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Old 12-29-2006, 10:02 PM   #451
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Mike and Eric and forum at large,
Out of curiosity have either of you seen/experienced technique from Okamoto Sensei of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai? If yes, I would be interested to hear your opinions of what he is doing.

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:21 PM   #452
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
OK, let's use ikkyo as an example... suwari-waza shomen uchi ikkyo... great way to feel the up-down contradictory tension, at least the way I do it.... AND... the harder uke pushes, the more they off-balance themselves.

YMMV...
I was having this conversation with a fellow today. Its hard to explain until they feel it that their attempts to throw with muscle results in them throwing themselves. Once felt it becomes a shared talking point that needs no futher explanation
There is a difference between that typical leading throw stuff and the more direct ones when they push or enter to grab and they load up their own structure as you connect to them. Its great for Judo or jujutsu. Its also a large contributory factor in "capture center on touch" of Daito ryu.
Of course there are many things to do with the captured effect, but that's a different discussion.
As well it can begin to differentiate the use of whole body power from the often seen Hiriki power use in Japanese arts.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-29-2006 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:03 PM   #453
Jorge Garcia
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
Mike and Eric and forum at large,
Out of curiosity have either of you seen/experienced technique from Okamoto Sensei of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai? If yes, I would be interested to hear your opinions of what he is doing.

Take care,

Mark J.
My comment would not be referencing any of the previous conversations but I would say that Okamoto Soshi works with small circles made by any and all parts of the body. He is usually in a natural stance so I would say he grounds himself and has little intentional tai sabaki except for perhaps an occasional small step. The end of the techniques though are important as well in that they usually drive toward the center of the person. Finally, the techniques are loaded with Aiki and require a lot of skill to execute consistently. Perhaps someone else can discuss the theme based on the discussion at hand and my comments can be an aid as a reference for the discussion.
Best wishes,
Jorge Garcia

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:41 PM   #454
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

It would be a mistake to look at the circles and get caught up in them. They are not what is driving the techniques-they are an after-effect. You can try the circles all day long and up with nothing for your efforts.....many do. Ask him to connect without completing a circle That'll be the end of that comparison. Comparing what you "see" to what is reall is tenuous at best. There are many things going on around a central theme.
You might as well look at push hands and call it shoving and go try that. The many jins Peng, lu, ji, an, etc. are all expressed in a way from one central theme...

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-29-2006 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 12-30-2006, 06:04 PM   #455
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hello Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Now imagine [Ueshiba's] ukes not doing that type of ukemi.
How much force do you think is "really" being applied by Ueshiba, folks?
What do you suppose that level of force would like if it were applied to students who were actually trained to have structure both in attack and defense? How would their bodies both generate force to begin with? And then, how would their properly trained bodies respond?
I remember a published account by the late Terry Dobson (cite unavailable, I apologize) in which he described taking ukemi for O-Sensei when O-Sensei did the "jo trick". As I recall the article, Dobson said he had seen O-Sensei do the trick before, and was unconvinced of the sincerity of the uke. Therefore, one day, when O-Sensei extended the stick (a bokken in the story), Dobson did not wait to be picked, but as soon as O-Sensei indicated that he needed uke, Dobson sprang up and charged full-speed at the bokken, fully intending to knock it out of the way. I believe the phrase Dobson used to describe what he felt when he made contact with O-Sensei's bokken was, "It was like running into a brick wall."

What would you criticize about Dobson's ukemi in that instance? It does not seem to me that he was being "duped". Further, if I remember correctly, the incident took place a while after Dobson began his aikido training --- long enough for him to be more than a completely clueless beginner.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Picture Ueshiba trying to do that to the Shioda that appeared in his later videos?
What would trained structure of the uke bring into the mix?
Who is being trained .....exactly.. to do what?
Why can you be trained to start to do these things in a short time, yet no one is?
Who doesn't even know, and was never taught to begin with?
Who is being duped into years long apprentiships playing crash test dummy hoping for the "goods?"
Maybe..... there is another way?
In the end why would anyone ....ever...train to "react" like that?
As Lee Salzman said, I'd like to see some discussion of how you (and others) train people to do "these things". Based on my experience in Uechi-ryu karatedo, I agree that it does not take a very long time to become relatively immoveable in a hand-to-hand context. But unfortunately, it is also quite easy to become unresponsive (and hence too slow) in contexts in which movement is necessary.

