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Old 02-23-2007, 12:32 AM   #651
TomW
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I am with you. Your catalog of the possibilities is just not quite complete. His butt is not a pin, but a hinge. One hinge at the ground, one hinge at the shoulder/neck, one hinge at the head/neck, and a hinge at the push connection, There are also potential hinges at the attacker's wrist, elbow and shoulder. O Sensei also has quasi-hinges in the waist/spine It is fairly isolated in this posture, but it is useable to control the hinge at the ground by counterwieght of the legs.

Three hinges are within his immediate control. If he takes control of the connection hinge by kokyu methods (which the video demonstrates -- he does not allow the pusher to establish a stable connection) he then has four hinges to manipulate. He has created a four-hinge "arch" which is, in fact, a mechanism. It will not support the load statically and it will not bear weight except along one supercritical funicular path without the whole arch collapsing.

His use of kokyu ensures that it is the other side of the arch that does the collapsing part. If he has the proper funicular shape for his own weight load and connects to the push with motion tangentially up or down or sideways, his structure remains intact and their structure collapses from the applied rotation.

Because he took the linear momentum and coverted it to angular monentum at the point of connection with perpendicular force or tangential rotation, he never bears the linear force of the push on his side of the connection, and he does not violate the Third Law. Pure math likes linear forces. Engineering mechanics has non-zero-dimension material substances and non-point action. Therefore the moments and shears tend to control the solutions more than the linear forces.

He just sits there on his butt and rolls the the connection into the ground or into the sky with his head (ten chi), and that propagates the kokyu rotations up the chain of the attacking arm, where any inconsistent joint rotations will instantly hinge the wrong way and then collapse, because they are applying a substantial load to that joint that is inconsistent with the induced rotation. Kuzushi.

Although we are talking about angular momentum, rather than linear momentum -- the attacker can no more easily stop transfer of angular momentum up the chain of his arm than the ball in the middle of the "clacking balls" inertial toy, described earlier, can stop transmitting the linear momentum to the next ball in the line. Stiffening in an attempt to dampen it actually makes it worse by reducing the effective radius of the propagating wave of angular momentum transfer in the limb, creating a "shock" toward his center, like the cracking of the whip.

IF he grounded the forces in that scenario and formed a pinned joint at the ground, as you suggest he would effectively REMOVE one hinge under his control, and thus would be LESS able to avoid being moved or toppled.
Well, this just might be semantics, but a hinge is a pin connection. The joints of the body are moment connections (or REALLY stiff hinges) in the manner you describe, shear and moment are developed by linear forces, structural engineers build entire cities by modeling loads as linear forces. Rotational mechanics implies velocity, and the force is statically applied so "we" aren't talking about angular momentum, or linear momentum for that matter. An arch with four hinges will collapse.

I do understand what you are trying to describe, I just don't think it's happening in this case.

I went to the workshop in Seattle last weekend that Chris Moses put on with Rob John. We did an exercise called push hands where you and a partner stand face to face, one arm length apart. You stand knees straight, forearms parallel to the ground, like the down push-up position, your partner stand similarly, but in the up push-up position with your hands touching. The same conditions apply as Iggy describes in his exercise above, effectively eliminating what you call rotational mechanics out of the game. Now push your partner back. I was the smallest person in the room. I've just finished yarding my semi-old ass through engineering school, so I have a better than average grasp of the laws of physics, engineering mechanics, structural analysis etc., and I'm rather skeptical of the "woo woo" stuff to boot. I could push my partners back without putting myself in kuzushi (most of the time).

For what it's worth,
Tom Wharton

P.S. Thanks to Rob, Chris, Jeremy and the boys, I had a great time.
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Old 02-23-2007, 03:32 PM   #652
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tom Wharton wrote: View Post
Well, this just might be semantics, but a hinge is a pin connection.
Tom Wharton
I learned three classes of engineering structural connections:

1) a roller joint which is free to move laterally without friction and to pivot freely at the point of support,

2) a hinge joint which can pivot freely about the point of support but not move laterally

3) a pinned or fixed joint that is not free to move laterally or to pivot.

Trusses or spaceframes must have pinned or fixed joints.

Stable arches can have pinned joints or up to three hinges, but no rollers.

A beam can have any combination of the three. (Continuous beams can have more that two points of support.)

There is a fourth, of a sort, but plastic connections are very non-linear.

Quote:
Tom Wharton wrote: View Post
I went to the workshop in Seattle last weekend that Chris Moses put on with Rob John. We did an exercise called push hands where you and a partner stand face to face, one arm length apart. You stand knees straight, forearms parallel to the ground, like the down push-up position, your partner stand similarly, but in the up push-up position with your hands touching. The same conditions apply as Iggy describes in his exercise above, effectively eliminating what you call rotational mechanics out of the game. Now push your partner back. I was the smallest person in the room. I've just finished yarding my semi-old ass through engineering school, so I have a better than average grasp of the laws of physics, engineering mechanics, structural analysis etc., and I'm rather skeptical of the "woo woo" stuff to boot. I could push my partners back without putting myself in kuzushi (most of the time).
"Seemingly eliminating" but not actually, or even "effectively elminating." There is a video that shows this precise exercise done in a gym of some kind, that Mike or Rob, maybe, posted. Very clearly there is a lead irimi of the hips by the pusher. The pusher pivots the legs and hips forward, centered at the ground. Then that angular momentum is transferred to the torso at the shoulder level, by letting the shoulders come forward as the hips go back which simultaneously restores the hips to center, and delivers the push impulse from the shoulder level. The arms merely connect the push to the shoulders, and are used to modulate the rhythm.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-23-2007, 04:25 PM   #653
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tom Wharton wrote: View Post
I do understand what you are trying to describe, I just don't think it's happening in this case.
The same conditions apply as Iggy describes in his exercise above, effectively eliminating what you call rotational mechanics out of the game. Now push your partner back. I was the smallest person in the room. I've just finished yarding my semi-old ass through engineering school, so I have a better than average grasp of the laws of physics, engineering mechanics, structural analysis etc., and I'm rather skeptical of the "woo woo" stuff to boot. I could push my partners back without putting myself in kuzushi (most of the time).
For what it's worth,
Tom Wharton
Interesting Tom.
May I ask were you able to push Rob?
Josh?

