Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-16-2006, 09:05 PM   #101
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote:
FWIW I believe Shaner sensei has been very involved in retranslating alot of Tohei sensei's writings, which is exciting for me anyway because I very much appreciate Shaner sensei's clarity.
Hi Joe:

Well, I'm happy to hear that. I'd almost like to talk to him as he does it, because I have some questions which I think might help add more perspective to the translations. A lot of the things he said were (IMO) his concept of what Tohei was trying to say, but oftentimes those things were also ancient Chinese classical sayings and I got the impression he wasn't aware of that.
Quote:
So an observation that I'm coming to is that if the four basic principles, for instance, are there for beginners and they are somehow overly vague, we definitely have a problem, don't we?
Yes, that's true. On the other hand, the Ki Society seems (IMO) to be altogether a lot closer to the ki/kokyu skills than any other faction. Win some, lose some.
Quote:
And to Mr. Sigman, I can't remember if I worked with a Mike from Durango or not, but I was wondering if you had any plans or aspirations to attend the Aikido Summit in Denver in March? I've enjoyed your posts for some time now, and would enjoy talking with you in person.
Heh. You were about the first person I worked with and I wasn't sure how much to show and I tried to go along with the Ki Society visualizations to some extent to see how they worked. Big, older guy. You tried to push my chest in a "test" and then you immediately switched to pushing my back with the other hand when it didn't work. Then I tried the Ki Society visualization of attention to the top of my head and I didn't fall over so easily ... but, I would suggest that the problem was mine because my instincts overrode the initial attempts; just like a beginner can't do a lot of things because their instincts are so set. It works two ways, this learning of something new, eh?

I didn't realize there was an Aikido Summit in March, Joe. My curiosity, as I said, was to hear someone of Shaner's background talk and demo his interpretations of what Tohei Sensei meant and I was more than rewarded for the effort of going to the workshop. I enjoyed it. I'm not sure that I have a lot of curiosity for anything more at the moment, but I'll think about it. I enjoyed the people from your school, BTW. Seriously. Good group.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 07:31 AM   #102
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, I'm happy to hear that. I'd almost like to talk to him as he does it, because I have some questions which I think might help add more perspective to the translations. A lot of the things he said were (IMO) his concept of what Tohei was trying to say, but oftentimes those things were also ancient Chinese classical sayings and I got the impression he wasn't aware of that. Yes, that's true.
Mike,

You keep saying this, but looking at Shaner Sensei's bio,
http://www.easternkifederation.com/shaner_sensei.htm ,
that doesn't seem to be a good assumption. At the very least he must have academic colleagues that are steeped in the Chinese classics.

The fact that in Tohei Sensei's bios he makes explicit reference to being well versed in Chinese classics (my memory is that he talks about this particularly when in his experiences in WWII.) Also Will Reed's second book has lists of Chinese proverbs in the back with a discussion of what Tohei Sensei agrees with and what he does not agree with etc. So it would be hard to believe that Shaner Sensei who has even more academic background the Will Reed would not have a good understanding of Tohei Sensei's references to Chinese classics. Even I knew Tohei Sensei had a fondness for Chinese classics and my Japanese fluency is pitiful.

I think you would need to have had a specific conversation.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 09:02 AM   #103
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
You keep saying this, but looking at Shaner Sensei's bio,
http://www.easternkifederation.com/shaner_sensei.htm ,
that doesn't seem to be a good assumption. At the very least he must have academic colleagues that are steeped in the Chinese classics.

The fact that in Tohei Sensei's bios he makes explicit reference to being well versed in Chinese classics (my memory is that he talks about this particularly when in his experiences in WWII.) Also Will Reed's second book has lists of Chinese proverbs in the back with a discussion of what Tohei Sensei agrees with and what he does not agree with etc. So it would be hard to believe that Shaner Sensei who has even more academic background the Will Reed would not have a good understanding of Tohei Sensei's references to Chinese classics. Even I knew Tohei Sensei had a fondness for Chinese classics and my Japanese fluency is pitiful.

I think you would need to have had a specific conversation.
I should have been more clear, Craig.. my fault. I meant classical sayings *in regard to internal strength*. I see many books in relation to Chinese martial arts and invariably the ones who include these quotes are Chinese martial artists who also have some degree of formal training. Westerners will only include a few of these sayings, etc., when they borrow them from Chinese writitngs they're sure of. I.e., there is a culture of the old sayings and it is not something I'm aware of any westerner having an in-depth knowledge of.

So yes, Shaner may have friends that know some Chinese classical sayings, but it is the specific ones that have to do with internal strength skills that I'm talking about. Unless they had these skills, had been trained in certain ways, etc., they wouldn't know what the remarks refer to.

