Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-16-2006, 10:19 AM   #26
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

I should film it next week and upload it onto youtube. Actually would be nice if we had a technique database. Maybe have a different technique every month. Be nice to see what others are doing...
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2006, 02:55 PM   #27
justin
Location: swansea wales
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 249
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote:
I should film it next week and upload it onto youtube. Actually would be nice if we had a technique database. Maybe have a different technique every month. Be nice to see what others are doing...

thats a good idea sounds like shed loads of work though
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2006, 04:08 PM   #28
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Can anyone figure out how to base uke's hand without grabbing? That's a nice one...uke rarely even realizes what waza you used to throw them.

Best,
Ron
Not sure I understand how this can be done. Can you link to some pics or vid?


Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2006, 01:36 AM   #29
Mike Hamer
 
Mike Hamer's Avatar
Dojo: Shinki Rengo, Mt. Pleasant MI
Location: Alma, MI
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

I asked a senior student about it today, and he explained that we do it the way we do so that you could more quickly deflect another oncoming attack, as someone here has already said.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2006, 07:04 AM   #30
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Let me get back to you Amir...I gave a short description earlier, but I will try to give a more detailed version shortly.

Best,
Ron (sorry, no pics)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2006, 09:11 AM   #31
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

My understanding of kotegaeshi is nowhere near mastery. So, take what you will from my explanation. My disclaimer is that this is all my view at this point in my training. Things change, I'm not always right, and I continually learn new things.

The principle of kotegaeshi isn't to twist the wrist and make uke fall. Anyone with any understanding of relaxation and dispersing of energy will make this kind of kotegaeshi fail every time. I stand on one leg, lean over backwards and give my students my wrist. They attempt kotegaeshi through twisting of the wrist and fail most every time. The times that they don't fail are because I'm not great at relaxing and energy dispersion.

So, what is the principle of kotegaeshi? For most purposes, the "external" version is the common one and I'll describe my thoughts on that. Besides, I'm not that great at the "internal" version so I'd mess it all up anyway.

What goes on in kotegaeshi? Well, the first thing that happens is that we must control uke at the point of contact. In this case, our point of contact is the wrist. What do we want to do with uke? We want uke to eventually twist in an outward, downward, spiral manner. Now, there are many ways of accomplishing this and that is where we get into variations.

At point of contact, which is uke's wrist, we want to roll uke's center forward and twist/turn it. This causes uke to over-commit at the end of the attack. Uke will readjust to regain center/balance and in certain conditions, we can start to apply kotegaeshi. (In other conditions, uke's movement is in a completely different direction and kotegaeshi can not be easily applied. These instances call for other techniques.)

While uke's movement to regain balance is taking place (either hips shoot forward under shoulders or shoulders go backwards over hips), we roll uke's center backwards, twist/turn it, and spiral it downwards. Sort of like taking a screw and screwing it into a piece of wood, only done in 3 directions. In addition, this is done smoothly, such that uke's center rolls/twists forward and keeps rolling through to the outward and downward spiral. Principle wise, though, the main focus on kotegaeshi is that last part with the outward and downward spiral. You can be in any situation (ikkyo, gokyo, etc) and if you somehow find yourself at that part, then you've gotten to kotegaeshi.

An important point to remember is that we are not allowing uke's center to stabilize. For example, if uke's wrist is at mid-thigh level after the initial attack, we wouldn't bring uke's wrist up to mid-chest level to apply kotegaeshi and allow uke to regain balance. The end result is to have uke on the mat, so why would we allow uke to stand up and regain balance? Bringing that wrist upwards allows uke that chance. Now, note that I'm talking about tori/nage bringing uke's wrist upwards. That doesn't count for when uke is bringing his/her own wrist upwards. Those fall under variations and as long as uke's center is controlled and kuzushi is kept, tsukuri and kake should follow. Another view is how can you get uke to the ground if you are helping them stand up by raising their wrist?