As for why someone "can you be trained to start to do these things in a short time, yet no one is", what has your experience been with your students? Do most of them "get it", or not? If not, why not? In my experience, solo training is challenging for many aikidoka because it lacks the social structure that they are seeking when they decide to pursue aikido. But those who stick with some form of solo practice experience improvement in their aikido. This is not surprising. Most of O-Sensei's more accomplished students came to him with other martial training, and many of them continued that training while studying aikido.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As I've said for decades "Want to "really" watch a martial arts demonstration and see." Watch the attacks, not the person doing his schtick.
I agree with you completely. That is why, whenever I take ukemi for Saotome-sensei or Ikeda-sensei, I attack as if my karatedo teachers are watching. They (S. and I.) seem to like it.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
A better uke would be a better Nage.
Again, I agree with you.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
A better Nage is all about taking ukemi and remaning standing.
And what you do in order too better receive is all about you training you...not doing things to them.
Well, this reminds me of another story, told in a class taught by Dan Messisco of Aikido of Modesto. Dan M. is fluent in Japanese, and at the time of this story, he lived in Hawaii and spent every other month in Tokyo training at the Aikikai Hombu. One day, his training partner was a young, strong sandan or yondan on the Hombu "instructor track". As Dan described their interaction, every time that Dan was nage, the Japanese fellow stopped Dan's technique cold. Dan was getting frustrated, but the he had a realization: by "trying to do technique to his partner, he was attacking his partner, and since he was attacking, then he, Dan M., must be uke.

So every time the Japanese fellow stopped Dan M.'s technique, Dan would take ukemi! After a few minutes of this, the Japanese fellow became quite angry, and sputtered, "Stop doing that! I want to take ukemi!"

Dan replied in the most elegant Japanese he could muster, "Who is preventing you from doing so?"

Jim

Last edited by Jim Sorrentino : 12-30-2006 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 12-30-2006, 10:43 PM   #456
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Jim,
Hasn't there been a lot of discussion about bodyskill training methods already? I mean, we've had quite a few threads on the topic.
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Old 12-31-2006, 10:45 AM   #457
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
Jim,
Hasn't there been a lot of discussion about bodyskill training methods already? I mean, we've had quite a few threads on the topic.
He doesn't know or "get" these things, Tim. His comments on his Karate training providing him with an "understanding" that immovability leads to unresponsiveness and slowness? Well….what's there to say? It helps us understand where he's coming from. Also why it's pointless to keep repeating everything over and over.
His reply is either intentionally disingenuous or it just innocently expresses a total lack of understanding of these skills. They were odd observations and questions for a teacher who "claims" -his- teachers not only know these skills but also teach them openly.


Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-31-2006 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 12-31-2006, 01:49 PM   #458
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hi Tim,
Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
Hasn't there been a lot of discussion about bodyskill training methods already? I mean, we've had quite a few threads on the topic.
Sure. And yet, there is still interest.
Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
The question for the forum at large is how do you or your system teach/train an individual to become relaxed? Is there a specific method or is it simply a hope that over time the student will relax? What drills or exercises are explicitly used for the purpose of teaching relaxation and it's powers?
Mark, you started the thread --- do you believe that you have received sufficient answers to these questions?

Unlike Rob John, neither Dan nor Mike have systematically described (and illustrated with video), here on AikiWeb, what they do. I don't believe it's disingenuous to ask, occasionally, that someone who states that "people can be trained to do these things in a short time, yet no one is," back it up with some rational discussion of his methodology. Dan has said, more than once, that he would enjoy "talking shop". Well, I'm listening.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
He doesn't know or "get" these things, Tim. His comments on his Karate training providing him with an "understanding" that immovability leads to unresponsiveness and slowness? Well….what's there to say? It helps us understand where he's coming from. Also why it's pointless to keep repeating everything over and over.
His reply is either intentionally disingenuous or it just innocently expresses a total lack of understanding of these skills. They were odd observations and questions for a teacher who "claims" -his- teachers not only know these skills but also teach them openly.
Dan, please go back and re-read what I wrote. (After all, I try not to misquote you, or mischaracterize your statements.) Specifically, I said that it was my experience that the kind of immoveability I sometimes achieved and saw in Uechi-ryu could, sometimes, lead to unresponsiveness and slowness.

And, Dan, how about answering my question about your opinion of Dobson's experience as uke for O-Sensei when O-Sensei perfomred the "jo trick"? Since you have said more than once that most people taking ukemi for 8th dan are "dupes", I think it's fair to ask you to discuss an example of someone who, it seems to me, was not a dupe.

Happy New Year! See you on the mat eventually, I hope.

Jim
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Old 12-31-2006, 01:57 PM   #459
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

<sigh> Since I'm responsible for the story - I think - and in any event, have heard it first hand, let's get that part right. Terry said that Ueshiba would never call him out for ukemi for the "jo trick" And he therefore thought it was a scam, that the loyal Japanese uke were just making the old man look good. So one time, with three guys pushing, he jumped up, and threw a flying cross-body block on the backs of the three guys pushing. And bounced off. Which leads to at least two conclusions: 1) That Ueshiba seeing him coming, grounded with the legendary skill attributed to Yang Cheng Fu when he was hit by a rickshaw man at full run and the latter bounced off, tipping himself and his passengers on the ground, or further, "pulsed" - not in the direct way as with Shioda doing it with chest or back directly facing the uke - but ostensibly sideways. Whew! 2) the uke were all braced themselves with full force and consciousness so as NOT to put any power on the old man that would tip him over, breaking his bones and resulting in their death by assasination by old right wing cronies of the old man - and it was THEY who embodied the ground force/path.

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 12-31-2006 at 02:00 PM.

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Old 12-31-2006, 02:04 PM   #460
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hi Ellis,
Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
<sigh> Since I'm responsible for the story - I think - and in any event, have heard it first hand, let's get that part right.
Thanks!

Jim
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Old 12-31-2006, 02:10 PM   #461
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
<sigh> Since I'm responsible for the story - I think - and in any event, have heard it first hand, let's get that part right. Terry said that Ueshiba would never call him out for ukemi for the "jo trick" And he therefore thought it was a scam, that the loyal Japanese uke were just making the old man look good. So one time, with three guys pushing, he jumped up, and threw a flying cross-body block on the backs of the three guys pushing. And bounced off. Which leads to at least two conclusions: 1) That Ueshiba seeing him coming, grounded with the legendary skill attributed to Yang Cheng Fu when he was hit by a rickshaw man at full run and the latter bounced off, tipping himself and his passengers on the ground, or further, "pulsed" - not in the direct way as with Shioda doing it with chest or back directly facing the uke - but ostensibly sideways. Whew! 2) the uke were all braced themselves with full force and consciousness so as NOT to put any power on the old man that would tip him over, breaking his bones and resulting in their death by assasination by old right wing cronies of the old man - and it was THEY who embodied the ground force/path.
Well, that didn't settle much of anything. If Dobson hit the guys pushing, he didn't feel the jo, he felt the postures of the guys pushing. The real problem is that there are several videos of that stunt out there and none of them show Ueshiba convincingly holding any real force for any appreciable time. Period. Yet when *one* person is pushing on Ueshiba's head in seiza, he holds it plenty long enough to be able to see he can really do it.... albeit with some wavering, etc., even though it is only one person pushing on his head.

Incidentally, the Yang Cheng Fu story had more to do with an automatic chieh jing (receiving jin... an aspect of the same jin we're talking about in a lot of these posts) where an incoming force is automatically absorbed and bounced out, just like Ueshiba shows in the videoclip I cited in an earlier post.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:08 PM   #462
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:
Unlike Rob John, neither Dan nor Mike have systematically described (and illustrated with video), here on AikiWeb, what they do.
Well, not wanting to be too much painted by the broad brush, I'd suggest that I've printed more "how to" information on this stuff in the last 2+ years than anyone else in the history of the forum.

Bear in mind that a lot of my motivation is more along the lines of providing information specifically to the people like a younger me that was looking for information sources on how to do this stuff. In my Aikido heyday, there was no information and it was very frustrating. I KNEW there was such a thing as this strength and pretty much all I got was poo-poo's from the "experts" in the Aikido community.

On a realistic level, I realize that putting this information out is still only going to affect or be useful to a very limited number in the Aikido (or other m.a.'s) community, so I'm not driven by the unrealistic thoughts of mass conversions.

Doing Aikido with these correct kinds of core strength is like going to heaven; everyone want to do it.... but not yet.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-31-2006, 04:15 PM   #463
Moses
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Doing Aikido with these correct kinds of core strength is like going to heaven; everyone want to do it.... but not yet.
Reminds me of a similar Zen saying,
"the number of hairs on a bull, is the number of people seeking enlightenment; the number of horns, is the number of people who find it"

Moses
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Old 01-01-2007, 04:27 AM   #464
Moses
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hey, to everybody . . . . Happy New Year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Moses
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Old 01-01-2007, 04:39 AM   #465
Mike Galante
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Essentially the idea is that any movement comes from the "center" (hara, tanden, dantien, "One Point", "Field of Cinnabar", whatever). So the ground, via direct vector forces up the legs, supplies the "solidity of the Earth"; the weight/gravity supplies the power in the other direction. Both of these powers reside in the middle for us to access. The trick, though, is to get these powers unhindered out to the rest of the body. It's getting these powers out to the hands, feet, or anywhere on the body that starts the discussion about "relaxation".
Mike:

I have to respectfully disagree with one important point here.

You have described the forces from the earth, essentially gravitational. Correct? But, you have not mentioned anything about the inner "spiritual forces" acting.
If one views only the body and its relation to the earth, one neglects the essential dynamic which Usheiba emphasized. That is that we, as practitioners of his art, are creating heaven on earth, and uniting human beings as one family, right?

So what happened to heaven?

The unseen forces both of the earth and of the heavens is what i am talking about. The most common reference is the Kundalini. The sleeping serpent energy rising up the spine.
At the top of the head, the Chinese acupuncture point at the crown is "gate of heaven",
If you watch osensei closely in some of his videos, he is reaching skyward with his sword, quite often. You will also see him scribe an imaginary circle above his head and then make a piercing strike, in the center of it. One cannot convince me that he is practicing a practical martial technique.
No, In my humble opinion, he is piercing the heavens, to start a flow. He may be piercing (energetically speaking) his own crown chakra from that perspective, who knows.
I have had extensive experience with kundalini yoga for over 30 years. Powers of ki, when uniting heaven and earth within a human being is a sight to behold.
I am sorry to be so forthright, but usheiba is, very much misunderstood, and I think, because he was surrounded by martians (people ruled by mars) from earlier years, they tend to be preoccupied with the martial aspects of aikido and neglect the spiritual. Just my humble opinion.
What i am trying to say is that the realized usheiba, filled with ki, from above and rooted below, like a great tree, is what made him so stable, and so invincible. Difficult to understand from a mechanical point of view.
Look at the photos, and videos, where he is reaching skyward with his bokken. He looks like he is drawing down (tuning in) the heavenly forces to me, anyway.
I do not claim to understand these things completely, but I would like to see more deep meditation, and even kototama practice to open up to these deep energies and increase them, so that then we can begin to understand what usheiba had to say.
The chakras above the waist are what makes us human. The Tanden unites the upper with the lower energy centers, then we can be more complete as aikidoists, and as humans.

The only way these more subtle forces can flow in a person is in a relaxed state.

God help me if I am being presumptuous

VERY VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ONE AND ALL,

Mike Galante
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Old 01-01-2007, 06:11 AM   #466
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Mr. Galante, if this spiritual power has as a necessary precondition physical training (much as does yoga) and perhaps it can be argued that original yoga and the practices which the Indian influence spread via China and Korea to Japan have at their core a similar goal in terms of what they want to achieve with the human body, then there is a relationship between spiritual and martial power (or that in other pursuits commonly known as art forms in Asia), is there not? So what we in aikido and other Asian martial arts are interested in are the specific training methods to achieve this. People like Mike Sigman and others have not forgotten about heaven, if you read the many posts on these topics. I am sure your point of view based on your experience is very interesting especially in as far as the methods Ueshiba used relate to practices you are familiar with in yoga. So we should be able to enjoy a good discussion on this topic. A happy new year to you too. Regards, Gernot
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Old 01-01-2007, 06:53 AM   #467
Upyu
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Michele Galante wrote:

<snip>
But, you have not mentioned anything about the inner "spiritual forces" acting.
<snip>
So what happened to heaven?
<snip>
One cannot convince me that he is practicing a practical martial technique.
No, In my humble opinion, he is piercing the heavens, to start a flow. He may be piercing (energetically speaking) his own crown chakra from that perspective, who knows.
<snip>
Thought I'd comment on this...
I'd wouldn't say your explanation is wrong (from my own experiences, it's definitely one "way" of looking at it,) but I would say that Mike hasn't forgotten the "spiritual" component, it's just that that perspective goes hand in hand with doing these skills.

As for the "what happened to heaven", portion I think you mean "what happened to man". Since "man" is united between Heaven and Earth (conceptually speaking)

As for Ueshiba practicing Martial Technique.
Dude, that qiqong he's doing IS the martial technique, and it's what Mike, Dan etc have been saying for quite awhile now.

I myself don't necessarily practice "martial technique", but simply different ways of conditioning/connecting the body properly and I find the techniques present themselves in a pretty straightforward manner. Practicing those qiqong/body skill developmental exercises whether in single exercises or in Kata practice hardwire the body skill into your body which then create "real technique" or "Jutsu." That kind of practice necessarily requires that you develop all the "spiritual" junk that you claimed Mike "missed."
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Old 01-01-2007, 10:39 AM   #468
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Michele Galante wrote:
You have described the forces from the earth, essentially gravitational. Correct? But, you have not mentioned anything about the inner "spiritual forces" acting.
If one views only the body and its relation to the earth, one neglects the essential dynamic which Usheiba emphasized. That is that we, as practitioners of his art, are creating heaven on earth, and uniting human beings as one family, right?
Hi Mike:

No, just to be clear, I have mentioned the forces of both heaven and earth, since those are the dichotomy of forces we have to work with. You either power a movement from pushing off the ground in some direction or by using gravity. Yin-Yang. (By the way, this ultimate Yin-Yang for all things is considered the primordial beginning, the "grand ultimate" of all things.... it is called the "Tai Chi"). Before "Tai Chi" there was a great nothingness called "Wuji". "Wuji" is the basis for the "Way" of all things harmonized.

Without going any further, consider just Wuji which becomes Tai Chi. How many of the Asian arts and philosophies refer to making all things One again, of creating a "harmony" rather than a divisiveness? Most of the philosophies and religions have to do essentially with trying to remove the line that divides Yin and Yang and making all things One again. Movement returns to stillness and all things come together as One. Heard that before? Notice that this basic line of thought recurs in almost all the Asian religions and philosophies. And it is also the basis for what you're calling "spiritual".

From Wuji comes Tai Chi (also spelled "Taiji" in Pinyin). The Tao te Ching says, "Tao gives birth to one, one creates two, and two creates three. Three gives birth to the ten thousand things." From nothing comes the dichotomy, like the basic forces of the earth and gravity, and from those basic forces all other things evolve. In the case of Aikido, Taiji, Xingyi, and many other martial arts, all the techniques are considered to be just a manifestation of the basic forces which we are in the middle of and which we manipulate.

We either manipulate forces with our limbs and normal forces in the joints to do "many Aikido techniques" or we utilize these "natural" forces of the universe to blend with the forces of an opponent in a way which makes his forces simply a part of the forces we spontaneously generate. The second method is the desired method of "Aiki" and it conforms with the idea of resolving a dichotomy of forces back into One. That is harmony. Is it no "spiritual" enough for you?

The many conversations we've been having about these ki/kokyu skills is really a discussion about whether Aikido should be based on the "natural" skills/forces of ki/kokyu or whether it's really a compendium of "techniques" with a subtle "philosophy" of avoiding conflict. I say it's the much deeper art based on the famous natural powers of the cosmos.
Quote:
God help me if I am being presumptuous
Hey.... who's more spiritual than you???

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:03 AM   #469
Mike Galante
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Thumbs down Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Agreed,
Let us become nothing. In the stillness all things are born, including Aikido "techniques".

Of course the term spiritual is an inadequate term. My astrology teacher said that spiritual practice was a misnomer, and that evolution of the soul was a better term. The "soul" being less perfect than the spirit. But that is another system altogether.

My Kundalini teacher said that we are becoming nothing.

Nakazono said the sound I (eeee) resonates with the "highest achievement" the level of the world teacher. He emphasized Izanami and Izanagi, again as you said, the spiral, dual, nature of the manifest life force itself bridging between uke and nage.
We could go on and on. And on and on .........''

I just like to stimulate talk of these things. I am tired of hearing only about the physical world of self preservation called self-defense. My only point was there are other centers, the human centers above the waist which should be active as well. You understand.

Nice post,

Happy New Year and all the best to you and yours,
Mike
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Old 01-01-2007, 12:32 PM   #470
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Well I consider myself to be a spiritual man. Even seriously so.
and it does affect my budo on every level.
But is has nothing to do with the rationale of body training in heaven/man/earth as I see it.
On one level I will tell you that
Earth represents use of earth-in re-bound, projection and ground strength
On another I'd say
Heaven is meant to represent the gravitational effects of heavy weighting, compressing and down-power
All of these created, driven and controlled by?
Man representing the mind turning my body, rotational sprialing within my body, compressing and projecting the breath and a control of in/out... up/down...draw and expand forces.

Sorry to be so practical, but I believe that it was indeed what Ueshiba was doing and his own "vision" took off from there.
But don't be fooled.....
It was Takeda's Budo which allowed Ueshiba his vision. Which is why Ueshiba said "Takeda opened my eyes to true Budo."
Without Takeda no Aikido
WIthout AIkido we may never have heard of Takeda

I've said it before I'll say it again.
Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, and Ueshiba were all power houses
Their power enabled them to realize they could be, for all practical purposes, unstoppable by the training methods and attack styles of their day. It made a light bulb go off only in Ueshiba that this could somehow be so joyous an experience (well it is allot of fun) that it would help unit people of the world.
I'll leave that vision alone, but I understand why these skills can power that type of vision. Personally I think there are better ways to serve mankind.
In the end no one really has to worry about it getting out there and being revealed to the world. Its placed in the hands of thousands of men...who still can't use it. Why? They don't train it they just want to fight.
In the end.
No AIki age no Daito ryu
No Peng jin no Taiji
No Kokyu no AIkido
And as Sagawa said.
"Think!!"

Happy new year
Dan
cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-01-2007 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 01-01-2007, 01:50 PM   #471
Mike Galante
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Cool Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
In the end no one really has to worry about it getting out there and being revealed to the world. Its placed in the hands of thousands of men...who still can't use it. Why? They don't train it they just want to fight.
In the end.
No Aiki age no Daito ryu
No Peng jin no Taiji
No Kokyu no Aikido
And as Sagawa said.
"Think!!"
Nicely put, Dan.

I guess you are right, the mars people can't give up fighting, and I (jupiter) can't seem to give up preaching!

All the very best, happy new year,
Mike
Maybe we can practice together sometime.

Last edited by Mike Galante : 01-01-2007 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 01-01-2007, 01:57 PM   #472
Cady Goldfield
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Michele Galante wrote:
Nicely put, Dan.

I guess you are right, the mars people can't give up fighting, and I (jupiter) can't seem to give up preaching!

All the very best, happy new year,
Mike
Personally, I'm more concerned about those of youse guys who have yer head up (uranus).

Sorry, couldn't resist...
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Old 01-01-2007, 03:31 PM   #473
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Cady you never miss one do ya?

So, I was just talking with a friend of mine and I said something he tought was true.
Those of us who do MMA are frequently categorized as having "disrespect" for martial arts. Yet here is he and I ...IN very traditional arts. In fact many who do MMA were or are still "IN" traditional martial arts. Maybe we are the ones who have the highest respect for them after all. Loving them and training to ressurect them to their highest, tested levels.
Why is it that almost all of our Japanese greats were in fact?.......fighters who trained in several different styles and faught?
They were in fact
Mixed Martial Martists of THEIR day who founded their own styles.
Yet here we are with many in the Traditional arts openly slamming those who do the very same thing. You see and read it everwhere on many boards
What would those greats be doing were they alive?
I'd bet most would be looking at the mess we have made of their arts and walking out the door.


Also about body training and the point of the thread
Why is it you can talk about Body building and how it increases ways to lift more weight and everyone says ..Of course
Talk about body building to make a body that handles other loads by being relaxed and connected against horizontal loads most seen in fighting and ways to generate power and they have trouble grasping that concept? Even telling you you're nuts?

Worse yet how about a double whammy?
MMA and Internal Skills?
Disrespectful...and.... crazy
There is a small growing group of men interested in internal skills in MMA (who's been doing that for years?) and they....are getting slammed for that as well by some in the CMA. Weird, and inexplicable mindset for martial artists to have I think

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-01-2007 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 01-01-2007, 05:00 PM   #474
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Belated response to M. Galante: Over on Aikido Journal, I posted something in my essay: "A Unified Field Theory - Aiki and Weapons - Il Crepuscolo degli dei" http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2384

It speaks for itself (heck, I speak for myself - I'm quoting myself!) but to add to this. Ueshiba's actions were multi-layered, I believe. That which generated spiritual power was different from yoga, per se, in that it was also explicitly martial. Not only could the moves take you to Heaven, but would empower you to fight your way in if they tried to block the door.

Quote:
A little additional comment is in order. I just had a fine afternoon trading stories and information with Fred Little. Part one of what follows is his observation, part two is mine.

1. As some may know, Ueshiba saw himself as imbued by the kami Susano-o, the "wind god," who was a combination of a trickster and Prometheus. Rather than cite a particular myth twice, I'll paraphrase/quote Fred here. "When Ueshiba was doing the upward and downward spirals in his jo form, that upward thrust is like a tornado spirally up into heaven, like Susano-o using his spear to stab the repository of all the rice, hoarded by Heaven, and then the downward expanding spiral as he spreads it over the world. I don't think he was emulating this - he was, at that moment, Susano-o."

2. I think there is no doubt that Ueshiba practiced a kind of voodun - spirit possession. In Shingon mikkyo, one meditates on the image of a Buddha/diety, one takes it into oneself, one places it outside oneself - all with the goal of controlling the mind that manages that experience and images AND to see through to the emptiness of even this kind of phenomena - that divinity, even the Buddha, is a product of mind. However, Ueshiba's later practice was Chinkon-kishin, which is, Shingon in reverse. One creates and BECOMES the deity. Note the story by Takahashi Mariye, describing Ueshiba calling up/dealing with an unruly diety. Some readers may roll their eyes, thinking this some sort of mountebank show. I don't agree. Ueshiba was profoundly religious. I do think that the spiritual practice he inherited from Deguchi, where one is, in a sense, taken possession by the god or becomes them (is "ridden" as is said in Haiti), lends itself to grandiosity.

That commentary aside, I am very curious - though surely I will never have it answered - about what the rest of the jo form meant to Ueshiba, aside from the martial acts and internal training I've previously described. What symbolic import - what myth was he embodying after his liberation of the bounty of Heaven and spreading it all over the earth? Was he righteously "slaying" injustice or obstructions that would impede the unification of Heaven and Earth through man, or was he purifying himself internally - the internal training/shaking/etc., a kind of misogi that had a corollary of making him yet stronger?
Best
Ellis Amdur

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Old 01-01-2007, 05:03 PM   #475
Cady Goldfield
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Vision is restricted when you're in a box.

How are MMArtists disrespectful to traditional systems? With the exception of the "Master of 10-arts-in-1" boobs, serious MMArtists all seem to have come from traditional roots, and that's where they received the very discipline and values that urged them to explore the world beyond.

To assume that only one system, from one tradition, possesses all of the answers, is to deny a basic human principle: that the spirit of inquiry transcends cultures and individual disciplines. I don't expect to get all of my knowledge from a single art. I would rather have access to the body of human knowledge that spans continents and eras. If there is stuff we can pick up from Kundalini, or taiji, or an ancient Japanese koryu that makes my skills more powerful, efficient and effective, then let us at it. Make a long, deep study -- not a quick riffling through of the prospectus -- of each and find not only what we need, but how it complements and ties in to what we already have and know. It's not piecemeal, it's the intelligent assembly of a body of knowledge that ultimately will be greater than the sum of its parts.

No artist arrived at his pinnacle from a vaccum. He built his skills and foundation on the shoulders of his traditional predecessors, and received his structure and sense of discipline from them, then transcended their visions as he followed his own. Think about Picasso (who mastered traditional portraiture and rendering before entering the abstract) and Stravinsky (whose music was once considered obscene), both of whom fought within the constraints of their traditional artistic upbringings, ultimately breaking free with their own unique styles while always respecting and never damning the classical roots from which they came. After the public's initial shock at the unorthodox new visions, yesterday's iconoclasts have since become today's accepted mainstream.

I see the visionaries of "our" arts -- Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, et al. -- in the same light. They were the MMArtists of their day, as was noted. They were driven by their own burning curiosity, beliefs and desires to pursue their own unique visions for how they wanted themselves, and their arts, to be, but never damned the traditional foundations from which they came.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-01-2007 at 05:15 PM.
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