Listening to Shaner, I felt pretty strongly that he was not aware that he was into an interesting subject matter that had to do with the things "those in the know about ki expertise will say these things". O-Sensei quite obviously did the same thing in his writings. It's a common merit-badge sort of thing to do in Asia and it has been for many centuries. Often I will toss a book aside when I realize that an author (Chinese) is doing nothing more than showing that he's part of the in-crowd by blabbing the pointer sayings while telling me nothing useable in terms of new information.

Incidentally, I've tried to make this clear in some past posts, but I don't think that Will Reed really understands the mechanics of the Ki things, based on writings of his I've seen. So as a source, I'm not all that receptive to his ideas. Sure he may be right on a number of things, but he's missed some basic ones pretty cleanly.

Regards,

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 12-17-2006 at 09:04 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 09:21 AM   #104
Joe Jutsu
Dojo: Currently relocating
Location: On the Road, USA
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 100
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hello again Mike!

Well, I'm glad I did get to meet you, but am sorry I didn't realize it at the time! Maybe I should have realised it, when I encountered the very grounded "beginner" who had a tough time visualizing the top of is head! As for testing you from behind, well that's something Tsubaki sensei does to me all the time.... I wasn't trying to be obstinate, I was just making sure you were stable, and you most certainly were!

Craig beat me to a point that I forgot to bring up, that being that Shaner sensei is a professor of Eastern philosphy at Furman University, and he most definitely understands more about Chinese philosophy than me anyway, without being steeped in Chinese martial arts.... So I don't know, he might know more about the Chinese origins of some of the phrases that he was illustrating than he explicitly explained, but I guess we'd have to ask him. (Sensei is actually very approachable...)

Anyway, I guess it might have been by my suggestion that you attended the seminar and I'm glad that you found it worthwhile. Food for thought is never bad, no? It's unfortunate that you didn't get the opportunity to take ukemi for Shaner sensei. I read your post where you said that often times all you have to do is shake hands with someone and you can feel there presence which I agree with, but at the same time I feel the proof is in the puddin'. Something that Edgar, the Aikikai instructor at the Denver Aikido dojo and a swell dude btw, said to me kind of stuck. He was impressed that Shaner sensei didn't display what he called "sensei power." What he meant is that he was impressed with sensei's ability to really throw even when contested, and by consistently calling non-ki society folk up to be his uke he (IMO) took away any opportunity to call "bullshit"....

I'm glad that you enjoyed working with the people from my school, we all have much to learn but we are very fortunate to have Tsubaki sensei among others to help us on the path. Thanks for indulging this dreadlocked aikido beginner, and please consider that Aikido Summit. It will not be overly represented by Ki Society folk, but that's what I'm looking forward to. Just trying to make sure the "blinders" aren't permanently taking over.

Joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 10:05 AM   #105
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote:
Well, I'm glad I did get to meet you, but am sorry I didn't realize it at the time! Maybe I should have realised it, when I encountered the very grounded "beginner" who had a tough time visualizing the top of is head! As for testing you from behind, well that's something Tsubaki sensei does to me all the time.... I wasn't trying to be obstinate, I was just making sure you were stable, and you most certainly were!
Hi Joe:

Well, I was a little surprised that you had me put my feet parallel and close together to test me... not because it bothered me, but I know from experience that no real beginner can do those sorts of things so I was thinking there must be an easier way to start out a beginner in Ki Society. Is there? If we ever meet again, remind me to show you the stages I lead a beginner through so that he can do many of these test things fairly well in just a few weeks... a trade for you showing me how you guys teach beginners.

Yeah, when you tried to sneakily catch me from behind, you jolted me because I was trying to stay incognito and I knew that my automatic stability from the back with my feet close together and parallel had probably just blown my cover. I halfway expected you to blow the whistle on me at that point. Remember, it was at the beginning of the workshop and I was antsy about staying in the role of know-nothing white-belt. You had just caught me in the opening moves of the workshop, so I was a bit bothered.