At every point in time, we are concentrated on uke's center. The wrist is merely the physical link to the arm, which is the link to the shoulder, which is the link to the body, which leads to the center. Kotegaeshi is never about the wrist, but always about the center (which is the principle for every aikido technique, but that's another topic). In kotegaeshi, the center is turned in an outward, spiral, downward direction. The wrist just happens to mimic the center most times. But if you focus on the wrist, uke's center can do whatever it wants.

How do we accomplish the above? Physically, we use our hands to attach to uke's wrist. In what manner? That is where the variations occur. Depending on uke's movement, one variation might actually be more appropriate than the others. But, overall, it really shouldn't matter (except for each school's official curriculum for testing) where the hand is placed. In fact, if one has complete control of the center and great timing and excellent tsukuri, then kotegaeshi done with just the pointing finger of each hand can be accomplished.

Variations are great things. Where else can you work on a specific principle and do it from a multitude of physical differences? When beginning training, yes, we learn kotegaeshi from a specified technique. We're learning how to move, how to find the right timing and how to find the right tsukuri. At some point in training, though, we should be working on principles and not get caught up in what is the correct placement of my hand.

Again, all IMO, anyway. YMMV.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2006, 11:36 AM   #32
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

I also agree that being too focused on the wrist will make kotegaeshi difficult to do unless your a lot stronger than your opponent and can muscle it through. I think wrist manipulation is best applied when your opponent is distracted, ie. in pain, stunned, or trying to recover their balance, or is completely unaware of what you are doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2006, 06:27 AM   #33
dawolfie
Dojo: Aikido of Commerce, Commerce GA
Location: Commerce GA
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 13
United_States
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

At our dojo, we have seen so many kotegaeshi applications. Our teacher has worked with so many different teachers at hombu that he has seen pretty much all of them. We have experienced turning into the uke with our center. Making the hand turn out against our bodies. We have used our weight by going down to a knee at the end to "pull" the center downward. But the one we work with the most is the Endo style.

The teacher our dojo is most aligned is Endo. In this style there is a kotegaeshi without needing to apply the thumb and the turning out. It is more of blending the front hand and getting heavy on the inside of the elbow causing the arm to bend upward. With the heaviness still applied, the center of gravity is dropped and the uke goes down. This is used for tons of other throws and needs that essential connection and pressure to make it work correctly. So muscle will only screw it up. It is very difficult to get the first 20 times it is attempted. It takes a very good uke to "feel" the attack. So you need to be very empty minded and understand where your energy is going.

Maybe one day I can get it right, we have been working with it for a little while. It is very eye opening and enlightening.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2006, 11:57 PM   #34
Mike Hamer
 
Mike Hamer's Avatar
Dojo: Shinki Rengo, Mt. Pleasant MI
Location: Alma, MI
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Kotegaeshi is one of my fav's.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2006, 05:38 AM   #35
Stefan Stenudd
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 530
Sweden
Offline
Inward spiral

I like to see kotegaeshi as an inward spiral, with the wrist twist at its center. The actual twisting of the wrist would be insufficient - and rather unpleasant - without the spiral leading into it.

I have started to explore the technique a bit on my website, with text and video clips - mainly because my uke Mathias Hultman does such a neat ukemi on it:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/kotegaeshi.htm

Beginners in aikido seem quickly to trust their kotegaeshi, but my first Japanese teacher Ichimura sensei used to warn us that it is really a very difficult technique. Thirty-something years later, I'm still working on it...

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2006, 09:15 AM   #36
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
I'll probably get hammered for this, but ...

variations don't matter.

The reason there are variations is because the principle is applied in different manners. Apply the principle and forget about the variations, they'll follow naturally.

kuzushi ... tsukuri ... kake. You can't get kake without going through the others.

Kotegaeshi can be applied a multitude of ways. Learn the principle underlying the technique and don't focus on the technique so much.

Learn two ways ... either focus on internal center and uke will be effected from this. Or learn to affect uke by affecting his/her center. If you learn those, the handwork and footwork is a piece of cake. Or in other terms, the principle is the ura and the handwork/footwork is the omote.

All IMO anyway,
Mark
Amen...that was said well.........you are a gem

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 02:53 AM   #37
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

My favorite version is to just bypass the wrist altogether and grab the forearm with both hands. The body dynamics are the same, but I can feel their body more directly, the whole thing feels more torque-y, and they tend to hit the mat much harder. I usually only do it when I fumble the grip though, as it isn't the demonstrated version... come to think of it, I don't even know where I got it. Does anyone else do this version?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2007, 03:27 AM   #38
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Old thread Kevin, but a good one.
I'd like to ask you how you can succeed in applying a kotegaeshi-type throw by grabbing the forearm only? Is this applicable only with nice helpful Uke?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2007, 06:39 AM   #39
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
Old thread Kevin, but a good one.
I'd like to ask you how you can succeed in applying a kotegaeshi-type throw by grabbing the forearm only? Is this applicable only with nice helpful Uke?
In a way, I would say less so than the normal way. Uke seems to come down more in front of you than beside you, and actually hits the mat harder than a normal kote gaeshi, as you are torquing them down by their shoulder, as opposed to motivating them to move themself via stressing their forearm/wrist. It is theoretically possible with a normal kote gaeshi to just stand there and allow your wrist/forearm to be mangled - if the pain didn't cause you to jump/fall.

The connection is much stronger than with the wrist grab, as you grab the forearm with both hands - almost like an upside down yonkyo. Think of sliding the hand that normall does the work back a little, then grabbing behind that with the other - higher up the arm. Your body dynamics are almost the same - you must pivot at least 180 degrees - but it requires a bit more upper body movement. Now that I think of it, the yonkyo analogy is good. The throw I'm describing is to kote gaeshi as yonkyo is to sankyo - pretty much the same throw, you just choke up on the arm some.

Some people don't like to be thrown like this because of the shoulder torque, but it's not a problem if you just yield to it. It's also good as a reversal for ikkyo when uke is resisting bending their torso forward.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2007, 08:00 AM   #40
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,216
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
My favorite version is to just bypass the wrist altogether and grab the forearm with both hands. The body dynamics are the same, but I can feel their body more directly, the whole thing feels more torque-y, and they tend to hit the mat much harder. I usually only do it when I fumble the grip though, as it isn't the demonstrated version... come to think of it, I don't even know where I got it. Does anyone else do this version?

This version is a test.

In gassho

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2007, 09:57 AM   #41
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
My favorite version is to just bypass the wrist altogether and grab the forearm with both hands. The body dynamics are the same, but I can feel their body more directly, the whole thing feels more torque-y, and they tend to hit the mat much harder. I usually only do it when I fumble the grip though, as it isn't the demonstrated version... come to think of it, I don't even know where I got it. Does anyone else do this version?
Hi Kelvin,

Actually, this is not a variation of kotegaeshi (this is no inward bending of the wrist to make the connection). Rather, it is variation of kokyo-nage or an otoshi (a drop) technique. Like you've said, most ppl use it when they fumble with their grips. But,this "variation" can be countered with a simple kaeshiwaza - uke stepping into the direction of the throw/drop.

Just my 2 sen.

Best training

David Y
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2007, 12:53 PM   #42
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

For me, the thing is whether you can perform kote-gaeshi from outside the shoulder of the arm being manipulated (as well as ahead on the spiral being traced), or whether you are having to perform the technique on the inside of that shoulder (whether you are ahead on the spiral or not).

If you are outside that shoulder, almost anything works, with my preference being what I see Stefan doing in the picture on his website (because I like to ENSURE that uke goes topsy-turvy and this hand position allows one to continue the movement past the bottom apex and back up the other side of the circle).

