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Old 01-19-2007, 02:13 PM   #1
Demetrio Cereijo
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Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

This pic has been posted in another forum (scanned from a martial arts magazine) and the performers said the man in the right side is performing Haruo Matsuoka style tsuki no kamae.

Imho it's a very unusual way of grabbing the bokken. Can someone with experience/knowledge about Matsuoka Sensei's buki waza explain the reasons for this unusual kamae?

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-19-2007 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:17 PM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

a) why do these guys want someone to cut their finger off??

b) Just cause someone **claims** this came from Matsuoka Sensei, doesn't necessarily make it so.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:28 PM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

This pic is from the Doshinokai website...
http://www.doshinokai.com/

I don't see M. Sensei holding his jo with the fingers extended like that...or anyone else on website.

Best,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:33 PM   #4
MM
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

I haven't seen much sword work, but the guy on the right has the bokken with the blade up. Is there a school out there that practices this way?
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:44 PM   #5
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
I haven't seen much sword work, but the guy on the right has the bokken with the blade up. Is there a school out there that practices this way?
Yes but it looks like he's holding the handle wrong for that position. This one resembles an exercise we do in our dojos.
Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 01-19-2007, 02:45 PM   #6
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
I haven't seen much sword work, but the guy on the right has the bokken with the blade up. Is there a school out there that practices this way?
As i pointed before, has been said this is proper (or at least not improper) tsuki no kamae in Matsuoka S. style.
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Old 01-19-2007, 03:00 PM   #7
MM
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Thank you for the answers Jorge and Demetrio.

I had never seen a kamae like that. It's like a chudan but with the blade up. That's why I asked.
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Old 01-19-2007, 04:54 PM   #8
James Young
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Matsuoka-sensei does not hold the bokken backwards in chudan position like the person in the picture. Basically, I think there is confusion on this point. What Matsuoka-sensei often will do though is when he's moving in for a tsuki strike (from chudan kamae let's say) he will turn his bokken over so the blade is facing up by the end of his tsuki. Of course in this case though he is rotating his wrists so the top of his right hand is facing towards the ground at the end of his tsuki. This rotation happens quickly in the moment of him moving one step forward to close the gap for the tsuki. As far as his kamae is concerned (jodan, chudan, gedan, hasso, etc.) it's always blade down or facing towards the front as one would normally expect.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:08 PM   #9
raul rodrigo
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

The alignment for ken is that the index finger points in the same direction as the cutting edge of the blade. Otherwise there would be no power for the cut. Whenever we have the edge facing upwards, the wrists turn and the index finger points at the ceiling.
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Old 01-20-2007, 12:36 PM   #10
Don_Modesto
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
As i pointed before, has been said this is proper (or at least not improper) tsuki no kamae in Matsuoka S. style.
Where'd ya get the pic?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 01-20-2007, 07:13 PM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Hi Raul, no offense, but a classically trained swordsman would laugh at that pic...

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-20-2007, 07:18 PM   #12
raul rodrigo
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Raul, no offense, but a classically trained swordsman would laugh at that pic...

Best,
Ron

Why should i be offended?
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Old 01-20-2007, 07:34 PM   #13
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

ah, sorry, I got the impression that perhaps you pointed your fingers out away from the bokken as they did. My mistake (not unusual, me making a mistake )

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-20-2007, 07:56 PM   #14
raul rodrigo
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Uhh no. My index finger stays where it should. I think I was just explaining the logic for the alignment of the ken's cutting edge (as our shihan explained it to me). I didnt express myself clearly.

I was being nice. I mean, the other guy in the supposed hasso stance looks pretty funny too, but I didnt say anything.

Last edited by raul rodrigo : 01-20-2007 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:55 AM   #15
TeppoLeinonen
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

One thing I find curious is the 'pointing fingers' grip... Sure, the forefinger is supposed to be the one that hodls the lightest... But pointing fingers away from hilt (and on a jo as well?) is asking for broken bones.

The less 'frayed' your grip is, the less there is also chance for accidental hooking...

Not going to comment on the gamae, I think it's been covered already well enough.
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Old 01-23-2007, 07:55 AM   #16
SeiserL
 
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Having had the opportunity to actually train with Matsuoka Sensei, IMHO, we are making too much of a bad picture.

I never say him with the blade up, IMHO, just a human mistake.

Too many of us from an Aikido background keep our first finger out, even on the sword, just another human mistake.

One student picture out of context does not a statement about a sensei/system make.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:13 AM   #17
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Seiser, I think no one here has criticized Matsuoka-sensei. What we have criticized is the photo, and the people in it. Not to mention the ones who put it up in a magazine, if I understood right the path the picture entered our scrutiny here.
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:25 AM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Hi Teppo, I think you have it right. I was concerned that people might think that was what Matsuoka Sensei was teaching. From my small amount of exposure to him...I didn't think so.

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-23-2007, 12:30 PM   #19
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Where'd ya get the pic?
Here:
http://www.aikiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1270
And it's from the MA magazine "El Budoka", Jan 07 issue.

Let's see.

The original thread with the pic was started by a Shin Shin Aiki Shuren Kai guy who basically said "people should review the materials before printing the magazines".

Some posts later, a man named Marcos Peña Molina, Aikido instructor who says he's a follower of Seagal - Matsuoka style (and i think the one with the jo in "hasso" kamae) wrote:

Quote:
...y el otro que porta el bokken esta en acción para hacer tsuki, y para hacer este movimiento el bokken o puede partir girado desde el principio o giran las manos al final.
Roughly translated: to do this movement (tsuki) bokken can start turned or can be turned at the end.

Then, things went a bit heathen and various dojo yaburi were issued.

I wanted to confirm from independent sources if this tsuki kamae is usual in Matsuoka Sensei or if it was a Mr. Peña attempt to save face; you know, self-web image and assorted insecurities.

In any case my intentions were to critizise Matsuoka Sensei, only have oppinions from more experienced practitioners.

Regards.
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:41 PM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Then, things went a bit heathen and various dojo yaburi were issued.
Yikes! Guess I won't pay that site a visit

Quote:
In any case my intentions were to critizise Matsuoka Sensei, only have oppinions from more experienced practitioners.
Uh, I think you meant "were not to critisize M. S.", correct?

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-23-2007, 12:47 PM   #21
Don_Modesto
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Teppo, I think you have it right. I was concerned that people might think that was what Matsuoka Sensei was teaching. From my small amount of exposure to him...I didn't think so.
Thus my question as to the source of the pic. Is it even a Matsuoka class?

And where the H is the original poster?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:57 PM   #22
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Uh, I think you meant "were not to critisize M. S.", correct?

Best,
Ron
Exactly, sorry. I have to work more in my English skills, and read posts twice instead of writing on the fly.

Quote:
Don Modesto wrote:
Thus my question as to the source of the pic. Is it even a Matsuoka class?

And where the H is the original poster?
It's a class teached by people who say they follow Matsuoka Sensei style.

The original poster?... Here it's me, in the Spanish forum i linked is a guy who I only know about him is his Shin Shin Aiki Shuren Kai affiliation and he lives far away from me.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-23-2007 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:44 PM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Heh, you should see my Spanish...

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-23-2007, 05:23 PM   #24
James Young
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
I wanted to confirm from independent sources if this tsuki kamae is usual in Matsuoka Sensei or if it was a Mr. Peña attempt to save face; you know, self-web image and assorted insecurities.
I can't speak to Mr. Pena's motives, but as I stated in my post above (#8) the kamae with the bokken upside down is not usual and is not practiced or taught by Matsuoka-sensei.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Roughly translated: to do this movement (tsuki) bokken can start turned or can be turned at the end.
Once again Matsuoka-sensei will turn the bokken at the end of his tsuki movement, but as far as starting that way, especially with that hands in the normal grip, is not something that is done by Matsuoka-sensei. I'm not familiar with all kenjutsu styles, but I've never seen that from any other teacher either.

This is a case that they either don't fully understand Matsuoka-sensei teachings or it was likely an honest mistake and somebody was just accidently holding their bokken upside down and it got misinterpreted in the magazine as Matsuoka-sensei's "tsuki no kamae".

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Some posts later, a man named Marcos Peña Molina, Aikido instructor who says he's a follower of Seagal - Matsuoka style (and i think the one with the jo in "hasso" kamae).
I do know there is a group in Spain that invites Matsuoka-sensei over for seminars and a few members have come to California to practice at Matsuoka-sensei's dojo, but they are not officially affiliated with Matsuoka-sensei and his organization. I don't know if this picture is of members in this group but saying they are followers of Seagal-Matsuoka style is somewhat odd since there is no such "style" of aikido technically. There is the aikido that Seagal-sensei does and the aikido that Matsuoka-sensei does but neither makes claim to teach or do a specific style that bears their name. I'm sure people can point to certain characteristics of their aikido which may be somewhat unique to them, but that can be found with all aikido teachers.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
The original thread with the pic was started by a Shin Shin Aiki Shuren Kai guy who basically said "people should review the materials before printing the magazines".
Considering the confusion that started this thread, that's probably good advice.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
In any case my intentions were to (not)critizise Matsuoka Sensei, only have oppinions from more experienced practitioners.
I didn't take your comments as criticism of Matsuoka-sensei, it seems you were sincerely trying to just confirm information you found in print. I hope my comments helped you.
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Old 01-28-2007, 05:48 PM   #25
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Haruo Matsuoka's tsuki no kamae

Thanks everybody for the informative posts, especially to the ones with direct experience under Matsuoka Sensei.

Quote:
James Young wrote:
There is the aikido that Seagal-sensei does and the aikido that Matsuoka-sensei does but neither makes claim to teach or do a specific style that bears their name. I'm sure people can point to certain characteristics of their aikido which may be somewhat unique to them, but that can be found with all aikido teachers.
I found in the web a pair of clips of the spanish group of followers of Matsuoka Sensei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VZAswLEYwg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP-ns7gMDU0

They look "seagalish" to me, but i lack enough knowledge to differentiate Seagal Sensei style from Matsuoka Sensei style.

And in their webpage can be read:
Quote:
En la actualidad Matsuoka Sensei dirige el progreso técnico de Marcos y Antonio, así como la dirección técnica de la Kisei Dojo en España.
http://www.kiseidojo.org/Temas/temas...14&MarcoFoto=1

Roughly translated: Today Matsuoka Sensei leads the technical progress of Marcos and Antonio (Kisei dojo instructors), and also the technical direction of Kisei Dojo in Spain.
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