I found your response to Eric’s ideas interesting. Forget the tests- the truth is that most people are unable to do many of the exercises !! The tests come later. The way to accomplish them is far less complex than Eric Describes.

The push out test and rotation
Eric
I've offered a whole different idea to Arks push-out exercise that we do.
I stand in a feet-parallel stance,. knees locked, elbows locked, with the "other " person in hanmi. The key differences here are that I am feet parallel they are hanmi, and we both have our arms out in locked-elbow position. The one in hanmi is asked to "walk" through me.
All while I am standing like a stick. Since most guys I do this with have no structure-they can't even lift a foot off the ground. But I am not moving.
Can you do this?

Same thing when they push on the head. I don’t do What Ushiba does either. I'l stand upright and have someone push on my head-hard. Again, no movement. Nothing visible resisting.
Can you do this?

Or again with a two hundred pound man pushing horizontally or upright at an angle on your chest and not fall over.
Can you do this?

I don’t argue physics, Bud. I'll leave that to you.
But Mike has asked, I have as well. Can you do these things? These things are simple but take time to learn. Since I do nothing you describe but I can do these things. I wonder if you can as well with all your theories.

Once again I hope folks understand these are simply "tests" of structure. Tests of what your training is building inside of you. While it is a tremendous advantage in fighting-If you don't know how to fight....ya still can't fight.

Structure and Use in Martial arts
I enter these discussions arguing on two fronts. One is internal skills one is fighting skills. They are NOT the same. Internal skills are the single greatest advantage that you can have. No matter what you do it will improve it. If you train to build this structure and then to utilize these skills in you and you do Aikido, your aikido will be vastly improved. If you train MMA and add these skills it will add to your game stand up, on the ground or what have you. It also "helps you" if you are outgunned by a better man Though all in all, equal internal skills to skills learned- I’d still bet on the MMA’er fro the best combination of skill sets. Its like having double insurance.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-23-2007 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 02-23-2007, 06:32 PM   #654
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The push out test and rotation
Eric
I've offered a whole different idea to Arks push-out exercise that we do.
I stand in a feet-parallel stance, knees locked, elbows locked, ... not moving ... push on my head-hard. Again, no movement. ... pushing horizontally ... not fall over.
Can you do this?
Well, I'd certainly want to be sure that I did them correctly according to your exacting standards. Why don't you go visit Jim Sorrentino since he has kindly invited you and film some video while he pushes at you as an independent participant. Then I'll know if I am doing it correctly, and then I can be sure to answer your question without any possibility of misunderstanding -- unlike the last time you asked it.

Unlike you, I am not here trying to prove anything. I am merely trying to bring a physical perspective to the fundamentals of what aikido already is and does from its tradition in training, and to counter your advocacy about what it isn't and -- in your mind -- should be. Not that you do not do useful things, but they are problematic, for reasons I have already said plenty about.

If pushed -- turn; if pulled -- enter.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-23-2007 at 06:35 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:19 PM   #655
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Well
We were talking about tests. You are the one wanting to get scientific. So yes I was giving certain standards. If you know your body-you know your body and those should be easy. If your rotational dynamics are real and we are supposed to believe they are the way Ueshiba was doing things then those examples are a cake walk to a fella like yourself.

As for your wanting some independent evaluation by Aikido people who were total strangers to me? Hmmm....let me think, Like the people who have written here already? Sort of Like Mark Murray, Murry Mcpherson, Stan Baker, and Rob Liberti? Who have already written in? People Like that Eric? I could recite about a dozen more but they don't post here. Then again there a few CMA, MMA and Koryu chaps as well, not to mention about a hundred folks who read here who know me.
How about just sticking to the point? I think that would be more beneficial.
I have never given you a hard time. I just respectuflly dissagree with you. The point is you keep telling us how you are doing these things. I'm trying to determine -what things?
Can you do these things?

Now as to Aikido being turn when pushed, / enter when pulled.
Can you explain WHY we have many vidoes of Ueshiba remaining stationary against a push and then even pushin back?
Not how....you'll go into a rotational theory.
Just WHY we see it. JUst that difference will do.
And why others who trained with him described his wanting to be pushed while he remained immobable or pushing back
Or why he had multiple men pushing on him with many written witnesses while he stood there and......did not turn when pushed.
Thoughts, any thoughts at all?
Can you answer -why- you think that is? In defiance to your quoted definition of what Aikido ...is.?