If you are inside the shoulder, nothing works (my opinion) unless you actively address Uke's cross-lateral arm - because that arm can be used from anything to striking, countering, resisting, readjusting one's line of gravity back inside the base of support, etc. What often goes unnoticed is that folks disregard whether they are outside or inside the shoulder of uke. This is possible because Uke is often more primed to "go with" the technique than to note the differences that become relevant in regards to these two positions.

Additionally, in my experience, it's a tough tenkan maneuver to remain on the outside/ahead of the shoulder when returning for the gaeshi part of kote-gaeshi. Most folks do what I would call a "reversing" of uke's body/energy/body parts - which will almost certainly put you inside the shoulder of uke's.

Here's a video of one common version of what a person can do when inside the shoulder of uke - addressing the other arm directly:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...ietesttwo.html

Please excuse the funky music and the slow motion - we were testing our new software, etc., when we put that together. The technique in question the sixth technique executed.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2007, 05:13 PM   #43
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Hi Kelvin,

Actually, this is not a variation of kotegaeshi (this is no inward bending of the wrist to make the connection). Rather, it is variation of kokyo-nage or an otoshi (a drop) technique. Like you've said, most ppl use it when they fumble with their grips. But,this "variation" can be countered with a simple kaeshiwaza - uke stepping into the direction of the throw/drop.
I suppose I'll defer to others on the classification, although I don't like the idea of lumping it in with a bunch of other dissimilar techniques when it is clearly similar to kote gaeshi.

As far as the "simple" counter, just about any throw can be countered by simply taking a step in the proper direction, if it is applied ineffectively. If it is applied effectively, uke will be unable to move the foot he/she needs to take that step with. I think you are making a misleading implication by defining a poorly executed version of the throw as the throw, then dismissing it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2007, 06:11 PM   #44
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Is the inward turning of the wrist the basic element of kote gaishi? I've seen some shihan do this technique with only one hand, the hand on the wrist, no hand on top of uke's fingers. And yet uke goes flying. The technique then hinges on the inward turning of the forearm instead.

Maybe we shouldnt be such sticklers for certain physical details and look instead at the principle involved. After all, there are (Hombu-taught) variations of irimi nage that do not involve raising one arm in front of uke's face and cutting down.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2007, 11:37 AM   #45
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Is the inward turning of the wrist the basic element of kote gaishi? I've seen some shihan do this technique with only one hand, the hand on the wrist, no hand on top of uke's fingers. And yet uke goes flying. The technique then hinges on the inward turning of the forearm instead.
Hi Raul,
IMO, basically yes as kotegaeshi means that just that. I think you have to evaluate the consequence of the inward turning of the wrist follow by the dropping and manipulation of the uke's elbow. I believe that beginners should be taught this elementary first before attempting any variations or shortcuts. Elementary is about kuzushi (and I may add that kuzushi is an art by itself, same too for evasion); at a higher level, it is about feel, kokyu-ho and ki. This separates us students from the shihan.

Kevin,
Quote:
Kelvin Wilbanks wrote:
As far as the "simple" counter, just about any throw can be countered by simply taking a step in the proper direction, if it is applied ineffectively. If it is applied effectively, uke will be unable to move the foot he/she needs to take that step with. I think you are making a misleading implication by defining a poorly executed version of the throw as the throw, then dismissing it
We were refering to ppl who fumbled with their grips (thus rendering ineffective applications). Unless the uke has been trained to give charity falls as there are usually done in dance schools, no uke in his/her "right" frame of mind will just stand there waiting for the nage to adjust his/her grip and continue to offer a connection to be thrown, especially when it is going to be a nasty throw. Come to think about it, I sometime do give charity falls when partnered with a nasty and uncaring nage

Opps, that's more than my 2 sen.

