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Old 02-23-2007, 05:28 PM   #1
divinecedar
 
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Question Cross Discipline Training

Hello! I'm new to the forum and have a question. Is training outside of the dojo with people from different martial disciplines generally acceptable within the Aikido world? I've done a little light "sparring" with people who have trained in Gracie Jujitsu, Tae Kwon Do, wrestling, etc and have heard that this is looked down upon. Why is this?
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Old 02-23-2007, 09:04 PM   #2
SeiserL
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

IMHO, it depends on your teacher and school. We were encouraged to cross-train. I think its a security-ego things.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:06 AM   #3
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

Not looked down upon where I come from. It is really your business what you do with your time I believe.

That said, when in an aikido dojo, do aikido.

Obviously your training in other styles will influence you, cause you to question things, and might cause you conflict from time to time. It will be apart of you for sure.

It is all apart of your personal growth and learning.

How you handle it, and how your instructor handles it is a personal relationship between the two of you.

How that plays out? It depends on many factors.

Both of you must have the maturity, patience, respect, and the skill to work through these issues without them being a distractor to everyone else and your respective dojos.

If it is disruptive and a distraction, well I would think both you and the instructor in aikido would know this, and would probably part ways at some point.

I don't think you should feel as if you cannot study other things, however, make sure always you know why you are studying what you are studying, and being honest with yourself, and your instructors who are taking the time to help you.

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Old 02-24-2007, 06:09 AM   #4
Mark Uttech
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

In a free world, what you do is up to you.

In gassho

Mark
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:14 AM   #5
gregg block
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

People who look down upon this probrably have not come to the realization that to become a true martial artist you cannot be bound by one system or style. This system is better than that system ect. There is value and validity in all systems. One technique in one style may work well for one individual and for another individual the opposite may be true. I trained for many years in tae-kwon-do, kickboxing, boxing, have had some Judo and grappling experience and about a year ago started seriously training in aikido. I think experience in different martial arts has made me more complete and more able to adapt to different situations. Bruce Lee's entire style was based on being beyond one system and adopting techniques that are useful and disregarding ones which were not. Which techniques get adopted and which get disregarded will vary by individual.
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Old 02-24-2007, 12:18 PM   #6
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

The hard part is cross-training and then restraining yourself from losing respect for those people who don't cross-train.
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Old 02-24-2007, 12:23 PM   #7
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

I have never had this problem Lyle. Some people simply do things for different reasons and have different focuses.

Most of my aikido mates in my dojo back home don't cross train, frankly they are much better at understanding aikido than I probably will ever be.

Therefore, there is always much respect for them as I learn from them as they have so much to share and teach me.

Same conversely with the other arts.

My crosstraining is about me and not about them and what they cannot do or their limitations.

I'd say if you don't have respect for them, then they don't have anything to offer you, so why would you waste your time training with them.

That is sort of what I meant about being honest with yourself, and honest with them.

Your crosstraining should not invalidate what you are doing in another art. If it does, then it becomes a no brainer and easy to stop doing it as it serves no value to you at that point.

I have not found this to be the case in my studies however.

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Old 02-24-2007, 05:12 PM   #8
divinecedar
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

I really find that it gives you an added flexibility. I still prefer to do Aikido to anything, but sometimes people don't attack you in a manner that you can utilize effectively with Aikido. So, I've been supplementing my Aikido techniques with Judo sweeps, etc.
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:09 AM   #9
RoyK
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

Quote:
Cody Bruce wrote: View Post
I really find that it gives you an added flexibility. I still prefer to do Aikido to anything, but sometimes people don't attack you in a manner that you can utilize effectively with Aikido. So, I've been supplementing my Aikido techniques with Judo sweeps, etc.
I think I've heard somewhere that Ueshiba used sweeps sometimes for kuzushi. I sometimes use them too, but usually to cover up holes in my technique

Regardless, in my opinion, we don't live in a time where in order to study from a master you had to live in his dojo, practice from dusk to dawn, and he controlled your life in every way imaginable. You study Aikido in your spare time, and you're the only master of what you do with your spare time.

If you do choose to cross train or spar, I think It's a good idea to ask for your teacher's opinion or even approval. After all, you are his student free willingly, you probably have respect for his knowledge and judgment.
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:20 AM   #10
Amir Krause
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

I think most of you are missing one point: Phases of development.

Personally, I do believe cross training to be a positive thing, but not at every stage of learning.

During my fourth year of studying Aikido, I joined my teachers Karate group too (my teacher has Korindo Aikido, Karate and Judo groups and has studied all of these 3 arts in depth - above 6th Dan level). After some time, some of my Sempai told me the Karate studies are hindering my development in Aikido. I lost the softness I was developing and became stiff (a better contrast to "soft" in the M.A. sense). This was one of the reasons I decided to stop the Karate.

A few years down the line, I had free time once again, and added TKD with another teacher to my studies, in addition to Aikido. This time I only found my horizons widen, and the TKD increased my Aikido (my Aikido habits were very problematic for some of the TKD practice such as Pumse/Kata).

The same hold true for any other type of cross-training. It is not generally a wrong thing. But at some points in your development, it may be more of an obstacle then progress. A good teacher may therefore ask you not to cross train during those times.

Another bad example could be a beginner who starts learning a technique and then tries to utilize it in a cross training sparring, fails and thus changes the way he does this technique - so it will work better. In theory - this is a great way for development, in practice, the beginner has yet to really learn the technique and the opportunities for it, before he starts growing out of it.

Thus - cross training is great, but should be done correctly and appropriately, taking into consideration you development.

Amir
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:13 AM   #11
Mark Uttech
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

Jesus is an example of the dark side of cross training.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 02-25-2007, 10:07 AM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

Amir,

I agree with you. Everything comes at a price. We only have so much time to devote to study.

If our goal is to become the best aikidoka we can become, we should devote as much time as we have available to be the best aikidoka we can.

If our goal is to be the best judoka, then we should study judo as much as we can.

However, each is on a different path, so some may want to study many things.

Some are hard headed like myself, and must learn and question very critically as we go! Hence why I have been studying Aikido for like the last 11 years and STILL have not achieved shodan!

However, as I stated, it comes at a price. If we are not willing to put the time or effort into our studies, we should not expect our sensei and teachers to spend an inordinate amount of time teaching us.

I know if I have students that want to take my time, yet do not put forth an honest effort to learn, then I grow tired and impatient with them if they are not going to devote the proper attention to there training.

I personally will be torn once returning to my aikido dojo this summer. I have to train in both aikido and BJJ AND have a job AND family!

So I will split my time between all of that!

I will not however expect my aikido instructor to work with me, if I am not putting forth the right effort in my training.

That is one thing to consider when cross training for sure!

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Old 02-25-2007, 03:04 PM   #13
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Jesus is an example of the dark side of cross training.

In gassho,

Mark
You drop a bomb like that, care to expand on that one.....
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:23 PM   #14
Mark Freeman
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

Quote:
Kevin Hagens wrote: View Post
You drop a bomb like that, care to expand on that one.....
I think Mark's tongue was in his cheek when he wrote that Kevin, given Jesus' experience with a certain cross

regards,

Mark
p.s. then again I may have missinterpreted, in which case...

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:31 PM   #15
Mark Uttech
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

'Tongue in cheek' is the correct interpretation.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:38 PM   #16
divinecedar
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

I have never been more grateful for any "training" spent on a cross. Eternal salvation and freedom from sin transcends martial arts considerably! Thank you Jesus!
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Old 02-25-2007, 08:34 PM   #17
Hebrew Hammer
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I think Mark's tongue was in his cheek when he wrote that Kevin, given Jesus' experience with a certain cross

regards,

Mark
p.s. then again I may have missinterpreted, in which case...
No worries I wasn't offended just didnt' get it...now I feel stupid for not getting the obvious play on words. My appologies...I'm usually quicker on the take.
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Old 02-26-2007, 01:57 AM   #18
Amir Krause
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Amir,

I agree with you. Everything comes at a price. We only have so much time to devote to study.

If our goal is to become the best aikidoka we can become, we should devote as much time as we have available to be the best aikidoka we can.

If our goal is to be the best judoka, then we should study judo as much as we can.

However, each is on a different path, so some may want to study many things.

Some are hard headed like myself, and must learn and question very critically as we go! Hence why I have been studying Aikido for like the last 11 years and STILL have not achieved shodan!

However, as I stated, it comes at a price. If we are not willing to put the time or effort into our studies, we should not expect our sensei and teachers to spend an inordinate amount of time teaching us.

I know if I have students that want to take my time, yet do not put forth an honest effort to learn, then I grow tired and impatient with them if they are not going to devote the proper attention to there training.

I personally will be torn once returning to my aikido dojo this summer. I have to train in both aikido and BJJ AND have a job AND family!

So I will split my time between all of that!

I will not however expect my aikido instructor to work with me, if I am not putting forth the right effort in my training.

That is one thing to consider when cross training for sure!
I Agree
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Old 02-27-2007, 06:18 AM   #19
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Cross Discipline Training

I have always cross trained from the very first moment I stepped onto the floor.
At first the differences were confusing at best, I couldn't understand..except perhaps what was glaringly obvious. Over time though (I'm talking several years), on an innate level, I started to understand the differences..yet I also began to see the similarities.
My Sensei had always said "there are only so many ways the human body can move", I'm sure many people have heard that one before. So the lesson in that was, for each movement there are many variations within each principle.
I remember my Sensei asking me to demonstrate the differences between several styles of Aiki and Karate, using only one technique. I then had to explain the intention and energy distribution for each one....It was a very valuable lesson, and it has added an entirely new dimension to learning and teaching. Of course in Karate, I only practice Karate (except in Kumite, when I covertly sneak in an aiki technique) and vice versa when I'm in my Aiki class-I'll utilize my Karate atemi in randori.

There should be no fear if one choses to cross train, I only suggest that the cup remains empty when studying different disciplines.

Last edited by natasha cebek : 02-27-2007 at 06:22 AM.

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