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Old 01-11-2007, 12:16 AM   #51
thinking
Dojo: Blue Ridge Ki-Society
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Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Wow, for someone who does not train in aikido, Justin sure is very opinionated on the subject at hand. Sigh... such is the power of the Internet, one can surf the net, and read all about a certain subject and voila, become an 'opinion leader'.

Boon.
I too was thinking the same thing i cant say much for the aikido side being i just started. but i have trained in other arts

Its Not a Style But its a Way Of Life......
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:20 AM   #52
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?

Fascinating. As a matter of personal opinion from my own experience, military, legal practice, and as observer of the ugliness of politics, there is no field of conflict or means of conflict that I have yet found to be outside the principles of aikido. In this I agree with David Orange's citation to Mochizuki Sensei.

I do not teach students to "do kicks" per se, as part of the curriculum of techniques my teachers gave me, because they did not. As kicks present unique openings, and are attacks that may occur, however, I was taught and do teach responses to them. It is therefore necessary to have students know the rudiments of kicking. Plus, many beginners perform techniques that are remarkably exposed to the odd knee strike, which is the least exposed of the leg strikes available. They need do to be show this from time to time to adjust their movement or posture. After having trained in responding to kicks, however, the responses are not fundamentaly different from that applicable to any other attack.

As to current Doshu or Kisshomaru Doshu's emphasis regarding kicking in training, (as opposed to recommending their use) , I doubt seriously that either Doshu ever realistically meant "Never kick." Japanese culture has an almost pathological aversion to the flat "No!" much less "Never!"

Their teaching defines the main body of the art, but I doubt seriously that even they would or have claimed that they can define the whole of an art which at its highest expression is intended to allow one to spontaneously generate responses to attack and even to create wholly new techniques in that moment. In such a context, those who work the frontiers are not not usefully told "No" or "Stop" as it would, first, be exceedingly rude to do so, and second, would be antithetical to the principles of the art.

There must however, be decent respect for the main corpus of the teaching as a sound and necessary foundation and reservoir of the principles of aikido, which it is the purpose of the Doshu to preserve and promulgate.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-11-2007, 11:23 AM   #53
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?

Quote:
part of the main syllabus of aikido.
This statement (and other statements, as well as statements by some of the posters above) highlights the problem we are discussing.

On the one hand, we have people discussing a principle based art, with a wide variety of means and methods to teach those principles...all from perfectly valid sources (yoshinkan, aikikai, shodokan, independant). On the other hand, we have a dogmatic perspective, one that insists on looking at a static, rigid, set curriculum that does not exist in the aikido world.

I'll say it again...it does not exist...even within the aikikai, which ranges from the keiko of the current doshu, to the Iwama groups, to the keiko of Nishio Sensei (which does include influences from karate, and kicks). This is even without stepping out of the aikikai...

It's pretty clear when someone is not familiar with these things. It's a shame more of us don't get out and experience them.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-11-2007, 01:41 PM   #54
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What happens AFTER the pin?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Very old 14 sec clip of Saotome using kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkdRMZjuUBs

... talking about principals. You simply cannot take a black and white and fundamental view of aikido. .... Punches, grabs, knifes, and sticks also play a part, ...
The video is interesting, because in the last two usages shown the tai sabaki is identical to the final movement in the jo suburi hasso gaeshi ushiro harai, just substituting the leg for the stick.

Principles --- ain't they wunn'erful !

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:58 PM   #55
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?

That's not the only time I've seen him use kicks. Ask Don Modesto about Saotome Sensei's kicks!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:03 PM   #56
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?

If one had built the bujutsu body, then kicking would just be another application of said body.
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:04 PM   #57
raul rodrigo
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Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
we have a dogmatic perspective, one that insists on looking at a static, rigid, set curriculum that does not exist in the aikido world. I'll say it again...it does not exist...even within the aikikai,

But when all one knows of aikido is just what he has read in books, then its easy to see where that rigidity and misunderstanding comes from.


best,


RAUL
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Old 01-12-2007, 04:25 AM   #58
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?

No, I have worked with Saotome Sensei a number of times in which he incorporated kicks into his classes. It was never to learn how to be a better kicker or to demonstrate the efficiency or lethality of kicks, only to convey the principles he was trying to teach in the class.

Justin asked a question earlier about where you draw the line concerning what you can include in aikido. BJJ, Kicks, knifes, etc. Yes you can include any and all techniques that are humanly possible. Where you draw the line is principles. The principles of aikido are based based on the philosophical beliefs first established by the founder, and generally agreed upon today by the majority of people who identify with the word or art of aikido.

Typically it centers around the concepts of peace and harmony, or the resolution of conflict, first through private victory by mastering and conquering yourself, and then by public victory, when we can take the private victories and use them to achieve balance, peace, and harmony in the world.

It strives for interdependence.

Therefore, the techniques used are much unimportant, and anything could be used to demonstrate or practice these points and to help us realize the lessons.
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Old 01-12-2007, 07:47 AM   #59
Ketsan
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Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?

Sugawara also shows kicks on his tai chi style kata
http://www.santarosaaikido.com/Aiki%...20kata%203.wmv
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