Last up is why we think it is the essense of all AIkido is.
If you notice I don't debate you on the merits of what it brings to Aikido. I don't think we can agree. So I don't see the point in debating it. If we meet I'll let you try anything from Aikido on me and see what you can make of it. I'll buy the beers.
But since we can't agree on that, I thought we could agree on whether or not you can do these things.
If you can't
1.Then just what are you describing doing? I mean what the heck are the results
2.If you can't then why wouldn't you just say yo not only canlt do them but you don't know how the heck they are being done.
Anythings better then saying you can't do them, then telling us how they are being done.
I still hope to dissagree in a friendly manner.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-23-2007 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 02-23-2007, 09:20 PM   #656
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If pushed -- turn; if pulled -- enter.
My Japanese isn't all that good, but... I believe (and according to WWWJDIC)... tenkan 転換 doesn't quite mean "turn"... it means convert/divert. Perhaps on it's own, 転 might mean revolve, turn around, or change and 換 means to change.

Irimi doesn't quite mean "enter" (as in "step in") either. Iru 入る means to get in; to go in; to come in; to flow into; to set; to set in; Thus irimi 入身means something else completely... in that context.

I'm guessing, but Josh L can corroborate the syntactical validity...or maybe someone can provide the Japanese source of this quote?

Ignatius
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Old 02-23-2007, 09:36 PM   #657
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

I was waiting for a reply while I'm sitting here working.
Turning and entering can be resolved in the body with no evident motion. In fact from Zero create the motion in them. From there and IMO only from there does motion become evident. Turning is the axle, entering the beam. Both are "change." And both work to do either. We are not limited to just turning sideways, nor to entering straight-in.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-23-2007 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 02-24-2007, 12:30 PM   #658
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

Entering with the body
Entering with the mind
Entering with the body...but without *overt* movement
same with Turning...Diverting...etc.

Same again with the breath.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:01 PM   #659
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well
We were talking about tests. You are the one wanting to get scientific. So yes I was giving certain standards. If you know your body-you know your body and those should be easy. If your rotational dynamics are real and we are supposed to believe they are the way Ueshiba was doing things then those examples are a cake walk to a fella like yourself.
Ummm. Tests cannot be scientific ? You are talking about "not moving." It is fairly clear at this point that we do not agree on what constitutes "not moving."
Mike described O Sensei as "not moving" in the videos. I looked at his videos and I saw (and described in detail) him moving quite a bit around the forces being applied.

If we cannot agree on what "moving" or "not moving" in this context even mean, your questions are meaningless in this forum without an objective basis -- such as video.

It is fairly clear from your statement that you yourself intend to do something O Sensei is NOT seen doing on those videos, since you expressly said so.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Now as to Aikido being turn when pushed, / enter when pulled.
Can you explain WHY we have many vidoes of Ueshiba remaining stationary against a push and then even pushing back?
Not how....you'll go into a rotational theory.
Just WHY we see it. JUst that difference will do.
It is quite simple, and is true of all the "strength contests" he gave to those WHO ASKED.

The answer is what he said -- because there is no point pushing directly on someone who knows the secret of aikido.

So a simple question is begged -- for those who actually want to practice aikido -- Why in the world would you ever want to push directly against the force of anyone pushing on you?

In every anecdote or report I have read he did not offer them -- THEY ASKED for them. So he showed them, at their request, how pointless their ideas of "strength" and resistance truly were in the face of non-resistance.

The response to the push and the manner of pushing back are not contrary to one another, from my standpoint. I cannot explain your perceptions, nor do we agree on the premises (about how he is affecting his partner -- which is critical -- a negating push or perpendicular/tangential push).

He was engaged in showmanship, in other words. He was a good one, too.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Last up is why we think it is the essense of all AIkido is.
If you notice I don't debate you on the merits of what it brings to Aikido.
I had noticed.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If we meet I'll let you try anything from Aikido on me and see what you can make of it.
Aikido is not about "trying" anything on anyone. I am not a showman. If I wanted simply to be a more effective "fighter", I would choose from among many more effective means, far more deadly. Aikido is budo that is headed someplace else. I also do not treat it as "play" as you often refer to your training. It can be enjoyable. It is not idle or lack in deadly seriousness, even so. You seem headed in a direction that I find doubtful.

I base that conclusion not on my personal opinion, but on some subtantial authority and evidence from O Sensei himself. My point (and as I see it, O Sensei's point as well) is that pushing back directly or being in the line of force to have to push back is a step down a bad road. His point -- there is another way.

You may say this is a small quibble, a trivial objection -- It is "only a little bit" of resisting -- For training, you say. You are right -- it is a small objection -- made well before anything of great consequence has occurred.

"When the avalanche has begun, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-24-2007 at 01:05 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-24-2007, 02:51 PM   #660
M. McPherson
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If we cannot agree on what "moving" or "not moving" in this context even mean, your questions are meaningless in this forum without an objective basis -- such as video.
[Qualifier: I wouldn't normally wouldn't get sucked into this conversation, except that, as Dan mentioned me as being one of the folks who met him and felt what he can do, I thought I might be able to provide some further testimony to what he and others are talking about. So as one of the formerly oblivious who can now state unequivocally that not only can Dan do what he writes about, but can do that and more, I offer the following]

Mr. Mead, I can tell you that video is *not* an objective source of comparison. Hie thee to an internal instructor and feel it for yourself. If, that is, you truly want an objective basis for comparison.
Until I actually met Dan, most of the battling back and forth on this subject really didn't hold much meaning for me. Who was right? Who was wrong? Who really cared? All that I could see were people on one side of the argument (a true minority, mind you) who knew of a way of structuring and and moving the body that was fairly radical, but, to them, an integral - if almost completely unknown, anymore - component of not only *all* martial arts, but of physical movement in any endeavor.
On the other side were/are most of us: people who signed on to aikido, karate, judo, etc, and did what was taught to us by instructors we respected. If these teachers were Asian, or held a certain rank, or had lived abroad in Japan since before most of us were born, or had been doing the art for x-amount of years, and could thrash kohai left and right...well, then it must be the real.
Hell, I learned aikido in Japan, from a tenth dan, and had plenty of high rankers showing me what was what. So that must be aikido, right? We even had plenty of aiki tourists in from Honbu and abroad, doing some variation of the same thing. Must be gospel.
So to read stuff from Rob John, Mike Sigman, and Dan - all questioning the status quo, all asking why the majority of Ueshiba Morihei's students (or even Takeda's) could not do anything even close to what they could - well, you'd probably be dismissive, or even some degree of pissed off that a bunch of outsiders are even questioning, let along challenging aikido dogma.
On the other hand, you might be curious, and want to *feel* what they're doing for yourself. No, not to try to glean from a video how they're moving (or not, because in all honesty, you won't see much movement at all), or even argue ad nauseum online about what not only constitutes "aikido," but what movement is (which all too easily descends into the realm of Clintonian rhetoric). But to actually step on a mat with one of these guys and see what they're talking about.
I did.
And the sad truth is that what I felt was so far removed from standard aikido (or judo, or karate, for that matter) that I had the not entirely pleasant sensation of feeling simultaneously excited by the possibility of it all, yet resentful and angry that these skills are not understood and/or taught as the essential building blocks of skill, from day one.
So, yes, Dan's questions are meaningless in this forum, but I don't think it was his intent to have you try to answer them on this or any other forum. His intent was to get you to answer them for yourself with someone right in front of you who could demonstrate these principles.
Also, I know that it can seem more than a bit grating to have the internal folks tell you that it's obvious by what you write, the language you use, that you don't have a clue what they're talking about. But they're correct. And I'm telling you that from the perspective of someone who didn't have any idea what they were talking about all that long ago, and would have previously offered many of the same descriptors to illustrate my conception of what "internal" is that you have throughout your posts.
Also, with regards to showmanship, judging from the number of video clips offered on Aikido Journal, Ueshiba could have had an alternate career in the movies. No shrinking violet, him. One gets the impression that a modern incarnation of Morihei would be the featured guest on many a Japanese variety show, the assorted tarento fawning and in awe.

Regards,
Murray McPherson

Last edited by M. McPherson : 02-24-2007 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:21 PM   #661
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hi Murry
Hope it was OK to mention you.
Excellent post-BTW I wish I could write as well as you
You did bring up a few interesting points:
1. The fact that curious folks are getting out and feeling it.
2. The fact that many share a profound sense that they have been ripped off. Either outright from their teachers who know the skills but will not teach them. Or questioning whether their teacher ever had it at all.
3. I would add the folks I have met with injuries from the art-many that will be with them for life, all while trying diligently to learn it.

Eric
I trust it does not escape your attention that that those who felt these skills in various places now number in the dozens just here on Aikiweb.
No one is writing in agreeing with you.
No one....none.

You seem to have an analytical mind.
Can you explain why it is that all these Aikido folks are feeling these skills and writng back and telling you it IS Aikido?
Or why some have writtne here that it is the foundation of their arts as well?
Why Judo guys are seeing and saying this is critical to Judo?
Why CMA'ers say.."That is Taiji!"

I find it odd that you can read the various quotes that have been entered here over these last few years and you not only dismiss Rob, Mike and Me but you have dismissed all your fellow Aikido practitioners and teachers -who all having finally felt these skills- to a man dissagree with you as well.
Are you going on record stating you understaind Aikido better than these men?

I'll keep showing these things to AIkido folks. I just finished a one day seminar with 5 more Aikido folks-three of whom are teachers. All of them were in agreement that it is Aikido as well.
And they are all, Eric.....in Aikido.
Its a curious position for you to take, to say the least.

Your comment about it being pointless to push on someone who knows the secrect of AIkido?
Well again you pretty much miss the point of what pushing does and why Uehsiba was doing it. You alos miss the point that it is not at all the only things we are doing. But again, you are ever increasingly standing alone. Those who have now felt these skills...at least get it. And are changing their ways. So they can learn......the real secrets of Aikido.

I do wish to say that I enjoy the fact that you are a good debater, level headed and even humorous at times.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-24-2007 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:49 PM   #662
TomW
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I learned three classes of engineering structural connections:

1) a roller joint which is free to move laterally without friction and to pivot freely at the point of support,

2) a hinge joint which can pivot freely about the point of support but not move laterally

3) a pinned or fixed joint that is not free to move laterally or to pivot.

Trusses or spaceframes must have pinned or fixed joints.

Stable arches can have pinned joints or up to three hinges, but no rollers.

A beam can have any combination of the three. (Continuous beams can have more that two points of support.)

There is a fourth, of a sort, but plastic connections are very non-linear.
Pin joints cannot handle moment, ie. rotate freely under an applied force, what you call a hinge.

Plastic joints deform non-linearly, as do most things that have a plastic phase. Brittle joints fail without reaching a plastic phase. That happens regardless of how the load is applied, linearly or rotationally. But all of that is based on the assumption of nearly uniform material properties, and, more importantly, predictable reaction to loading. We can model the human body as an inanimate object if the man/woman acts like an inanimate object. Hell, we can map a water particles movement in a free flowing stream with the Navier-Stokes equations....and a super computer, but the water particle can't think, can't choose to do something else.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Interesting Tom.
May I ask were you able to push Rob?
Josh?

I found your response to Eric's ideas interesting. Forget the tests- the truth is that most people are unable to do many of the exercises !! The tests come later. The way to accomplish them is far less complex than Eric Describes.
Hi Dan

No, I was not able to push Rob, though when I got a chance to try, it was in a different exercise. I didn't meet any Josh.

It was a fascinating workshop. The paired practices were not so much tests to me, but interesting in terms of feed back, vis a vis solo practice, much like practicing punches vs. practicing punching something. Not particularly physical feed back, but mental feed back. Where's my mind.

My response to Erick, in engineering terms, was mainly because he was using engineering terms and I can speak that language. I thought I could explain it a little better (serves me right for thinking) but clearly, he has it all figured out.

I have a Honey-do list hanging over my head, may be more later.

Tom Wharton
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:14 PM   #663
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Baseline skillset

Murray has wonderfully summed up my feeling also -- that mixture of excitement and resentment. It turns out that many of us seem to share the same underlying defect, namely that we don't like to remain "a sucker" :-) Even if we only get better slowly (through laziness, slow recovery from long-term bad posture misalignments, etc.) there is the incredible freedom of knowing that the time put in is not wasted, has a clear goal, in terms of long-term health as well as any activities we pursue, which is explicable fairly simply (on a simple level), and progress is within our own control. There is also the satisfaction of being able to call "bullshit" and back it up if necessary :-)
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Old 02-24-2007, 08:07 PM   #664
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tom Wharton wrote: View Post
Pin joints cannot handle moment, ie. rotate freely under an applied force, what you call a hinge.
You are correct if you assume that no strains are allowed. But of course they can -- if they can resist by undergoing strain deformations, typically in shear or torsion, recoverable if sufficiently elastic, and non-recoverable if the plastic or brittle limit of the material is exceeded. Shoulders are notoriously poor at enduring such strains, particularly in torsion. Another reason not to pin the shoulder in place to resist a force.
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Tom Wharton wrote: View Post
Plastic joints deform non-linearly, as do most things that have a plastic phase. Brittle joints fail without reaching a plastic phase. That happens regardless of how the load is applied, linearly or rotationally.
We agree. However, most materials are weakest ( i.e. -- reach the plastic or brittle limit soonest) when in shear or torsion. Thus, resisted rotations, particularly spiral rotations, exploit the weakest aspects of both material and structural integrity.

As you likely know, form counts for vastly more in structural performance than material. Statically, thin shells are among the most elegant examples of this principle. Adaptive intelligence, as you rightly note, that we have available in dynamic response to alter our form to our advantage in reacting to applied force, vastly superior to the gross material strength of our structural frames, or any degree of "strengthening" we might attempt to employ.

What Dan and Mike are talking about is resolving moments to a linear oppositon to perform the "bounce." Their principle depends on the linear elasticity or strength of the deformed fascia carrying the "spring" loads they are storing to release back again. It is a principle of material elasticity (strength).

Kokyu, on the other hand is a matter of form. In form it is essentially variations on a spiral wave. In aikido it is commenced by the input force and not resisted, but converted by perpendicular or tangent components. It may then be returned on a different axis from the input, gaining a measure of surprise in the process. I do not dispute that the same fundamental form may be used in other ways by arts that do not follow the general principles of aikido.

Try placing a spiral wave into a rope or waterhose. The same motion of the body and limbs is required as for kokyu manipulation of the opponent's one-arm grab, and of many other connections with other body parts seen typically in aikido practice.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-24-2007, 09:05 PM   #665
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Murray McPherson wrote: View Post
[...So as one of the formerly oblivious who can now state unequivocally that not only can Dan do what he writes about, but can do that and more, I offer the following]
Thanks for posting. Point to be made -- I have never questioned whether Dan, or any one else, does what he says -- I question whether we are speaking on the same terms when we each describe what we are talking about. More to the point, I have wondered whether certain described forms of this training create problems, at a basic level, for the practice of aikido, and my reasoning has been given at length on those points.

Language has its limits, which is why it is critical, for useful communicaiton to occur at ranges farther than arm's length, for there to be a neutral and well-understood body of concepts and terminology to use to work these things out. Mechanics is the most broadly available, and culturally transparent form for that communication that we have.

As to "feeling" it, again, the body can easily be made to lie to us about position and acelerations. What we feel may, or may not, equate to an objective view of the actual motion. I only trust my own perceptual cues of motions because I have religiously watched my teachers and my fellow students moving to perform things that I know work, and have seen what does and doesn't work and have learned to map what I see objectively onto my own subjective bodily cues.

As to perceptible motion, video and objectivity, I trained to work out rotor tracking, which, fro all the nifty electronic gizmos we had at at our disposal, there really is no substitute for a critical eye for motion. I hardly claim to remotely be the best at that sort of thing, but almost any former helicopter maintenance check pilot will have a better eye than the average bear for mechnically significant but small variations of dynamic position.
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Murray McPherson wrote: View Post
... Hell, I learned aikido in Japan, from a tenth dan, and had plenty of high rankers showing me what was what. So that must be aikido, right? We even had plenty of aiki tourists in from Honbu and abroad, doing some variation of the same thing. Must be gospel.
One of the advantages/curses of having an empirical bent of mind is a lack of deference to authority, merely for the sake of authority, unless it is demonstrated authority. Certain authorities can be understood, emulated and the results demonstrated and repeated. I take certain concepts as important becuase of who said them or showed them to me, but only becasue they conform to my experience of what actually works and help to rationally explain why it works so well. O Sensei is chief among those. So far, Mike and Dan are not.

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Murray McPherson wrote: View Post
And the sad truth is that what I felt was so far removed from standard aikido (or judo, or karate, for that matter) that I had the not entirely pleasant sensation of feeling simultaneously excited by the possibility of it all, yet resentful and angry that these skills are not understood and/or taught as the essential building blocks of skill, from day one.
Answer a couple of question for me and then please feel free to again retire to the back benches of the forum:

Did what he showed you how to do result in linear, opposed forces either negating one another or being absorbed by and then released by your structure ?

Do you think that aikido can be applied to someone who is not attacking you or someone else?

An attack is necessarily suki for aikido. So, if he was not attacking, did he even have any suki to exploit?

Why would you push on someone who was not attacking you, and why would you necessarily assume that an opening for aikido would exist in such a situation?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-24-2007, 09:19 PM   #666
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
What Dan and Mike are talking about is resolving moments to a linear oppositon to perform the "bounce." Their principle depends on the linear elasticity or strength of the deformed fascia carrying the "spring" loads they are storing to release back again. It is a principle of material elasticity (strength).
As Tom said, the model I used was overly simplistic for the reasons already stated. It is nowhere near a close approximation of the human model and was never intended to. The idea was to convey a general principle.... that's all we're talking about.... general principles... a point which has been reiterated several times and which you either miss or choose to ignore.

Quote:
Kokyu, on the other hand is a matter of form. In form it is essentially variations on a spiral wave. In aikido it is commenced by the input force and not resisted, but converted by perpendicular or tangent components. It may then be returned on a different axis from the input, gaining a measure of surprise in the process. I do not dispute that the same fundamental form may be used in other ways by arts that do not follow the general principles of aikido.

Try placing a spiral wave into a rope or waterhose. The same motion of the body and limbs is required as for kokyu manipulation of the opponent's one-arm grab, and of many other connections with other body parts seen typically in aikido practice.
Tim Fong already mentioned this... and a spiral wave has a what???...A linear component!!! The stuff we're talking about, at a very basic level (i.e. BASELINE) is LINEAR... How do spirals and waves exist without a linear component????

Seems like we keep getting sucked into your rotational dynamics black hole... 665 posts later and we're still going in circles...

Ignatius
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Old 02-24-2007, 09:35 PM   #667
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Re: Baseline skillset

Talk about a spring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auHbz...elated&search=. The Tohei bounce.
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Old 02-24-2007, 10:22 PM   #668
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Eric
I trust it does not escape your attention that that those who felt these skills in various places now number in the dozens just here on Aikiweb.
No one is writing in agreeing with you.
No one....none.
Can you explain why it is that all these Aikido folks are feeling these skills and writng back and telling you it IS Aikido?
By now it should be obvious that I am hardly seeking affirmaton here. Even assuming these discussions involved a representative sample of the aikido mainstream.

Rational argument is not a popularity contest. You don't know if anyone has written me off-line or not or what they may say -- nor does it matter. Only a few repeat player's cheerlead your side of it -- that does not matter either.

I merely speak in supprot of a traditional view of aikido practice and its functions, as against your revolutionary viewpoint, and I use a certain view of rational mechanics in trying to transparently describe that tradition as it exists and functions, Anybody who wants to crack the college physics book can keep up with me, I am not that talented at this stuff.

I criticize tendencies in what you advocate that are problematic. Maybe it is just because your discussion of them is incomplete, in Mike's case, willfully so, maybe not. Either way, the points I have raised have not been answered.
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Or why some have writtne here that it is the foundation of their arts as well?
Martial arts differ in both principle and application. Is there any other art, internal or otherwise, founded on the "principle of absolute non-resistance" 徹底した無抵抗主義 ? Hapkido, very likely, as the inheritor of O Sensei's Manchurian legacy. Not in judo While it uses non-resistance, its reliance on the principle is not complete or absolute. Jigoro Kano was quite explicit that nonresistance was only one principle in his thought on maximum efficiency. Go and Ju held equal place in his conception of that art. Taiji I do not know enough to speak to. My limited impression is that it is in line, on this philosophical point at least, with Kano's position.
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I find it odd that you can read the various quotes that have been entered here over these last few years and you not only dismiss Rob, Mike and Me but you have dismissed all your fellow Aikido practitioners and teachers -who all having finally felt these skills- to a man dissagree with you as well.
If I were to dismiss you I would quit posting. I have not determined that you and I necessarily disagree at a root level except perhaps on training methodology. The method you have described to do it is problematic, but as MIke says -- that is "just training." That does not releive my concerns about training in that wya, but distinguish the actuality of what you accomplish from the method of training you have described to accomplish it and maybe my objections are misplaced. But neither you nor Mike have been able yet to formulate an explanation to address it.

O Sensei, for all the valiant effort at the semantic argument around his plain words, was unequivocal, and emphatic, about non-resistance being fundamental to aikido. His principle matches my functional experience, and my mechnical view of what he demonstrated on film that I can see.

Mike admits there is resistance involved in what he does. Resistance is resistance. You do what you train to do. What you describe seem roughly consistent with what he says he does, and so it is in the same category until it proves otherwise in my book.
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Your comment about it being pointless to push on someone who knows the secrect of AIkido?
Well again you pretty much miss the point of what pushing does and why Ueshiba was doing it. You alos miss the point that it is not at all the only things we are doing.
Unfortunately, the "other things" have not been forthcoming. The admitted air of secrecy is particularly ill-suited to alter my unwillingness to change a well-supported view of the facts that confirms in empirical terms 9 objectively and subjectively) the validity and power of the tradition in training, from my personal experience, in at least ASU, Federation and the Iwama lineages, and by way of much more limited experience, but some critical observations, very likely within the Yoshinkan lineage as well.

I do not doubt the good faith of some people who are dissatisfied with their training, but what evidence is there that their experience is representative, much less the indictment of aikido generally that is proposed?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-24-2007, 11:09 PM   #669
Upyu
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I merely speak in supprot of a traditional view of aikido practice and its functions, as against your revolutionary viewpoint
Its hardly revolutionary.
Maybe you should rename that... your understanding of what "traditional" aikido practice is.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Martial arts differ in both principle and application.
Not really.
More like the core principles of the highest levels are all the same, but the application/sophistication etc may differ.
My guess is that you just haven't touched hands with enough "good" people outside of your style yet Erick

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Is there any other art, internal or otherwise, founded on the "principle of absolute non-resistance" 徹底した無抵抗主義 ?
I suggest you work up to decent fluency in Japanese before you arguing the language front Erick...

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

Go and Ju held equal place in his conception of that art.
As did Ueshiba's art. Go and Ju are literally inseperable Erick. And I dont mean pushing/pulling

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

O Sensei, for all the valiant effort at the semantic argument around his plain words, was unequivocal, and emphatic, about non-resistance being fundamental to aikido.
Actually, no he wasnt.
He was pretty round about in explaining the stuff, even by Japanese standards.
Check out Sagawa's book on "Clear Power" if you want less ornery BS.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

Unfortunately, the "other things" have not been forthcoming. The admitted air of secrecy is particularly ill-suited to alter my unwillingness to change a well-supported view of the facts
Just get to some teacher that can show you these things Erick. Theres no secrecy. The only secret seems to be in finding a way to get you off your butt and find someone that can show these things to you. People within the Ki Society have been named as well (if going outside of Aikido gives you the jitters)
so really the rest is up to you.

I recently did a couple of mini-seminars (god that sounds pretentious.... :-p ), one in Seattle, and one in Virginia with Mike to various people from different backgrounds, many of them Aiki-arts, and I think we got... <counting>... "zero" negative feedback so far as to whether or not this stuff is useful for Aikido and other arts.
Mike and I come from completely different backgrounds. This is the first time we've met. But quel suprise, it turns out we be doin the <gasP> same thing for the most part.

We have two legs, two arms, and a head man.
Only so many ways you can use the human body efficiently
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Old 02-24-2007, 11:30 PM   #670
M. McPherson
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Certain authorities can be understood, emulated and the results demonstrated and repeated. I take certain concepts as important becuase of who said them or showed them to me, but only becasue they conform to my experience of what actually works and help to rationally explain why it works so well. O Sensei is chief among those. So far, Mike and Dan are not.
The point is moot, unless you've not only worked with the authorities you emulate, but also with Mike or Dan (or anyone else who can do these things). That certain concepts are important to you doesn't really matter to me one way or the other. I posted because you seem to be on a quest for proof of concept, and the only way that's going to happen (or not) is if you have first hand experience of the alternatives being offered. For some inexplicable reason, you seem resistant to that.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Answer a couple of question for me and then please feel free to again retire to the back benches of the forum:
Well, gosh, Mr. Mead, thanks for deigning my exit. Howzabout I retire to actual training? And you may feel free to remain at your keyboard.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Did what he showed you how to do result in linear, opposed forces either negating one another or being absorbed by and then released by your structure ?
What Dan was doing was not linear in any sense of the word. Was the force that I was directing (linear and otherwise) absorbed and then re-directed, and/or released by my structure? You bet.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Do you think that aikido can be applied to someone who is not attacking you or someone else?
Sure. It seems to happen all the time in aikido dojo. Or are you trying to tell me that slow motion haymakers and grabbing onto someone's wrist for dear life whilst they dervish about is an actual attack? (c.f. next answer)

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
An attack is necessarily suki for aikido. So, if he was not attacking, did he even have any suki to exploit?
Really? It is? Because I have yet to see an actual attack in any aikido I've ever witnessed. I mean, besides the wonder that is tachidori waza. Sure, my scope of experience is probably limited (you know, not much to do there in the back benches), but apart from those aikido folk who engage in full resistance training outside of aikido dojo, or take part in active sparring - which I have yet to see in any thing save for the format that Tomiki espoused - I have never seen anything that even closely resembles the active resistance that's commonly demonstrated in judo, MMA, some karate, and the like. Are you telling me you engage in fully commited attacks every time you work out with a partner? If not, by your reasoning, would that then be aikido?

I was also not "attacking" Dan. I'm curious, not stupid. Dan was demonstrating principles of movement, not fighting.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Why would you push on someone who was not attacking you, and why would you necessarily assume that an opening for aikido would exist in such a situation?
Well, possibly because you were engaging in a training drill. Or maybe you were trying to help squeeze them onto a crowded subway car. I'm not sure. As to the second part of your question, I wouldn't.

Mr. Mead, by your leave...

Last edited by M. McPherson : 02-24-2007 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:02 AM   #671
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
By now it should be obvious that I am hardly seeking affirmaton here.
Then self-aggrandizement perhaps??? I heard lawyers love hearing the sound of their own voice... One of the advantages/curses of being a lawyer is the ability to equivocate just about anything to suit your argument.

But this has gone well beyond arguing the point rationally. It's quite obvious that no one seems to be affirming the philosophical and theoretical basis of your rationale, much less your credibility.

Quote:
I merely speak in supprot of a traditional view of aikido practice and its functions, as against your revolutionary viewpoint, and I use a certain view of rational mechanics in trying to transparently describe that tradition as it exists and functions
Whose "traditional view"??? This [what we're talking about] is hardly revolutionary stuff... not widely known perhaps, but hardly revolutionary... what's "revolutionary" is applied rotational dynamics...

Quote:
I criticize tendencies in what you advocate that are problematic.... The method you have described to do it is problematic, but as MIke says -- that is "just training." That does not releive my concerns about training in that wya, but distinguish the actuality of what you accomplish from the method of training you have described to accomplish it and maybe my objections are misplaced. But neither you nor Mike have been able yet to formulate an explanation to address it.
It is only problematic in that you inevitably find yourself (and have so for some pages now) in a position where you have to abandon your rotational dynamics model and your perceived notions of "resistance", because it simply does not fit into it.

But, God love them lawyers, they'll never admit wrong nor defeat...

Last edited by eyrie : 02-25-2007 at 12:09 AM.

Ignatius
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:39 AM   #672
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
By now it should be obvious that I am hardly seeking affirmaton here.
Then you will not be disappointed in your search.
Quote:
Mike admits there is resistance involved in what he does. Resistance is resistance.
Once again, you hold onto your personal interpretation of "resistance", despite numerous comments by actual Japanese speakers, as if it is your security-blanket of which you must not let go. At best, your only argument about "resistance" seems to depend only on your interpretation of a passing phrase in an interview relating to waza. It's not that no one has presented you with reasonable debate... you simply ignore debate and cling desperately to a forlorn and untenable position. If you really knew how to do these things, you would have quit some time ago, back when you were only someone interjecting debate.
Quote:
You do what you train to do.
Another constant old saw that is not applicable as you use it, but which you cling desperately to. You're reduced to tilting at windmills, Don.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 02-25-2007 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:44 AM   #673
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I recently did a couple of mini-seminars (god that sounds pretentious.... :-p ), one in Seattle, and one in Virginia with Mike to various people from different backgrounds, many of them Aiki-arts, and I think we got... <counting>... "zero" negative feedback so far as to whether or not this stuff is useful for Aikido and other arts.
Mike and I come from completely different backgrounds. This is the first time we've met. But quel suprise, it turns out we be doin the <gasP> same thing for the most part.
Yeah... it was a lot of fun. If any one thing stood out to me.. again.. it is the necessity that people get out, in a friendly way, and go check out and discuss what other people are saying and doing. I'm still in travelling mode, as is Rob, but I'll try to formulate my impressions, etc., when I get back home Monday or Tuesday.

Met a number of interesting people on the trip and it was a good thing to meet these people and see what they're doing, exchange views, etc.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:27 AM   #674
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Re: Baseline skillset

Eric Writes
Hapkido, very likely, as the inheritor of O Sensei's Manchurian legacy.
Man o man. The more things change the more they stay the same. Before we're done I think we'll have good ol "O sensei" creating everything "Budo."
You want "real" traditional approaches to your art Eric?
Listen up. Ueshiba-ha Daito ryu (which is a far more "traditional" version of how things would be viewed) had nothing to do with Hapkido.
Even Hapkido denies that. They- being smart in marketing- claim a history directly to....? Takeda Sokaku's Daito ryu. Which, in itself, remains tenuous at best. It stems from a claim that Choi, Yong Sul, was training with Takeda under an assumed Japanese name as his servant. Its perfectly hilarious. Almost as funny as Ueshiba's "inventing" Aikido out of a whole bunch of disparate arts.

Ueshiba was busy at the time teaching Daito ryu.

The other thing I wanted to address was about this absolute non-resistence. You still don't get it Eric.
I'll give it to you on two levels
1. Were you to push on me- the more I get out of the way and "I" don't get involved in resisting ...you. the more you feel the ground. I become -for want of a better term- invisible to the current or flow.

Since you admiteddly can't do these things, and you were not "best buds" with Ueshiba- then I say THAT is what he meant by non resistance. Not your version of whirlin and dancin. Giving way and turning like that is the dumbest, lowest level expression of anything beffiting a trained Budo man.

2. On another level with this training in place (and active in our body) in movement we are ever changing and moving where we will. Simply because most folks cannot stop the structure. We feel no resistence.

It isn't mystical, and if you get it outside in actual MMA with real people who can kick your ass.... it isn't as "magical" either. Its just a great edge.

Again, I argue on two fronts. These skills are the best base line skills in the world. But in the end, if you can't fight.....well....you just can't fight.
Ueshiba, were he alive today, would simply not be quite the same "legend."

Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-25-2007 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 08:07 AM   #675
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Re: Baseline skillset

Did you notice how relaxed Tohei, Sensei seemed in his tape.....
Mary
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