Incidentally, Tsubaki Sensei somehow knew I was a ringer. From the very first, before we did much of anything, I caught him watching me. First legitimate chance he got, and once obviously on Saturday, he came up an pushed on me to gauge me. My hat tip to him. Much sharper than he lets on.
Quote:
Craig beat me to a point that I forgot to bring up, that being that Shaner sensei is a professor of Eastern philosphy at Furman University, and he most definitely understands more about Chinese philosophy than me anyway, without being steeped in Chinese martial arts.... So I don't know, he might know more about the Chinese origins of some of the phrases that he was illustrating than he explicitly explained, but I guess we'd have to ask him. (Sensei is actually very approachable...)
I know what you're both saying and my only response is that this is actually a somewhat complicated discussion that I only wanted to make a passing comment on as something people like you and Craig might use as a datum in your future thoughts.
Quote:
Anyway, I guess it might have been by my suggestion that you attended the seminar and I'm glad that you found it worthwhile. Food for thought is never bad, no? It's unfortunate that you didn't get the opportunity to take ukemi for Shaner sensei. I read your post where you said that often times all you have to do is shake hands with someone and you can feel there presence which I agree with, but at the same time I feel the proof is in the puddin'. Something that Edgar, the Aikikai instructor at the Denver Aikido dojo and a swell dude btw, said to me kind of stuck. He was impressed that Shaner sensei didn't display what he called "sensei power." What he meant is that he was impressed with sensei's ability to really throw even when contested, and by consistently calling non-ki society folk up to be his uke he (IMO) took away any opportunity to call "bullshit"....
Well, I thought I mentioned that I did get to feel him when he worked briefly with me. Taking a throw wasn't needed after that. Heck, I could even gauge where you were when you were working with me, but we didn't throw each other.

This thing of stopping throws has been dealt with in other threads. I don't think much of it... practice demonstrations are not real fights, so it is a meaningless discussion in terms of it being a "contest". Essentially, stopping a throw is just an adjunct of doing what you and I tested where you ran into the solid ground wherever you pushed me. Instead of just presenting you with the solid ground, I would present you with a "hole" so that you were powerless; therefore you cannot throw. Understand? If you watch some of the videos by Shioda, there is one where he demonstrates how his ki always takes someones throw into a hole. It's a very good vid.
Quote:
I'm glad that you enjoyed working with the people from my school, we all have much to learn but we are very fortunate to have Tsubaki sensei among others to help us on the path. Thanks for indulging this dreadlocked aikido beginner, and please consider that Aikido Summit. It will not be overly represented by Ki Society folk, but that's what I'm looking forward to. Just trying to make sure the "blinders" aren't permanently taking over.
Well, I enjoyed just being around Tsubaki Sensei. He gave off a good aura.

BTW, when Tsubaki Sensei came up and gave me a good test as I was walking around in the wrist-exercise thing we did, he got a pretty good gauge of me but I got a pretty good gauge of him through the forces he applied (I could back-read to his center). The point is this: Do you now understand why so many Chinese martial artists give limp handshakes to people??? Everything is one thing.

I haven't done much seiza sitting in many years, so the workshop was not as easy on me as it would have been at one time. It was a lot of fun. I'd enjoy something again that was very focused on the Ki Society (and other) approaches to internal strength, but I doubt I could survive another big meeting doing a lot of things that I don't practice anymore, Joe. I appreciate the recommendation for the Summit though.

BTW, it was Ted Ehara who convinced me to go. Once I looked up Sensei Shaner's background and realized the potential to get idiomatic reads on what Tohei said and meant, I sent in my check.

All the Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 01:11 PM   #106
Joe Jutsu
Dojo: Currently relocating
Location: On the Road, USA
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 100
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hey Mike-

Well, I'm not much of a whistle blower, and to whom and to what purpose would I have blown it? I don't know if you caught my look of disbelief or not when we were working together, but it was there. I tested you from behind more for me than for you, but this is something that I've seen Tsubaki sensei do for years, it's not really sneaky and should be easily passed if you are standing correctly. As for having your feet close as a beginner, it has to do with keeping a natural stance. If you had "failed" the test, I may have asked you to take a slight hanmi stance. Maybe I can credit my iaido training for making me a stickler for footwork, I tend to look at things literally from the ground up. Is this the easiest path for beginners? Good question, I've been thinking about it for a bit. I think that teaching in this way helps to show the beginner the correct mindset while performing this set of skills. I'm by no means "advanced," but I've helped teach literally hundreds of beginners through my time at KU. FWIW, it's my opinion that if the beginner were allowed to take a very deep hanmi, for instance, the tendency to really brace yourself and fight the incoming test is there. But if you're in a more neutral stance, you're going to have to perform the test correctly, i.e. accepting the incoming force as opposed to fighting it. Either way, I'd love to see how your method differs, hopefully we can cross paths again so I can experience it first hand.

All that seiza really killed me by the end of the weekend as well. I didn't realize how much high school sports wreaked havoc on my body until I started aikido. But I'm all rested up and ready for more punishment! I hope to see you in Denver for the Summit, but more importantly I hope to see some other angles of developing internal strength as well (hopefully it's covered). And thanks again for sharing your experiences at this workshop.... You've given alot of food for thought.

Take care,

Joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 02:00 PM   #107
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote:
Well, I'm not much of a whistle blower, and to whom and to what purpose would I have blown it?
Hi Joe:

I just meant that I didn't want to be an extra variable in anyone's equation. For instance, if you had known who I was, I suspect it would have interfered with yours and my interaction. I wanted to observe the animal in its native habitat, as it were.
Quote:
Is this the easiest path for beginners? Good question, I've been thinking about it for a bit. I think that teaching in this way helps to show the beginner the correct mindset while performing this set of skills.
Ultimately, the responsibility for the push or receive must come from the ground. Relaxing and allowing the foot/leg to accept the load-bearing responsibility without any interference from the upper body is what is going on.

Transferring the push without triggering the primary muscles is the stuff that must be trained over time. Direct approaches to training this "structure" are like the exercises Rob John posted, propler Aiki Taiso, breathing exercises (when done correctly), and so on. Ideally, until the "structure"/"connection" is developed and the jin forces are developing, there should be no substantial forces used against a beginner, IMO.

"Mindset" is OK, but clinically we have to ask what is physically happening since "mindset" is not handling the force, if you see what I mean. Nor is the "Ki of the Universe" handling that force. This sort of clinical thinking is crucial to furtherance of martial skills, IMO.
Quote:
All that seiza really killed me by the end of the weekend as well. I didn't realize how much high school sports wreaked havoc on my body until I started aikido. But I'm all rested up and ready for more punishment! I hope to see you in Denver for the Summit,
I doubt that I'll be there in Denver, Joe... I live about 7 hours away, by car. But maybe we'll cross paths again one day.

All the Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 03:22 PM   #108
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote:
[snip] Another point that Shaner sensei made over and over again was essentially how incomplete the English translations of Tohei sensei's ki principles are. Sensei would read the japanese paragraph and that has been condensed down to "relax completely," for example. The phrase "limp noodle" has been brought up a few times throughout this thread. In Ki
Society this type of "relaxation" is reffered to as taeshi sp?, or dead calm. Seishi is the type of relaxation strived that we strive for, or alive calmness. Nothing limp there (that's what she said.....) Sorry I couldn't help myself.

A better translation than "relax completely" would be more along the lines of "take all the tension from your mind and your body and throw it away." So I can see how confusing this translation can be for beginners, it most certainly has been for me. [snip]
One juxtaposition of the Ki Society principles that always confused me is "Relax Completely" and "Extend Ki". The limp-noodle introspection of a common (mis)interpretation of "Relax Completely" does not accord with the projection of intent implied by "extend ki."

Clarification of Tohei's fuller meanings apparently lost by the reductionist common translation of these principles would be very helpful. I seem to remember, though, that Tohei spoke fairly good English . . . aren't the statements of principle his own translations?

Great thread topic, Mark (Jakabscin). I wished I'd been at the seminar with Shaner sensei.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 03:47 PM   #109
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

The idea of "relax completely" has to do with getting rid of the conscious muscle responses and let the body "naturally" do things. Not "instinctively", necessarily, but "naturally" as in the idea that it uses the laws of nature. The Ki Society's approach often involves ignoring what the opponent is doing and then "moving with the one-point". What happens is that the body "ties" itself together, to some extent (depending on experience, training, etc.). But the "One Point" draws its actual power origins from the ground or from the gravity (actually this is an oversimplification, but it'll do for the moment). It's this "tying" or "connection" that is really the essence of the Ki, as I said in another post.

So if you relax and stay "tied" or "connected" all together so that the power from the ground and the power from the weight/gravity is available at any point on the body at all times, you are effectively "extending Ki". The "One Point" can move in any direction at any time, so technically any point on the body can move as the "One Point" (assuming the connection or Ki is reasonably strong) at any time. The body moves as a unit because the mind and body are connected by the Ki. That's more or less a picture of what happens.

There are ways to strengthen the "Ki" and that's what "Kiko" (qigong) practice does. So many martial arts have their ways of practicing moving from the middle (some are *very* clever) and for strengthening the Ki/Qi.

Ushiro Sensei uses the Sanchin Kata, but if you analyse closely what is really going on, his power derives from the ground (that's why he can push so hard with 2 fingers, for example) or the weight, and he uses the breathing and stretching parts of the Sanchin Kata to build up the "Ki". Every Ki/Qi system can be looked at similarly as some variation of the forces and the Ki.

The Ki Society's method of practicing is, as I've said, a pretty good one with a lot of potential, insofar as it goes. It does not develop the ki, etc., up into the fajin stuff that so many people find cool, but it's good for what O-Sensei espoused for general Aikido. There is undoubtedly stuff in the higher levels of the Ki Society that I haven't seen, of course, so my comments are admittedly limited. The moving around always practicing "extending Ki" is a good exercise, BTW. Always moving with ki is the same "moving with kokyu and ki" that we've talked about in other discussions, BTW. Everything is the same thing.

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 05:27 PM   #110
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You know, Wayne, normally I would bypass your post, thinking you were out on the fringe somewhere, but after having attended Shaner Sensei's workshop, I realize that the words you're using aren't your own.

Let me see if I can get the ball rolling about "relaxation" from the Ki Society standpoint.

First of all, I don't think I worked with you (maybe I did, but there were so many people I worked with), so I'll just make general comments when I say "you". When you "relaxed", that wasn't all you did. If just "relax", not much is going to happen. So you qualify that you just "relax", but you do some sort of mental adjustment and try to become "one with the universe". Not to mention, and this is very important, you have had someone more experienced than you show you what is the desirable outcome of the "test". Let's say you're successful and someone pushing lightly on your chest suddenly can't move you.

The first question is "what do they feel" when you're "relaxed", but they feel a solidity when they push your chest? I.e., if you're relaxed, what is this solidity, this resistive force that they're feeling? A quick look at Statics analysis tells us that if they don't move you, all the forces are in equilibrium, which means that some force is countering their push. Correct? It's either a Force or it is the Ki of the Universe they're feeling, but let's assume it's a Force ... that force must have an origin somewhere, since it doesn't magically appear from an other-dimensional-outlet in your chest. What is the origin of the force? Simple to check and see that if you were on wheels your partner could move you easily, so the force must be coming from where your feet meet the ground. I.e., ultimately, when someone is doing a ki test by pushing lightly against your chest, they are being stopped by the ground.

But you're "relaxing", correct? Not using your normal mechanics to brace against the ground, so what is different?

OK, I'll stop at that point, Wayne. You've just assured us that all it takes is relaxing and becoming "one with the universe". I say it's more complex than that and I've laid out the start of the argument, which you can either respond to or ignore. But let me suggest that if you want to go very far with these sorts of skills you need to be asking questions constantly and persistently or you will always stay at a low, dues-paying level.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman
Denial of the simple truth of oneness with the universe can only stem from ego. That which calls itself 'mike sigman' is convinced it is a separate creature from the rest of the universe, capable of achieving some kind of 'special force' through aikido that others don't already have.

I argue that we all already have it, and all we have to do is let our egos out of the way. insistence on the existence of overly complicated forces such as 'jin' coming through the earth that you need to 'build up' or 'work on' is the product of a mental paradigm that hasn't realized the full simplicity of the truth of ki.

if you had listened carefully at that seminar mr. sigman, you would have heard the words "dead relaxation' and 'living relaxation'. please look into these as I don't want to type out an explanation of these two ideas.

what I DO want to say is, the reason that i don't move when you push on my chest, is that if I realize the fundamental truth that we both are one, and take my stand in non-dissension and harmony of the universe, any atempt by you to push me will be conflicted. Ultimately you will feel silly for pushing on me. why? because inside you are also connected to the universe and one with me, and at the deepest level of your being, there will be a conflict between what is, and what you 'think' there is.

This is what Osensei meant by transcending sensen no sen, saying that we must have an attitude of continuous victory.

funny that you would try to dismiss my ideas as 'fringe' when they are the very teachings of the founder of aikido and his greatest student. Maybe you should look deeper into what they said in their lifetimes. If morihei ueshiba was teaching a seminar in denver, you would likely think him a 'fringe' person as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 05:43 PM   #111
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Walter Sigman wrote:
But the "One Point" draws its actual power origins from the ground or from the gravity...
...
So if you relax and stay "tied" or "connected" all together so that the power from the ground and the power from the weight/gravity...
...
Ushiro Sensei uses the Sanchin Kata, but if you analyse closely what is really going on, his power derives from the ground...
Why do you believe one has to "anaylse closely"? It should be obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of introductory physics, because our feet push into the ground and gravity exists.

Check out p. 48 pic. 22 in The Secrets of Judo, a judo book from 1959, that explains that feet pushing off the ground, plus gravity pulling down, creates a resultant vector that is diagrammed as the body (and hence any arm, leg, etc. attached to the body) advancing.

Quote:
It does not develop the ki, etc., up into the fajin stuff that so many people find cool,
Considering Ki Society aikido is not taijiquan or any other Chinese martial arts, I'm not surprised that faijin is not on the menu.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 05:44 PM   #112
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
Denial of the simple truth of oneness with the universe can only stem from ego. That which calls itself 'mike sigman' is convinced it is a separate creature from the rest of the universe, capable of achieving some kind of 'special force' through aikido that others don't already have.
Actually, I'm just a humble martial arts practitioner, Wayne. And the idea of "jin" predates me by thousands of year. Why not just argue the issue, instead of my poor failings?
Quote:
I argue that we all already have it, and all we have to do is let our egos out of the way. insistence on the existence of overly complicated forces such as 'jin' coming through the earth that you need to 'build up' or 'work on' is the product of a mental paradigm that hasn't realized the full simplicity of the truth of ki.

if you had listened carefully at that seminar mr. sigman, you would have heard the words "dead relaxation' and 'living relaxation'. please look into these as I don't want to type out an explanation of these two ideas.

what I DO want to say is, the reason that i don't move when you push on my chest, is that if I realize the fundamental truth that we both are one, and take my stand in non-dissension and harmony of the universe, any atempt by you to push me will be conflicted. Ultimately you will feel silly for pushing on me. why? because inside you are also connected to the universe and one with me, and at the deepest level of your being, there will be a conflict between what is, and what you 'think' there is.

This is what Osensei meant by transcending sensen no sen, saying that we must have an attitude of continuous victory.

funny that you would try to dismiss my ideas as 'fringe' when they are the very teachings of the founder of aikido and his greatest student. Maybe you should look deeper into what they said in their lifetimes. If morihei ueshiba was teaching a seminar in denver, you would likely think him a 'fringe' person as well.
Er... if you read what I said, I did not try to dismiss your ideas as "fringe". Rather, I was saying that the words might normally have made me think something like that, but now I see where the words come from... so I commented in a demonstrable fashion about what is going on. I asked you to respond factually, but you've just heaped a lot of assertions and belief on me.

Take the simple act of someone pushing on your chest and let's analyze it. Let's have your feet on a furniture dolly in this example. Will you still be hard to move? If not, why not?

Regards,

Mike "Not Yet a Borg" Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 09:24 PM   #113
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Take the simple act of someone pushing on your chest and let's analyze it. Let's have your feet on a furniture dolly in this example. Will you still be hard to move? If not, why not?
It'd be the same difference between getting pushed whilst sitting on a four-legged chair vs an office chair on casters.... I flunked physics, so I'm not even going to attempt to try to explain why/how....

Something to do with how the forces are grounded and friction....???

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 11:04 PM   #114
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

It's harder on a trolley, especially when it's predicated that you're not allowed to move, because a) when the trolley starts to move that means you're fairly well grounded (else you would have been pushed over on the moving trolley, end of story) but you let the person get away with pushing you without you also resting your weight on them so that they support you on their peice of ground :-) so therefore b) you now have to control both the person pushing you from one direction and the trolley moving underneath you, so you *really* need to be able to handle the kis of heaven and earth through some seriously conditioned body connections and become the center of the universe :-) :-) :-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 11:25 PM   #115
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Wait a minute.... I assumed "being moved" meant as part of the entire setup - as opposed to falling over off a moving platform. If anything, I guess it helps with doing 'em skateboarding trickz huh???

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 06:51 AM   #116
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Well, if you push on someone and they don't move, that means that all the forces are in equilibrium. If the person moves, then some force or combination of forces is prevailing. If you put the person who was not moving on a set of casters and he now moves, you can be assured that where his feet touched the ground was an important part of why he did not move.

You cannot "convert" a horizontal force into a vertical force or vice versa. A force is what it is. So if someone pushes horizontally into your chest, you may "ground" it by letting the legs and feet absorb the responsibility for the load, but you can't dispense with the horizontal component in the feet... it must be accounted for. The coefficient of friction at the feet will be a factor. If that's true... and it's very, very easy to check it and see with a set of casters on furniture dolly or even roller-skates... then all the rest of the fact that someone is stable to a push can be analyzed by simple physics, too.

Now the early Asians weren't dumb. They didn't confuse simple mechanical forces with "Ki". So if a knowledgeable Asian says someone is not moving because of "Ki", then they mean something besides the forces. What is it besides the forces? It is that "connective" thing.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 03:16 PM   #117
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Walter Sigman wrote:
Now the early Asians weren't dumb. They didn't confuse simple mechanical forces with "Ki". So if a knowledgeable Asian says someone is not moving because of "Ki", then they mean something besides the forces. What is it besides the forces? It is that "connective" thing.
And is the "connective thing" just mechanical forces talked about poetically, or is it actually something else?

I'm wondering what else exists besides mechanics.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 04:00 PM   #118
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The idea of "relax completely" has to do with getting rid of the conscious muscle responses and let the body "naturally" do things. Not "instinctively", necessarily, but "naturally" as in the idea that it uses the laws of nature. The Ki Society's approach often involves ignoring what the opponent is doing and then "moving with the one-point". What happens is that the body "ties" itself together, to some extent (depending on experience, training, etc.). But the "One Point" draws its actual power origins from the ground or from the gravity (actually this is an oversimplification, but it'll do for the moment). It's this "tying" or "connection" that is really the essence of the Ki, as I said in another post.

So if you relax and stay "tied" or "connected" all together so that the power from the ground and the power from the weight/gravity is available at any point on the body at all times, you are effectively "extending Ki". The "One Point" can move in any direction at any time, so technically any point on the body can move as the "One Point" (assuming the connection or Ki is reasonably strong) at any time. The body moves as a unit because the mind and body are connected by the Ki. That's more or less a picture of what happens.

[snip]
That makes sense . . . thanks for the clarification, Mike.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 10:05 AM   #119
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,481
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You cannot "convert" a horizontal force into a vertical force or vice versa. A force is what it is.
That is only true in a linear, two dimensional model -- joints with only one degree of freedom (one plane of action). And then only if you do not allow for force couples, inertial moments (how easy it is to rotate a body in one or more axes) and rotation.

Because of the ground friction that you are addressing, a toppling moment is created from the first input of force. So you have defined a rotational problem from the get go.

Human joints have (apart from the knee) at least two, and some, three, degrees of freedom or planes of action. Human limbs inherently rotate in three dimensions. In a three-dimensional rotational framework, angular momentum can be used to convert a "horizontal" force to a "vertical" force, quite easily.

The human body can easily alter its functional inertial moment by changing the eccentricity of rotation, most simply seen in shifting weight from one hip to the other. That shift is an actual rotation, if you note how your hip girdle shifts when you do this. This shift of center can also be, in mathematical terms, equivalent to an actual additional rotation. It can have the same impact on the angular momentum (or inertial moment) as if rotating around the original center at a certain angular velocity.

Tohei illustrates this in the lecture video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfpTU...elated&search=

and even makes a point of showing the significance of the hip shift (4:40- 5:10).

There are two things going on 1) he is altering his own inertial moment to greater advantage by a hip shift, and then 2) exploiting the eccentricity of the attacker's shoulders and hips, stealing energy by basically rotating the fulcrum of his attacking rotation downward every time he tries to lever it against the ground to strike. Tohei does this by relaxing his weight into the forward hand (irimi).

That takes the attacker's attempted horizontal swing of his left hip to start the strike and applies vertical downward rotation (forward) to the forward arm and its center of rotation on the right hip. That causes precession of the horizontal rotation of the left hip and arm (also turning about the right hip as a center). This rotation shifts toward the vertical (down and left), in the transverse plane -- destroying the angular momentum for the strike and putting his center of gravity trajectory outside his zone of support to the left side, if he continues his attack.

You can do this to yourself if you place yourself in the attacker's position -- weighted toward the right forward foot, right arm out forward, balanced as though in mid-strike, with the back foot largely unweighted. Now begin the horizontal rotation of the hip/torso that will bring the attacking arm and rear leg forward together. At the same time, now create a small downward motion of the outstretched forward arm as you continue your slow striking motion. You will find yourself toppling toward the left, Even if you regain balance by getting the back leg forward for support on that side, you have substantially lost your line to that side.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Now the early Asians weren't dumb. They didn't confuse simple mechanical forces with "Ki". So if a knowledgeable Asian says someone is not moving because of "Ki", then they mean something besides the forces. What is it besides the forces? It is that "connective" thing.
Simple. And they didn't constrain themselves to two dimensional mechanics and linear forces, either.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-19-2006 at 10:08 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 11:58 AM   #120
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
That is only true in a linear, two dimensional model -- joints with only one degree of freedom (one plane of action). And then only if you do not allow for force couples, inertial moments (how easy it is to rotate a body in one or more axes) and rotation. (snip another lengthy dissertation)
Very simple to test, Erick, despite all the talk about joint rotations, 2-dimensional forces, etc. Let's put you on a furniture-dolly and push against you. If you can manipulate your joints so that there is only a vertical force going down onto the dolly, you won't move. If you cannot "convert" the horizontal push, you will move as a linear function of the horizontal force I provided. It is that simple. And you will move.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 12:59 PM   #121
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Very simple to test, Erick, despite all the talk about joint rotations, 2-dimensional forces, etc. Let's put you on a furniture-dolly and push against you. If you can manipulate your joints so that there is only a vertical force going down onto the dolly, you won't move. If you cannot "convert" the horizontal push, you will move as a linear function of the horizontal force I provided. It is that simple. And you will move.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
sorry Mike, could you restate the point you're trying to make? I'm having trouble following. You're saying that Ki is all about connection with the ground (vertical). Ok. I think Shaner Sensei made a good point in the seminar though about how there are all these different visualizations, water traveling out your arm from your one-point, the attackers ki being directed into your one-point, the attacker's ki having no effect on your one-point, and whichever conceptual model works best, is the one you should use.

So if a conceptual model that is different from yours still works, why change it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 01:20 PM   #122
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
You're saying that Ki is all about connection with the ground (vertical).
No, I didn't, Wayne. I said Ki was about connection... everywhere; all directions. This particular example is not what I said about Ki... this example to Erick has to do with force "conversions"... a different topic.
Quote:
Ok. I think Shaner Sensei made a good point in the seminar though about how there are all these different visualizations, water traveling out your arm from your one-point, the attackers ki being directed into your one-point, the attacker's ki having no effect on your one-point, and whichever conceptual model works best, is the one you should use.
My comment, my observation, my opinion... was that from the level of skills that I felt in people, they could perhaps do better with more explicative and focused visualizations. But it depends on what level of "works for me" someone wants. Someone may be happy at the level of skills they have and not want to go any higher. Each to his own, no recriminations, etc. I.e., I only offered my perspective and nothing more.
Quote:
So if a conceptual model that is different from yours still works, why change it?
Perhaps a broadening of perspective would make the point, but I was only offering an observation. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 01:32 PM   #123
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No, I didn't, Wayne. I said Ki was about connection... everywhere; all directions. This particular example is not what I said about Ki... this example to Erick has to do with force "conversions"... a different topic. My comment, my observation, my opinion... was that from the level of skills that I felt in people, they could perhaps do better with more explicative and focused visualizations. But it depends on what level of "works for me" someone wants. Someone may be happy at the level of skills they have and not want to go any higher. Each to his own, no recriminations, etc. I.e., I only offered my perspective and nothing more. Perhaps a broadening of perspective would make the point, but I was only offering an observation. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Interesting, because I didn't think your level of 'ki development' was particularly special. At least not special enough to recall the exercises I did with you as any different from anyone else.

So please explain more about how what you know and your style of Aikido is better and why we should learn that. (not sarcastic btw)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 02:28 PM   #124
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
Interesting, because I didn't think your level of 'ki development' was particularly special. At least not special enough to recall the exercises I did with you as any different from anyone else.

So please explain more about how what you know and your style of Aikido is better and why we should learn that. (not sarcastic btw)
I don't remember working with you, Wayne and you said you couldn't remember who I was before. Goodness..... I hope you're not just taking another petty shot at me!!!

Since it's pretty clear that I made no statements about anybody's style being "better", I'll let that one pass, but let me make a suggestion, Wayne.... try to debate the issue factually without devolving to the the personal.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 02:47 PM   #125
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I don't remember working with you, Wayne and you said you couldn't remember who I was before. Goodness..... I hope you're not just taking another petty shot at me!!!

Since it's pretty clear that I made no statements about anybody's style being "better", I'll let that one pass, but let me make a suggestion, Wayne.... try to debate the issue factually without devolving to the the personal.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Well I now recall only one guy from Durango, so I'm assuming that was you. I also recall no extra ki forces emanating from you. Nalawai sensei on the other hand, whew! He is either enlightened or close to it. I've never seen such a positive and wonderful Aura around someone.

I'm not attacking you Mike. I'm trying to phrase my questions in a way that won't make you get too sensitive, but I do tire of all this verbiage without getting to the point. I want the essence of your argument.

what are you trying to say? What was your purpose in your supposed 'sneaky white belt espionage' of that seminar? What is the essential point you are trying to make?

All I can get is that you are trying to say that a respected seventh Dan Aikido instructor either has a limited understanding of ki, or that his organization restricts him from talking about it, and that your understanding of ki (and jin forces yadda yadda) is more complete, and that you have the missing pieces to the puzzle that ki aikido has left out.

Give me the knowledge, tell me those missing pieces, so we can all go 'aha!' and have a wonderful realization together. It seems all you are doing is critiquing the seminar and other ki concepts without properly breaking down and explaining what you have that ki aikido doesn't.

Every time I try to make an educated guess about what you mean to say, you say 'No! that's not what I'm sayin'

so mike, as a favor to me, tell me what you are saying!

is it physics? is it jin? how does jin work? inquiring minds want to know.

and please no more copping out by pretending I am attacking you and hurting your feelings. I really just want to know the answers to these questions and wholeheartedly apologize if I'm too rough around the edges for you. I assure you I'm a kitten.



Last edited by Gwion : 12-19-2006 at 02:53 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wayne and Mike's Thread Gwion Open Discussions 8 12-23-2006 02:30 PM
Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06 Mike Sigman General 34 12-19-2006 08:21 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:16 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate