do not use that adverb lightly. I've met people who can root themselves strongly, and he is certainly the best I have felt. The class spent a fair amount of time engaged in learning how to work on that ability, both statically and dynamically, and yes, Dan Harden is right --- it involves a lot of pushing on each other. But the truly impressive thing about is that he has the ability to put his power out explosively in any direction, either focused into a point, or spread out over his frame. He also was able to "merge" with incoming force immediately with no apparent effort. He was very generous with his time and skill, and provided a number of things for us to work on within an aikido context. He has a very clear way of illustrating and practicing Hiroshi Ikeda-sensei's oft-repeated admonition to "put the weight on" the place where uke makes contact. For the curious, it is the demonstration of how to "let the weight of your crotch be in your partner's hands."

Mike also met with me and a couple of other dojo members at my home for several hours on Sunday. This meeting demonstrated to me that learning and studying internal skills is best accomplished in small groups. (Dan Harden is right about that as well. ) It is clear to me that I will have to loosen my upper and lower back, as well as attend to my breathing, to make progress with the things that Mike taught. At the same time, it is quite clear to me that it is possible to learn these skills, and that they will significantly improve the quality of my aikido.

In sum, my dojo and I were quite pleased with both Rob and Mike. They have something to offer, and I am personally grateful that they agreed to share it.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
 
Old 02-27-2007, 11:22 AM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

A true man finds truth where it is, and invites it in. I'm so glad that this event was at such a high level. Wishing even more I could have made it down.

Best to you and your dojo,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 02-27-2007, 11:55 AM   #21
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

It was a great experience. You guys should come back again sometime when the weather is nicer.

Thanks for all the insight,
Rob
 
Old 02-27-2007, 11:55 AM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
For the curious, it is the demonstration of how to "let the weight of your crotch be in your partner's hands."
No, no, no!!! The weight from your crotch shoule be in YOUR hands, or your elbows, or your shoulder, or wherever. Not HIS hands! That's obscene.

I had a great time meeting Jim, his wife, and his dojo-members. It was a good crowd. All we had time to do was a few things, but at least it's a pointer in which way to go. I engage in a lot of these conversations because they motivate me to get better, I get tidbits of interesting information, and so on...... but one of the things I always remember that made me bitter so many times when I was searching in Aikido practice was that it was hard to get information about these skills from anyone. Whenever I show what little I know, I remember that there are people who are just like I was, looking hard to find information in some pretty dry territory, so I always pretend it's me out there and I try to tell that "me" the things I would have wanted to know to get me started correctly. We each owe it to the selves of our past in the people we meet today.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-27-2007, 12:11 PM   #23
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Hi Mike,
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
No, no, no!!! The weight from your crotch shoule be in YOUR hands, or your elbows, or your shoulder, or wherever. Not HIS hands! That's obscene.
Well, I always have had a problem with boundaries.

Thanks again!

Jim
 
Old 02-27-2007, 12:40 PM   #24
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I felt a no-inch punch from Mike that nearly put me on the ground.
go Mike! putting words into action...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
And I had Rob kick me using muscle and then using whole body. Hunter mentioned later that it's like a wave going through one's body
impressive and thought provoking.
 
Old 02-27-2007, 12:50 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote: View Post
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
I felt a no-inch punch from Mike that nearly put me on the ground.
go Mike! putting words into action...
Well, I didn't do a no-inch punch on anyone, not really. I did a few no-inch power-releases but I was careful to only use my palm or my shoulder for those and I wasn't trying to do more than just demonstrate the idea. The point I'm making is that I discourage anyone from doing demo's that can potentially damage Uke and I wouldn't want anyone to think I revelled in that sort of thing.

Best.

Mike
 

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