Happy training

David Y
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2007, 12:20 PM   #46
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Kevin,

We were refering to ppl who fumbled with their grips (thus rendering ineffective applications). Unless the uke has been trained to give charity falls as there are usually done in dance schools, no uke in his/her "right" frame of mind will just stand there waiting for the nage to adjust his/her grip and continue to offer a connection to be thrown, especially when it is going to be a nasty throw. Come to think about it, I sometime do give charity falls when partnered with a nasty and uncaring nage

Opps, that's more than my 2 sen.

Happy training

David Y
Once again, you are turning this into a strawman by assuming improprieties are necessary to the throw. Missing an exact kote gaeshi grip doesn't mean uke is just standing there. The way I was taught, uke is generally stuck in the foot you said he/she should take a step with and led to a position of uncomfortable couching and unbalance with musubi hand/forearm connection before one actually grips in earnest. The whole point of going for the alternate grip is that you have an advantage and you need to do something with it before they regain balance and mobility. In the case of using it for an ikkyo reversal, the whole reason to apply it is that it is appropriate to movement and position of uke, not that they are just standing there and you decide to force it on them.

Also, I see no reason why ukemi for the alternate version is necessarily nasty and aversive. It does involve more torque and hitting the mat harder than most versions of kote gaeshi, but I consider it relatively easy and pleasant ukemi compared to many other throws.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2007, 10:07 PM   #47
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Hi Raul,
IMO, basically yes as kotegaeshi means that just that. I think you have to evaluate the consequence of the inward turning of the wrist follow by the dropping and manipulation of the uke's elbow. I believe that beginners should be taught this elementary first before attempting any variations or shortcuts. Elementary is about kuzushi (and I may add that kuzushi is an art by itself, same too for evasion); at a higher level, it is about feel, kokyu-ho and ki. This separates us students from the shihan.
Granted, that's the basic kote gaeshi, and no arguments there. I have no disagreement with you at the level of basics. What I am saying is that at the higher levels, it seems that kote is about using a grasp on the wrist to control the elbow and through the elbow the uke's center. The actual physical details of the grip become pretty flexible at this point, as long as that center to center connection is maintained.

For instance, its possible to do a kote variation even if the partner has made a fist and has stiffened his arm, as long as that connection is there. You keep a light but steady grip, cut down along the center line toward the elbow and step back. Uke has no choice but to follow because your center will bring his center along. I use this variation sometimes on juniors who get it into their heads to resist.

And the point my teacher likes to make is not to get fixated on the grip, because you tense up, your center will rise, and openings will be created. The same holds true for sankyo, nikyo, etc. Look for the center to center connection and other things fall into place.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2007, 10:45 AM   #48
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Granted, that's the basic kote gaeshi, and no arguments there. I have no disagreement with you at the level of basics. What I am saying is that at the higher levels, it seems that kote is about using a grasp on the wrist to control the elbow and through the elbow the uke's center. The actual physical details of the grip become pretty flexible at this point, as long as that center to center connection is maintained.

For instance, its possible to do a kote variation even if the partner has made a fist and has stiffened his arm, as long as that connection is there. You keep a light but steady grip, cut down along the center line toward the elbow and step back. Uke has no choice but to follow because your center will bring his center along. I use this variation sometimes on juniors who get it into their heads to resist.

And the point my teacher likes to make is not to get fixated on the grip, because you tense up, your center will rise, and openings will be created. The same holds true for sankyo, nikyo, etc. Look for the center to center connection and other things fall into place.
Hi Raul,

Agree absolutely.

Cheers

David Y
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Verbal Aikido: 7 Ways To Handle Difficult Customers" AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 15 02-11-2007 01:05 PM
Kotegaeshi as an expression of love dps General 28 08-30-2006 08:14 PM
Kotegaeshi in practice Richard Langridge "Off-The-Mat" 33 05-16-2006 06:33 AM
Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ura?? Terry Donaghe General 11 08-17-2005 12:14 PM
Tsuki kotegaeshi (Fulcrum leverage) Benjie Lu Techniques 6 03-28-2004 08:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:05 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate