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Old 02-20-2007, 10:24 PM   #51
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
To date, nothing charged in the book by the SBV's has been disproved...
Mike, this is what the website (wich data you have agreed is correct) has to say:

One of the accusers says he was on another boat "a few yards" away during the incident which won Kerry the Bronze Star, but the former Army lieutenant whom Kerry plucked from the water that day backs Kerry's account...
...And on Aug. 19, Navy records came to light also contradicting the accusers. One of the veterans who says Kerry wasn't under fire was himself awarded a Bronze Star for aiding others "in the face of enemy fire" during the same incident.


The official citations show Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star "for simply pursuing and dispatching" the Viet Cong. In fact, the killing is not even mentioned in two of the three versions of the official citation (see "supporting documents" at right.) The citations - based on what Elliott wrote up at the time - dwell mostly on Kerry's decision to attack rather than flee from two ambushes, including one in which he led a landing party.

The longest of the citations, signed by Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, describes Kerry as killing a fleeing Viet Cong with a loaded rocket launcher. It says that as Kerry beached his boat to attack his second set of ambushers, "an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hooch, and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber."...

Later, 800 yards away, Kerry's boat encountered a second ambush and a B-40 rocket exploded "close aboard" Kerry's boat. "With utter disregard for his own safety, and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet away from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy." In these citations there is no mention of enemy casualties at all. Kerry was cited for "extraordinary daring and personal courage . . . in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire."

Elliott [one of the SBV's who signed statements against Kerry] had previously defended Kerry on that score when his record was questioned during his 1996 Senate campaign. At that time Elliott came to Boston and said Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star. And as recently as June, 2003, Elliott called Kerry's Silver Star "well deserved" and his action "courageous" for beaching his boat in the face of an ambush: Elliott (Boston Globe, June 2003): I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that. . . . (It) was pretty courageous to turn into an ambush

On Aug. 22 an officer who was present supported Kerry's version, breaking a 35-year silence. William B. Rood commanded another Swift Boat during the same operation and was awarded the Bronze Star himself for his role in attacking the Viet Cong ambushers. He said Kerry and he went ashore at the same time after being attacked by several Viet Cong onshore.

The most serious allegation in the ad is that Kerry received both the Bronze Star, his second-highest decoration, and his third purple heart, which allowed him to be sent home early, under false pretenses. But that account is flatly contradicted by Jim Rassmann, the former Army Lieutenant whom Kerry rescued that day.

Van O'Dell, a former Navy enlisted man who says he was the gunner on another Swift Boat, states in his affidavit that he was "a few yards away" from Kerry's boat on March 13, 1969 when Kerry pulled Rassman from the water. According to the official medal citations, Kerry's boat was under enemy fire at the time, and Kerry had been wounded when an enemy mine exploded near his own boat. O'Dell insists "there was no fire" at the time, adding: "I did not hear any shots, nor did any hostile fire hit any boats" other than his own, PCF-3.

...Navy records describe Thurlow himself as dodging enemy bullets during the same incident, for which Thurlow also was awarded the Bronze Star.

...
None of those in the attack ad by the Swift Boat group actually served on Kerry's boat. And their statements are contrary to the accounts of Kerry and those who served under him.
...
On Aug. 22 the Washington Post quoted a new eyewitness in support of Kerry's version. The Post said it had independently contacted Wayne D. Langhofer, who manned a machine gun aboard PCF-43, the boat directly behind Kerry's, and that Langhofer said he distinctly remembered the "clack, clack, clack" of enemy AK-47 assault rifles.

Two who appear in the ad say Kerry didn't deserve his first purple heart. Louis Letson, a medical officer and Lieutenant Commander, says in the ad that he knows Kerry is lying about his first purple heart because "I treated him for that." However, medical records provided by the Kerry campaign to FactCheck.org do not list Letson as the "person administering treatment" for Kerry's injury on December 3, 1968 . The person who signed this sick call report is J.C. Carreon, who is listed as treating Kerry for shrapnel to the left arm.

Mike, we have official Navy records and plenty of eye-witnesses which agree with Kerry's version. That's not bad 'proof' for something that happened 35 years ago. On the SBV side, we have undoccumented accusations by major Republican donors.
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Old 02-20-2007, 10:28 PM   #52
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

To 'swift boat' someone is becoming a verb: it means to make baseless accusations about someone's distant past and throw a huge publicity campaign for your accusations.
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Old 02-20-2007, 10:33 PM   #53
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Mike, this is what the website (wich data you have agreed is correct) has to say:
No, Lorien, I didn't agree it was correct. I said the stuff was outdated and wrong. For instance, the "official records" are apparently the bogus after-action reports which Kerry used to get himself medals. Thurlow was dumbfounded to have someone show him he also got a Bronze Star for the same bogus report (Kerry apparently tried to spread it around to bolster his own story). Most of Kerry's claims are about as realistic as his Christmas in Cambodia that he has now backed off of so he can "check the records". He's a BS artist. One of two that the discerning people of Massachusetts continue to re-elect.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-20-2007, 10:34 PM   #54
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
To 'swift boat' someone is becoming a verb: it means to make baseless accusations about someone's distant past and throw a huge publicity campaign for your accusations.
It's cool, but like I said, nothing the SBV's claimed has been proven untrue. The liberal press first tried not to cover the story... then they began to attack the SBV's. That's patriotism of liberals for you. It's the Clinton tactic of smearing anyone who has the goods on you.

Mike
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Old 02-20-2007, 11:46 PM   #55
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
He was conceding I was right, but he had to toss a slam into it.
He was putting words into my mouth, and pretending that's he's right.

No, Mike...as you well know: I was doing no such thing. Thanks for playing, tho.

Help! help! The thread's been hijacked!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Gee.... it's funny, but these problems in Arab culture seem to be worldwide, so it's not just the Arabs living near Israel. It's their culture.
When you view the world through a one-dimensional prism...is it any wonder that you only see what you want to see?

Your argument reminds me of the old saw about low IQ's in a population being related to poverty. The problem with that one-sided statement is that it carefully avoids saying the obverse: people with low IQ's tend to wind up in poverty, in a competitive world. [/quote]

Oh please! Three words for you...

GEORGE W. BUSH.

The man has, AT BEST, a low average IQ. He's hardly lining up at the soup kitchen.

Quote:
And the reason no one wants to say that is because it's "racist"....
Um...because it "is...?"

Quote:
so they don't say it and they don't consider that it might be true (no matter how much we want to pretend everyone is equal if you just throw enough money at them, everyone is not equal and, anthropologically, that difference will show up across various animal populations).
No, Mike. It just ain't so.

There are a host of other factors contributing to IMR in Arab countries. The logical end of your argument mirrors those of eugenicists.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, that was the topic under discussion, Mark.
Actually, it isn't. The topic is about media coverage, NOT IMD.

Quote:
Do you really find it "lamentable" that an anti-West, anti-Semitic organization like the UN finds a reason to point the finger at the two strongest western powers?
"anti-West, anti-Semitic?"

How do you complete your own sentences, without laughing at your own nonsense, that you choose to spew here? Please.

Quote:
You realize that fully one-fourth of all resolutions passed by the UN are anti-Israel.... do you find that "lamentable"?
Um...perhaps, because they're consistently breaking international law...?

No, that's right...it's impossible. AFAMC (as far as Mike's Concerned)--ICDNW (Israel can do no wrong)

Quote:
When
Mike (as, he yet again, carefully chooses to make his claims, sans sources)

Quote:
looks at the actuall breakdown of "below the poverty line" in the US, it's stunning to see that 47% of them own their own homes, have air-conditioning, and many other startling factors.
When Mike makes up his own figures, the world actually IS how he claims it to be.

Quote:
Start reading anti-western reports critically, Mark. Usually they are compiled and interpretted by people like Neil Mick.

Regards,

Mike
Do you think this guy chants my name at night, in satanic curses, too?? I mean...talk about OBSESSION...
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Old 02-20-2007, 11:57 PM   #56
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It's cool, but like I said, nothing the SBV's claimed has been proven untrue. The liberal press first tried not to cover the story... then they began to attack the SBV's. That's patriotism of liberals for you. It's the Clinton tactic of smearing anyone who has the goods on you.

Mike
Oh please. Again, what nonsense.

It is patently obvious that the SBV's were a hit squad with direct ties to the Bush election-effort. Funny, how once 2004 passed, the SBV's have sort of lost their steam. They don't seem so interested in hounding Kerry anymore. Perhaps, because they've served their purpose.

Admit it, Mike...you'll feel better: you just cannot admit when you're wrong. Anyone with an ounce of perspective can see that the SBV's were a Rov'ian setup.

What amazes me, is that you ascribe these near genius-level subtleties of deception and manipulation from the MSM, liberals, and (for all I know) PETA, but you have absolutely no trouble accepting as truth the words of a proven liar, like Cheney. No...Libby was clearly "set up" by the media (even tho, of course, 8 separate witnesses say otherwise)...the prospect of him spilling Plame's identity as a Cheney-ordered payback, and then lying to a grand jury about it, is just not possible in Mike's books.

No...it was all the MSM and the eevel Liberals working together.
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:21 AM   #57
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Me, wrt the age of the article:
"I don't think the actual data cited has changed since then."
Mike, agreeing:
"The data has not changed a bit..."
So, yes, Mike, you did agree on the data.
and the 'bogus official records' include recommendations for awards which were written by a man who later joined the SBVs when Kerry ran vs. Bush.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claims of the SBVs are not backed by any evidence other than their own hollow words; the claims of Kerry, being the null hypothesis backed by eyewitness accounts and documentation, must be allowed to stand in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary.
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:18 AM   #58
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Oh please! Three words for you...

GEORGE W. BUSH.

The man has, AT BEST, a low average IQ. He's hardly lining up at the soup kitchen.
Ah.... tell me again about how you deplore "personal attacks", Neil. This is just so, well, "Aikido" of you.
Quote:
There are a host of other factors contributing to IMR in Arab countries. The logical end of your argument mirrors those of eugenicists.
Nature is a eugenicist, Neil. Natural selection and all that.

Ta Taa for a few days, Neil. I'll be out of town, so you'll just have to play with yourself.

Cheers.

Mike
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Old 02-21-2007, 08:41 AM   #59
Hogan
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
...

GEORGE W. BUSH.

The man has, AT BEST, a low average IQ. He's hardly lining up at the soup kitchen....
Yet he STILL got a higher GPA than Kerry in college...

Hmmmm....
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:20 AM   #60
Taliesin
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Interesting Post

Mike has clearly forgotten to take his medication. (again!)

We must believe SBV becasue they slagged of Kerry (it helped GWB therefore neither evidence nor common sense are needed)

However it was wrong to dispute the GBW avoided serving in Viet Nam - He wanted to fight - he just had to serve in the Air National Guard (and let his pilots license expire) instead

Conclusion the only impartial press is one that unquestioningly supports GWB

BTW - Bush's lack of intellegence or otherwise is not his problem - it's his complete lack of integrity and his fundamental dishonesty

BTW Mike - I know you think it's unfair and 'anti-American to call a proven liar dishonest when it's GWB but I'll just have to live with my decisons (as so many are unable to say the same about GWB's)
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Old 02-21-2007, 11:23 AM   #61
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ah.... tell me again about how you deplore "personal attacks", Neil. This is just so, well, "Aikido" of you.
OK, I deplore personal attacks (besides, I'm wondering why a basic objective statement, can be construed as an attack...Bush IS rated as a low average IQ. Sorry, but an objective statement of fact, doth not personal attack, make).

And unless your name's been changed to GW, Mike: this is hardly a personal attack, in any case. Of course, you know this, very well.

Quote:
Nature is a eugenicist, Neil. Natural selection and all that.
Really, Mike: go back to school. Clearly, you lack understanding of the basics of natural selection, and how "social darwinists" misuse science to justify their racism.

Perhaps if you did, you wouldn't be so quick to publish such racist posts, yourself.

Perhaps...perhaps not.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-21-2007 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 02-21-2007, 11:25 AM   #62
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Yet he STILL got a higher GPA than Kerry in college...

Hmmmm....
Proving my point, exactly. Thanks.

IQ is not an indicator of poverty.
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Old 02-21-2007, 03:00 PM   #63
Hogan
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
...

IQ is not an indicator of poverty.
That is certainly true - why, I am a suuuper genius, yet I was in poverty much of my childhood.
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Old 02-21-2007, 03:02 PM   #64
Hogan
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
...Bush IS rated as a low average IQ....
By the way, where did you see / read this?
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Old 02-21-2007, 06:35 PM   #65
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
By the way, where did you see / read this?
From an unimpeachable (ahem!) source!

http://web.archive.org/web/200206302...ex20010902.htm
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Old 02-22-2007, 07:52 AM   #66
Hogan
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
From an unimpeachable (ahem!) source!

http://web.archive.org/web/200206302...ex20010902.htm
Ahhhh, thought so - cartoon based on an urban legend. Niiiiice!

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bliq-bush.htm

OR

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm

I prefer to confirm my news through the Bloom County Picayune...
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Old 02-22-2007, 10:50 AM   #67
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Ahhhh, thought so - cartoon based on an urban legend. Niiiiice!

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm
Yeah, it WAS an urban legend...my mistake. I thought that there really was a scientifiv study.

OTOH, the idea that IQ is a determining factor in poverty (or vice versa) has no basis in scientific research.

And W isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, so there you are.

Now that we've thoroughly mined THAT topic:can we pls return to the thread topic?
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Old 02-24-2007, 04:41 PM   #68
Neil Mick
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Post Yes, this IS on-topic!

OK, now on to the subject of international...or perhaps national...ignorance.

Much has been made, in the past, of my signature. You know...the Iraqi dead count? People have, at times, accused me of knowingly printing false figures (no doubt, to "embolden" the enemy); that the figures "really don't matter;" or even that I am posting these figures as some form of continual protest against the invasion (this, from an Iraqi expatriate).

Well, of course they're all wrong. I post and occasionally update these numbers as a reminder. A benchmark.

In point of fact, no one knows, for sure, how many Iraqi's have died as a direct result of the invasion. It could be 50,000; or it could be 650,000, or higher.

But, Americans are woefully uninformed, about the cost of Iraqi lives in this war. Small wonder. Look at the shoddy reporting the MSM gave, in 2005:

Counting the Iraqi Dead

Quote:
On the weekend of the two-year anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, media outlets took stock of the war's death toll. But the national newscasts undercounted the most dramatic loss of life: the deaths of Iraqi civilians.

On the March 18 CBS Evening News, reporter Byron Pitts gave these figures: "Today, U.S. deaths number more than 1,500. There are no exact figures for Iraqi fatalities, but estimates are for every American killed, 11 Iraqis died." In other words, more than 16,500 Iraqi deaths.

NBC's Brian Williams (3/18/05) offered a slightly higher estimate: "So far, 1,513 American military personnel have been killed, 11,344 injured, and many of those are amputees. Estimates of the Iraqi death toll are hard to come by officially, but the civilian toll is thought to range from 17,000 to nearly 20,000 dead and beyond." ABC's World News Tonight did not appear to offer a similar count, but earlier this month (3/3/05) anchor Peter Jennings reported: "There are no official numbers of Iraqi civilian casualties, but Iraqi Body Count, an independent web-site that compiles media reports of the deaths there, says as many as 18,000 Iraqis may have been killed."

With his "and beyond" comment, NBC's Williams seemed to be referring to an estimate of Iraqi civilian casualties that none of the networks saw fit to mention: According to a study published in the respected British medical journal The Lancet (10/29/04), about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war. The majority of deaths were due to violence, primarily as a result of U.S.-led military action. One of the researchers on the project said that the estimate is likely a conservative one (New York Times, 10/29/04). It's certainly a more scientific estimate than the Iraq Body Count figure cited by ABC, which is, as that project's website notes, a "compilation of civilian deaths that have been reported by recognized sources.... It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media."
You can see the result.

Americans unaware of Iraqi death toll
Poll shows knowledge of U.S. dead, but huge underestimation of Iraqis

Quote:
WASHINGTON - One person can tell you precisely how many Americans have been killed in Iraq. Another pays close attention to the names and hometowns of those who die each week. A third mourns for the families of fallen U.S. troops, but also figures it was their choice to enlist.

Americans are keenly aware of how many U.S. forces have lost their lives in Iraq, according to a new AP-Ipsos poll. But they woefully underestimate the number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed.

When the poll was conducted earlier this month, a little more than 3,100 U.S. troops had been killed. The midpoint estimate among those polled was right on target, at about 3,000.

Far from a vague statistic, the death toll is painfully real for many Americans. Seventeen percent in the poll know someone who has been killed or wounded in Iraq. And among adults under 35, those closest to the ages of those deployed, 27 percent know someone who has been killed or wounded.

For Daniel Herman, a lawyer in New Castle, Pa., a co-worker's nephew is the human face of the dead.

"This is a fairly rural area," he said. "When somebody dies, ... you hear about it. It makes it very concrete to you."

Iraqi toll lowballed by tens of thousands
The number of Iraqis killed, however, is much harder to pin down, and that uncertainty is perhaps reflected in Americans' tendency to lowball the Iraqi death toll by tens of thousands.

Iraqi civilian deaths are estimated at more than 54,000 and could be much higher; some unofficial estimates range into the hundreds of thousands. The U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq reports more than 34,000 deaths in 2006 alone.

Among those polled for the AP survey, however, the median estimate of Iraqi deaths was 9,890. The median is the point at which half the estimates were higher and half lower.
The MSM hide the worst aspects of the war. And so, American's don't care; don't know...and sometimes, don't want to know.
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Old 02-24-2007, 09:26 PM   #69
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

The BBC generally plays after the national news on our local pbs station; it's really interesting to see a view of america from the outside, and of the rest of the world from somewhere else.

I'm always green with envy whenever Blair gives a news conference - even when he's clearly prevaricating, he's such a contrast with our own DL in speaking ability that I'm ashamed all over again.
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:17 AM   #70
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
BTW Mike - I know you think it's unfair and 'anti-American to call a proven liar dishonest when it's GWB but I'll just have to live with my decisons (as so many are unable to say the same about GWB's)
And Bush actually *lied* where? The last person to make the claim and *opinion* was David Orange.... yet he could not source any lie. So let's see with you... where did Bush deliberately lie to people? And if it's only your opinion, please state that rather than make a dishonest (lie) assertion.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:21 AM   #71
Mike Sigman
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Re: Yes, this IS on-topic!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Well, of course they're all wrong. I post and occasionally update these numbers as a reminder. A benchmark.
Really? You post a non-caveated *fact* as a truthful assertion and then claim it's only a "reminder"? Since you are so loose with your semantics, please allow me to simply call it "dishonest". At least I am accurate.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:24 AM   #72
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
I'm always green with envy whenever Blair gives a news conference - even when he's clearly prevaricating, he's such a contrast with our own DL in speaking ability that I'm ashamed all over again.
Clinton was a smoothe speaker as well. You like smoothe talkers, then, in the leadershop roles? And you're "ashamed" if someone is not glib and schmoozy? It's an interesting perspective about what Americans vote for... not the best guy, but the guy who can sell himself best to the superficial masses.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:29 AM   #73
DH
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

BTW - Bush's lack of intellegence or otherwise is not his problem - it's his complete lack of integrity and his fundamental dishonesty.......

Incredible. This and others calling him an outright liar.
And just where is that?
Even with the war he was actually saying things that were supported by current research- Say the WMD issue- which was then being reported and agreed to by several sources and more than a few other countries military.
The fact they were not found still doesn't make -all of those sources liars anymore then it makes Bush a liar. And we did have video of weeks of truck convoys going to Siria.
Wrong intelligence by several countries makes our President a liar.
I am not happy with many things he's done and I voted for him. But you guys are off the charts. I stopped reading because this level of discourse is the worst type of tripe found on the internet.


As far as us not agreeing with "the world." May we forever run in oppostion to the United Nations. Nothing could make me happier. We have led "the world" on many occasions, and still do.
Self-hatred is always popular, usually among the young, and is always rather sad. And no I don't think its unpatriotic- it is part of the process. But I see so many going way overboard.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-25-2007 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:48 PM   #74
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So let's see with you... where did Bush deliberately lie to people? And if it's only your opinion, please state that rather than make a dishonest (lie) assertion.

Mike Sigman
If I had to annotate every single time Bush could be documented as lying: I'd be here for hours, taking up several posts. Besides, I could post 3 verifiable sources all quoting Bush as saying, "I lied (with a short affidavit of Bush agreeing that he did)," and you still wouldn't believe it.

You never admit you're wrong, after all...why start something new, now?

So, I'm only going to throw out a few of the top ones in the lying hit-parade. Please, if you really wish to re-re-re-hash this old saw: how about pursuing it in another thread, tho...more ontopic?

I could cite the misstatements that Bush gave over Kerry's record, during the debates, and others. I could cite the lies Bush told about the fake uranium from Niger (which he put into his SoTU, against the wishes of some of his advisors).

No doubt you'll try to insert some Clinton'esque definition of what a "lie" really "is..."

Quote:
Examining Bush's statements on Iraq and on tax cuts, Rosenbaum "found little that could lead to a conclusion that the president actually lied." Instead, he suggested that Bush was guilty of "selective emphasis"; any answer on whether he "stepped across the line" into unacceptable manipulation "can probably be answered conclusively only by historians when all the evidence and consequences are known."

Rosenbaum's explanation for clearing Bush on lying about tax cuts was instructive. Bush said in his State of the Union address that "this tax relief is for everyone who pays income taxes." Rosenbaum conceded that this wasn't true; in fact, more than 8 million people who pay income taxes will get no cut. Why isn't that a lie? "There are more than 100 million income tax payers in the country," explained Rosenbaum. "So well over 90 percent will get some tax cut. If he had said 'almost all,' it would have been accurate." That's his complete line of reasoning on the subject.
I could talk about the report IAEA report that Bush and Blair swore, around Sept '02, that stated that Iraq was 6 months away from making a nuclear bomb...a report which did not exist, and was denied by the IAEA.

Spinning nonexistant projections

Quote:
Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair talked to reporters before opening about three hours of talks at Camp David, Bush's presidential retreat in Maryland.

Blair cited a newly released satellite photo of Iraq identifying new construction at several sites linked in the past to Baghdad's development of nuclear weapons. And both leaders mentioned a 1998 report by the U.N.-affiliated International Atomic Energy Agency, or IAEA, that said Saddam could be six months away from developing nuclear weapons.

Contrary to Bush's claim, however, the 1998 IAEA report did not say that Iraq was six months away from developing nuclear capability, NBC News' Robert Windrem reported Saturday.

Instead, Windrem reported, the Vienna, Austria-based agency said in 1998 that Iraq had been six to 24 months away from such capability before the 1991 Persian Gulf War and the U.N.-monitored weapons inspections that followed.

A senior White House official acknowledged Saturday night that the 1998 report did not say what Bush claimed. "What happened was, we formed our own conclusions based on the report," the official told NBC News' Norah O'Donnell.
More squiggling of the definition of "is:" no, it's not "lying..." it's "forming our own conclusions."

Oh, brother!

I could talk about the time Bush lied about the "kicking out" of UN inspectors...a lie he continues to spout, when the mood hits:

Quote:
During his recent Africa trip, he rewrote the history of the prewar conflict with Iraq over weapons inspections, telling reporters on July 14, "We gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in." Describing this remarkable statement, Milbank (along with Dana Priest) could only bring himself to write that Bush's assertion "appeared to contradict the events leading up to war this spring."
"Appeared to contradict the events..." From the place I was raised, we called that a polite way of saying "he lied." The inspectors weren't kicked out: they left, when they found out about the imminent bombing campaign.

Quote:
Bush's record is full of similar untrue statements:
There are lies of omission...

Quote:
His claim that Enron's Ken Lay supported Bush's opponent in his 1994 gubernatorial race, when Lay actually contributed three times as much to Bush (ABC World News Tonight, 1/10/02); his insistence that the White House was not responsible for the "Mission Accomplished" banner on the U.S.S. Lincoln (New York Times, 10/29/03); his statement that in 2002 the economy "was pulling out of a recession that began before I took office" (when it actually started in March 2001-- Slate, 12/30/02);
as well as lies of commission:

Quote:
his assertion in a 2000 debate that in his tax cut plan, "by far the vast majority of the help goes to the people at the bottom end of the economic ladder," when the bottom 50 percent really got roughly 10 percent of the benefits (Extra!, 1-2/01); his boast that "I've been to war" (Associated Press, 1/27/02)-- to list just a few.
I could also mention the 233X he mentioned Iraq, 911 and wmd's in the same breath: giving the impression that Iraq was involved in 911 (of course, you'll deny that this was a lie, even tho he had ample proof to the contrary and most American's who support the war still believe that Iraq was responsible for 911...but Bush had nothing to do with that assumption, right?)

White House Says it Has Evidence of Iraq-Al Qaeda Ties

In September '02, we had...

Quote:
"In particular some high ranking detainees, have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development. So, yes, there are contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda," said National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.
...while just 4 months later, the story changes.

Quote:
[Adam Boulton, Sky News (London):] One question for you both. Do you believe that there is a link between Saddam Hussein, a direct link, and the men who attacked on September the 11th?

THE PRESIDENT: I can't make that claim.

THE PRIME MINISTER: That answers your question.
Bush even lies about his intentions.

Quote:
George W. Bush[B wrote:
]“We are doing everything we can to avoid war in Iraq.[/b] But if Saddam Hussein does not disarm peacefully, he will be disarmed by force.”

- George W. Bush,
Mar. 8, 2003 Radio Address

“I think that that presumes there's some kind of imminent war plan. As I said, I have no timetable.”

- George W. Bush,
Aug. 10, 2002 while golfing
Quote:
Downing Street Memo wrote:
"Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD.”
“No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections
Quote:
Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD.”
“No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections
You can even plot the course of his lying, over time, to suit his political needs:

Quote:
PHASE I - IRAQ HAS NOT ACQUIRED WMD
PHASE II - THERE IS NO DOUBT IRAQ HAS ACQUIRED WMD
PHASE III - WE'VE GOT DETAILED AND SPECIFIC INFORMATION ABOUT IRAQ'S WMD
PHASE IV - IRAQ IS AN IMMINENT THREAT TO ATTACK THE WORLD WITH WMD
PHASE V - WE WILL SOON REVEAL THE WMD
PHASE VI - WE WERE NEVER REALLY SURE WHERE THEY WERE, BUT WE HOPE SOON TO LOCATE WMD
PHASE VII - WE'VE FOUND WMD
PHASE VIII - WE CAN'T BE BLAMED FOR WHATEVER WE GOT WRONG ABOUT WMD
PHASE IX - OUR CRiTICS ARE BEING UNREASONABLE ABOUT WMD
PHASE X - WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHAT WE SAID ABOUT WMD?
I could talk about the Administration's mendacity in stating that any member of the White House found out to be complicit in "outing" Valerie Plame will be handed their walking papers...so far, no papers issued.

I could talk about the mendacity of labelling energy co-giveaway bills as "Clear Skies:"

Quote:
why is the Administration bragging about a plan that will actually result in more pollution than if we simply enforced the existing Clean Air Act?
Healthy Forests: a plan to increase tree removal, and "No Child Left Behind:" an act that made students and teachers jump through a very narrow hoop, to attain federal funding, and which was left woefully underfunded, thus making the legislation impossible to implement.

I could go on about all of these lies and more, and I wouldn't even be scratching the surface. Just take Bush's comments on AIDS, in his SoTU:

Quote:
GEORGE BUSH (tape): AIDS can be prevented. Antiretroviral drugs can extend life for many years and the cost of those drugs has dropped from $12,000 a year to under $300 a year, which places a tremendous possibility within our grasp.
Quote:
STEPHEN LEWIS (the United Nations special envoy for HIV/AIDS in Africa, former Canadian ambassador to the United Nations and former UNICEF official): I smiled to myself gently at the opening where he indicated the cost of drugs had come down to under $300 per person per year. It is only generic drug prices that have come down to under $300 per year. The brand name drugs are a minimum twice that and more. And obviously in the president's major plan the money which is used for the purchase of drugs is used for the purchase of brand name pharmaceuticals, not generics.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Even with the war he was actually saying things that were supported by current research- Say the WMD issue- which was then being reported and agreed to by several sources and more than a few other countries military.
SOMEONE is in deep need of a reality-check. Here, allow me to assist:

AP Staffer Fact-Checks Powell's UN Speech

Quote:
ALUMINUM TUBES: Powell said "most United States experts" believed aluminum tubes sought by Iraq were intended for use as centrifuge cylinders for enriching uranium for nuclear bombs.
Energy Department experts and Powell's own State Department intelligence bureau had already dissented from this CIA view... No centrifuge program has been reported found.

REVIVED NUCLEAR PROGRAM: "We have no indication that Saddam Hussein has ever abandoned his nuclear weapons program," Powell said.

On July 24, Foreign Minister Ana Palacio of Spain, a U.S. ally on Iraq, said there was "no evidence, no proof" of a nuclear bomb program before the war. No such evidence has been reported found since the invasion.

DECONTAMINATION VEHICLES: At two sites, Powell said trucks were "decontamination vehicles" associated with chemical weapons.

Nothing has been reported found since... Norwegian inspector Jorn Siljeholm told AP on March 19 that "decontamination vehicles" U.N. teams were led to by U.S. information invariably turned out to be water or fire trucks.

BIOWEAPONS TRAILERS: Powell said defectors had told of "biological weapons factories" on trucks and in train cars. He displayed artists' conceptions of such vehicles.

After the invasion, U.S. authorities said they found two such truck trailers in Iraq, and the CIA said it concluded they were part of a bioweapons production line. But no trace of biological agents was found on them, Iraqis said the equipment made hydrogen for weather balloons, and State Department intelligence balked at the CIA's conclusion.

DESERT WEAPONS: According to Powell, unidentified sources said the Iraqis dispersed rocket launchers and warheads holding biological weapons to the western desert, hiding them in palm groves and moving them every one to four weeks.

Nothing has been reported found, after months of searching by U.S. and Australian troops in the nearly empty desert.

ANTHRAX: Powell noted Iraq had declared it produced 8,500 liters of the biological agent anthrax before 1991. None has been "verifiably accounted for," he said.

No anthrax has been reported found, post-invasion. The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), in a confidential report last September (five months before the Powell speech) said that although it believed Iraq had biological weapons it didn't know their nature, amounts, or condition.

UNMANNED AIRCRAFT: Powell showed video of an Iraqi F-1 Mirage jet spraying "simulated anthrax." He said four such spray tanks were unaccounted for, and Iraq was building small unmanned aircraft "well suited for dispensing chemical and biological weapons."

According to U.N. inspectors' reports, the video predated the 1991 Gulf War, when the Mirage was said to have been destroyed, and three of the four spray tanks were destroyed in the 1990s. No small drones or other planes with chemical-biological capability have been reported found in Iraq since the invasion.

FOUR TONS OF VX: Powell said Iraq produced four tons of the nerve agent VX.

Powell didn't note that most of that was destroyed in the 1990s under U.N. supervision. No VX has been reported found since the invasion. Experts at Britain's Internatonal Institute of Strategic Studies said any pre-1991 VX most likely would have degraded anyway.

'EMBEDDED' CAPABILITY: "We know that Iraq has embedded key portions of its illicit chemical weapons infrastructure within its legitimate civilian industry," Powell said.

No "chemical weapons infrastructure" has been reported found. The recently-disclosed DIA report of last September said there was "no reliable information" on where Iraq might have established chem-warfare facilities.

CHEMICAL AGENTS: "Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical-weapons agent," Powell said.

Powell gave no basis for the assertion, and no such agents have been reported found. That same DIA report had reported "no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons."

CHEMICAL WEAPONS: "Saddam Hussein has chemical weapons...And we have sources who tell us that he recently has authorized his field commanders to use them," Powell said.

No such weapons were used in the war and none was reported found.

CHEMICAL WARHEADS: Powell said 122-mm "chemical" warheads found by U.N. inspectors in January might be the "tip of an iceberg."

The warheads were empty, a fact Powell didn't note. No others have been reported found since the invasion.

SCUDS, NEW MISSILES: Powell said "intelligence sources" indicate Iraq had a secret force of up to a few dozen prohibited Scud-type missiles. He said it also had a program to build newer, 600-mile-range missiles.

No Scud-type missiles have been reported found. No program for long-range missiles has been reported.
Sorry, but you must be reporting the events from another planet. On OUR planet, there have been NO verified reports of wmds, or anything else presented as "Proof" by the now-embarassed Powell, to the UN.

I suggest you find alternatives to news besides Newsmax and Frontpagemagazine.

Quote:
The fact they were not found still doesn't make -all of those sources liars anymore then it makes Bush a liar.
Uh huh. Newsflash, Dan: we're not talking about a few warheads. We were talking about TONS of supposed sarin gas, biological agents, and nuclear weapons stockpiles, supposedly hidden underground, in a supposed massive laboratory...remember that?

Quote:
And we did have video of weeks of truck convoys going to Siria.
Proving, only that truck convoys move btw Syria, and Iraq.

Whoah. Call out the UN for THIS one!

Quote:
Wrong intelligence by several countries makes our President a liar.
I am not happy with many things he's done and I voted for him. But you guys are off the charts. I stopped reading because this level of discourse is the worst type of tripe found on the internet.
You stopped reading because you don't agree with what you see, and you cannot support what you believe, with creditable documentation.

Quote:
As far as us not agreeing with "the world." May we forever run in oppostion to the United Nations. Nothing could make me happier.
Now, THERE's a sure recipe for peace, if ever I heard one! Oh, yeah! That worked SO well in '03 when W declared the UN irrelevant, didn't it?

Turns out that W & Co came crawling back to the UN to help them out of the quagmire that they dug so well for themselves.

Quote:
We have led "the world" on many occasions, and still do.
Sure do. We lead the world in small arms sales, heavy military bombs and planes, etc. Yep, we sure are the heralds of peace, right? Oh, wait...I forgot: we have a "war President," now.

War is on his mind, when he comes into work. He said so, himself.

Yeah, we sure are "leading the world" in SOMETHING, all right.

Quote:
Self-hatred is always popular, usually among the young, and is always rather sad. And no I don't think its unpatriotic- it is part of the process. But I see so many going way overboard.

Dan
Self-hatred is always the convenient label, for those name-callers who cannot seem to get their views in compliment with the events of the world. And so, they need to miscategorize honest critique with "self-hatred."

It's an old pattern. Just ask Mike or John H...they do it all the time: just as you.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-25-2007 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:58 PM   #75
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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And, speaking of nontruths...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
At least I am accurate.

Mike
Uh huh. At least, in the World According to Mikey.

PREJECTIONS, do not = "absolute facts" (not to be confused, with Absolut Vodka).

SOMEone needs a refresher on statistics! Look at the study again, Mike. The 650,000 is only a prejection.

Sheesh. The extents you'll go to bend the truth until it fits your worldview...it's like watching pretzels being made, or attending a saltwater taffy-pull.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-25-2007 at 03:08 PM.
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