Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-10-2007, 05:49 PM   #26
DaveS
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 91
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

I'm really enjoying learning Muay Thai on the side. I think a lot of the reasons I'm enjoying it so much come from the fact that it's technically very diiferent from aikido. Firstly, this lets me learn about a whole lot of subtle and cool new stuff - boxing combinations, kicks and what to do about them, clinching and so on - that I wouldn't even have seen in my aikido training. Secondly, it makes it that much cooler when you occasionally realize that what you just did could alternatively be considered an aikido technique.

Judo and BJJ look like they might make interesting complements, too, but there's no way I can currently study them without compromising my aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2007, 06:08 PM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Too much to study...too little time!

I am the exact opposite, study BJJ and wish I had time to study Muay Thai some!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2007, 08:16 PM   #28
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,019
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Muay Thai is a lot of fun, nasty and a good workout. I had a chance to use the training facilities at a muay Thai school in Chiang Mai when I was in Thailand (couldn't actually train with the others because of being female), and enjoyed watching the bouts at the local watering hole... fun to sit in on because sometimes a farang/foreigner training in the area would want to take a go at it, and got thumped.

But the movements of muay Thai, like those of TKD and other basic P/K arts, run counter to most of the body alignments, movements and essential power-generating sources of aiki arts. I envy those of you who can practice these things without compromising your aikido, but I had to give up torque/projectile MAs in order to re-form my body to be able to do the stuff I do now.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2007, 05:04 AM   #29
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

I don't think they run counter really, the angles and vortexes are all the same done correctly. The dynamic and timing may be different in somethings as you are concerned with striking and kicking more so. The non-compliance aspect and sport rules certainly influence what happens, but it is subject to the same principles and done correctly, can help you figure out how to apply aikido concepts in an non-compliant environment. Very compatible if you ask me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2007, 02:19 PM   #30
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Well I've taught people over the years who trained in those striking arts who would strongly disagree with you, Kevin. Including a few who have seen their striking power increase greatly. Punching, kicking and throwing both long range and in close can have power generated differently then what they knew. Several of whom were muay tai guys, Goju guys, Kyokushin Karate and boxers.
Maybe the fact that -you- can't see the difference, doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one.
Power can be generated externally or internally or a combination of both. Anyone who tells me "It's all the same." pretty much tells me allot about their understanding.
Don't get me wrong there are great fighters who use external muscles. So, no.... I am not talking down to ya in that aspect.
I just personally know dozens of men who would not agree with you that what I taught them was the same as what they walked in with.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-11-2007 at 02:33 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2007, 03:38 PM   #31
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,019
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I don't think they run counter really, the angles and vortexes are all the same done correctly. The dynamic and timing may be different in somethings as you are concerned with striking and kicking more so. The non-compliance aspect and sport rules certainly influence what happens, but it is subject to the same principles and done correctly, can help you figure out how to apply aikido concepts in an non-compliant environment. Very compatible if you ask me.
Hi Kevin,
The "internal" power generation of Ueshiba's aikido (the stuff Mike, Dan and Rob refer to) really does run counter to the "external" (muscular) type of power generation that are the mainstays of p/k arts such as muay Thai. The difference became pretty clear within a few weeks of starting to study internal arts, after I'd spent more than 20 years "specializing" in punching and striking, studying under teachers who were karateka and boxers, among others. It quickly became clear that the very mechanisms that create powerful external/projectile punching stymie the development of relaxed, non-muscular internal power.

Don't get me wrong; the power of external strikes/punches and kicks from a good puncher/striker/kicker is not something any sane person would want to take to critical points of the body. But I'm finding that the internal sources require a very different way of focusing mind and neuro-muscular impulses. I just can't see dividing training time between two such contrasting forms of power generation. To get anywhere at all, in my opinion, you have to choose one or the other and follow the path with both feet.

Last edited by akiy : 02-11-2007 at 10:53 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2007, 03:39 PM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

I suppose it is quite possible I do not know what I am talking about, thank you for pointing that out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2007, 08:35 PM   #33
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,019
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Nah. I just stink at describing things, and probably even moreso at integrating two different forms of energy development and transfer. :^\ P/K, in its contemporary forms such as modern muay Thai and TKD, Shotokan karate and the like, tends to require a more rigid body alignment forming a very simple pathway to transfer energy, and the source of the energy is pretty simplistic in origin and in use. It relies heavily on hip/body torque and acceleration, and requires the practitioner to be in motion to generate the most power. It works in bursts of acceleration that are fairly anaerobic and linear.

It's external - not just because of the use of muscle and torque, but also because in most cases, power is being generated only by you and is sent away from you. You aren't receiving energy into your body from someone else then delivering it back. Energy from others is usually deflected or redirected, as in parries and blocks.

That just seems counter to what you'd try to accomplish in aikido and other aiki arts.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-11-2007 at 08:46 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 09:12 AM   #34
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Maybe a better question is what do people think Aikido teaches as a mechanic...to..punch. How would it generate power from a punch to a throw.
How would it stop-the same things such as Single and double legs, head kicks, underhooks, fients and jabs etc, etc.
How would its theories of movement defend against a well balanced attacker. I think thats more in tune with Aikido mixing with other arts. I really don't think most in the art are working on basic internal movement anyway so I'd set that aside
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 11:37 AM   #35
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,118
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

I like to think of Aikido as the horse with which I started the race. I may do other things, but I will finish the race on that horse.

Aikido provides me with competent training in a Japanese martial art. I choose to suppliment my aikido training in those area where I struggle to excel. Judo, karate, and jujitsu are great aids to my aikido training and I appreciate those who help me in my training. I really like Dan's post about limiting the influence of training in secondary or tertiary martial arts. Train aikido. If you are weak with striking, take karate. If you are weak with throws, play judo. If you have bad weapons skills, practice kenjitsu. Make your aikido better.

Aikido is a martial art system which does not lack anything. Do not mistake poor instruction for a poor system. If you are looking for something you do not find in your aikido training, I would first ask if you are training correctly. If you are training correctly, but you still do not find what you are looking for in aikido, aikido is not for you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 12:12 PM   #36
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Jon,

Aikido principally may not lack anything, certainly anything is within the realm of aikido if you ask me.....but in many aspects the way it is traditonally trained, it does lack in many areas, in so much as it is not one size fits all and cannot be all things to all people and does not train certain aspects of martial technique as well as some other methodlogies.

But, I agree, it is not lacking in the spirit that you are presenting it in when trained correctly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 04:23 PM   #37
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Maybe a better question is what do people think Aikido teaches as a mechanic...to..punch. How would it generate power from a punch to a throw.
How would it stop-the same things such as Single and double legs, head kicks, underhooks, fients and jabs etc, etc.
How would its theories of movement defend against a well balanced attacker. I think thats more in tune with Aikido mixing with other arts. I really don't think most in the art are working on basic internal movement anyway so I'd set that aside
Dan
Excellent tack. Reframe the question and hope for a paradigm shift...

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 04:36 PM   #38
DaveS
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 91
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

I think there's a difference between wanting to learn another art because aikido lacks something you need and learning it because you feel aikido lacks[1] something you find interesting. For instance, if I went to learn BJJ, it wouldn't be because I'm worried about needing to use groundwork and that being a gap in my aikido, but because I'd be interested to find out how groundwork works, and would enjoy the challenge of learning it.

@ Cady - would you say the contrasting methods of generating power cause a problem only if you're trying to 'combine' the arts in some way? And if not, does this stop at martial arts, or could training in other sports like (say) rugby or rowing or volleyball? And how would you work with atemi in an aikido context?

[1] edit: 'doesn't teach' might be a better phrase than 'lacks' - aikido doesn't teach basket weaving, but saying it lacks basket weaving techniques suggests that this is a significant shortcoming. Which to my mind it isn't.

Last edited by DaveS : 02-12-2007 at 04:39 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 07:00 PM   #39
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Could try Yoseikan Budo (YWF).
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 09:02 PM   #40
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,019
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

David,

I'm just musing here, but I'd say it depends on the arts we're combining. I suspect that if the arts we practice historically incorporated both, then even if they are missing portions of those principles today and have moved in other directions, they may still be structurally compatible (although in need of refitting alterations) to take them back in and utilize them again. Sometimes, that means looking at/cross training in other arts that have those skills available.

An example might be Okinawan karate systems that are purported to have been influenced by Chinese internal arts. After having been in various karate dojo over the years, I recall that some of them did "funny exercises" that didn't seem to provide anything specific other than vague "conditioning," but which I believe now were the vestiges of training methods originally meant to produce power from sources other than the P/K torque approach we're used to seeing. Somehow, the original meaning and function of the exercises got lost or changed along the way and thus lost some or all of their potency. Their students might find that cross training in certain Chinese disciplines would be compatible with what they are doing, and they may have an "aha" moment someday when doing those dojo "conditioning" exercises. I don't know.

But if that is so, then I'd have to say there is the potential for seemingly contrasting methods for generating power to -not- be a problem. Again, it depends on the arts that you're combining. Wouldn't we want there to be a common thread among them, a physical compatibility, so we're not trying to attach the butt of a horse to the torso of a cat?

Rather than just sampling other arts to see what they're like, or to pick up a few "side skills," wouldn't it make more sense to find those which truly augment the skills we are already practicing?

As for "cross training" in sports that seem compatible... I say if you want a radish, plant a radish. Why go outside your field for the nebulous possibility of finding a skill you can use in an unrelated activity? I'd rather search first within my art, and then in related arts, to find what is "missing."

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-12-2007 at 09:16 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 09:27 PM   #41
aikidjoe
Dojo: Tenzan Aikido / Boulder Aikikai
Location: Boulder, CO
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 12
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
But then are you not just dancing? what is the point of doing aikido if you are not trying to resolve conflict or mitigate something. I completely understand the need for "cooperative spirit" and "cooperative technique", but I think you have to walk the edge slightly close to being uncooperative.

It may not be fun at times, and certainly frustrating. I am certainly not in the business of studying budo for warm and fuzzies. ...

Is aikido about blending and cooperating? or is it about mitigating adversity and conflict?

I believe there is a difference.
I think Kevin is asking a critical question. If Aikido is about blending and cooperating, then it could conceivably live in its own world, in which case training in another martial art is not necessary. On the other hand, if Aikido is about mitigating adversity and conflict, then one must understand the nature of conflict. It appears to me that, if this is so, Aikido cannot stand alone. O'Sensei and most (all? I am not sure...) of his most prominent students trained in other martial arts prior and/or during their study of Aikido. It's been cited here in AikWeb and throughout Aikido Journal how they would test their skills on the streets and with other martial artists. This appears to me as a way to branch out and understand the essence of conflict, and a deeper study of how to resolve it.

Training in Aikido today seems terribly washed out compared to how it began (from what I've read). There is this mushy feeling that Aikido is about love and compassion, and so "walking the edge," as Kevin put it, is often ruled out for safety. This is sensible, for if we all got hurt, how could we train? But nonetheless it takes the danger, the fire, out of practice. The sense of conflict is gone, and without that conflict, what are we practicing? What are resolving? Are we really studying Aikido then? This is where pushing the limit comes in. Taking things to the edge allows us to study conflict in a more practical way, and only by understanding conflict can we understand how to resolve it.

This all is under the assumption that Aikido is about "mitigating adversity and conflict." If this is what you want to learn from your practice, then yes, training in another martial art would be beneficial. It exposes an aikidoist to forms of conflict that they are not familiar with, and deepens the study of it. If, on the other hand, your purpose is different, such as exercise, mental training, etc., then you can buffer your training in other ways such as bicycling, meditation, etc. Or, if you practice Aikido because its damn fun, then why look elsewhere?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2007, 11:38 PM   #42
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 979
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
......The difference became pretty clear within a few weeks of starting to study internal arts, after I'd spent more than 20 years "specializing" in punching and striking, studying under teachers who were karateka and boxers, among others. It quickly became clear that the very mechanisms that create powerful external/projectile punching stymie the development of relaxed, non-muscular internal power.....
Yet I fnd importan similarities. I can't think of one of the systems you mentioned that tells people to tense everything and just swing their arms. I've been working on trying to relax my shoulders for almost ten years now, since my karate teacher pointed it out to me. In Western Boxing, not only are you supposed to keep your shoulders relaxed (even when you lift your shoulder t cover your jaw) but you get power for the cross and the hook from body turns, not the arms by themselves. In fact, the way I've been taught the lead hook, the arm does almost nothing.

It seems to me that "striking systems" reqire their fair shar of relaxation, too. Indeed, one of my justifications for returning to Aikido in 2004 was to work on relaxing my shoulders. (Doubly frustrating because every time I think I'm making progress, someone points out how tight my shoulders are.) So I'm with Kevin. At least WRT the need to be relaxed, Aikido is right there with other arts, including striking arts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2007, 02:50 AM   #43
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Relaxation is step one, allowing the body to be a conduit. But a conduit....for what? Relaxed movement is not nearly all the same.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2007, 09:15 AM   #44
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,019
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

Michael, I didn't mean to sound as though I were saying that P/K movement is not relaxed, or that it "muscles" its movements. That was awkward phrasing on my part. Relaxation is critical to any physical endeavor. We wouldn't be able to walk without it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2007, 03:01 PM   #45
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido mixed with other martial arts

relaxation is definitely important. it is related to propriception. with propriception we relax in one area where resistance is felt....then you realign and transfer that energy to another area in which to return that energy.

Hard to describe for me as it is a feeling. Relax, align, breath, and redirect....it all connects and goes together.

There is more to it than just relaxing.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
What the hell? Chris Birke General 127 06-03-2006 08:41 AM
Culture of Martial Mediocrity? L. Camejo Training 160 02-03-2006 01:25 AM
Highest Level Martial Arts and Aikido Mike Sigman General 240 08-12-2005 06:22 PM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:11 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate