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Old 11-24-2006, 07:44 AM   #126
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

For myself this comment from Ikeda was the most encouraging
"For ourselves and for the Aikido of the future, it is necessary to completely change the way aikido is practiced. I think we have come to this critical crossroads."

I have observed and have been saying for years that Aikido is going "full speed in the wrong direction." Now that top people -in it- are seeing it as well, it will move "forward" by going "backward" to its roots.

It could be a great time for Aikido.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-24-2006 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:51 AM   #127
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I wonder if for those in attendance, Ushiro outlined exercises to his method? It sounded oddly like..."its in the kata" again to me.
Mark you are reading this and you were there. Thoughts?

Dan
P.S. high Josh, Hi Tom. Happy thanks giving to the lurkers

Last edited by DH : 11-24-2006 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:26 AM   #128
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Dan,
Which Mark? Unfortunately, I wasn't there. I would have liked to have been there, though.

Mark
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:33 AM   #129
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hi Bud

I thought you trained with him. My mistake. Was it just that once in Nov.?
I thought it would be interesting to see what Ushiro was doing to instill it in others. Whether he taught what was behind the sanchin kata...things like that.
And more interestingly.why....would ikeda be making this "observation" now? Is it ...after feeling Ushiro?
What has brought him to this "Critical time or juncture in AIkido?"
Now that certain people are speaking up about whats missing? That he has actually felt things that are out there? What?

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-24-2006 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:49 AM   #130
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hi Bud

I thought you trained with him. My mistake. Was it just that once in Nov.?
I thought it would be interesting to see what Ushiro was doing to instill it in others. Whether he taught what was behind the sanchin kata...things like that.
And more interestingly.why....would ikeda be making this "observation" now? Is it ...after feeling Ushiro?
Cheers
Dan
Yeah, I only trained once with Ikeda. Haven't made it to see Ushiro yet, but from the sounds of things, I'd say he's doing some interesting things. I thought I read a report (other than the one you quoted) on one of Ushiro's seminars and his sanchin kata. Can't find it now, though.

What gets me the most -- That all this "stuff" is being mentioned by people *outside* of Aikido. You, Mike, Rob, Ellis, and Ushiro. Hopefully, Ikeda will be able to help shape a new direction. Otherwise, we'll just get the same old "That stuff ain't Aikido" rhetoric.

Mark
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Old 11-24-2006, 10:35 AM   #131
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
What gets me the most -- That all this "stuff" is being mentioned by people *outside* of Aikido. You, Mike, Rob, Ellis, and Ushiro. Hopefully, Ikeda will be able to help shape a new direction. Otherwise, we'll just get the same old "That stuff ain't Aikido" rhetoric.
I think the culture of "AikiSpeak" basically crippled Aikido. Aikispeak is not a bad idea in itself, but it is very easily (and too often) warped into a passive-aggressive method of making people conform to some ideas held by the New Age inheritors. That's why Aikido became known as a California-martial-art so early on.

The more I look into Aikido books and sources, the more I realize that there actually was a lot of material offering clues. The problem was that these clues were different from the creed of many of the hierarchical western figures in Aikido. You only hear what you want to hear. And since being "confrontational" or "inquisitive" is immediately put under pressure as being wrong.... progress is stopped. I know. I watched it time and time again. So did many others. The question is whether anyone seeking progress can get past the juggernaut of the established hierarchy. Frankly, my opinion is that the mood to shift is there and is strong enough, among a reasonable number of practitioners. And sure, there will be people who will continue to make Aikido a "peace and love" role-playing game, but who cares? The equivalent progress is beginning to bloom in other martial arts, too... and not everyone will change-over in those either. Yet.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-24-2006, 10:39 AM   #132
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

It really does seem that there is an undercurrent going through the Aikido world that has the capacity to:

A - completely change current training methods (either back to what was originally there or to include elements that should be there -- however people want to view it).

B - to wreak havok among Aikido schools (and in some small part, you can see it happening here where people argue about what aikido really is)

or

C -- both A and B.

But, neither is not an option at this point. Things have been introduced in a fashion that Aikido will change. The question remains on whether your school will change or whether your school will remain as it is.

This isn't something that will change over night. It's something that the next generation of Aikido students will face. IMO, anyway.
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Old 11-24-2006, 11:47 AM   #133
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Dan
P.S. high Josh, Hi Tom. Happy thanks giving to the lurkers
Thanks, and ditto.

I'll lurk less maybe when I can verify that I've got something real.. a year or two maybe? After having met Mike, Ark, and you I'm personally convinced that there's a common fundamental skill set that is "very different", but I don't think any one else should listen to me yet. I've got enough to work to keep myself busy anyhow
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Old 12-04-2006, 04:10 AM   #134
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
Thanks, and ditto.

I'll lurk less maybe when I can verify that I've got something real.. a year or two maybe? After having met Mike, Ark, and you I'm personally convinced that there's a common fundamental skill set that is "very different", but I don't think any one else should listen to me yet. I've got enough to work to keep myself busy anyhow
I'd say the value in contributing is that most folks have never- even once- felt these skills. Others may have felt them from high level teachers but were and are not shown how to train these skills. Instead they are dragged into a twenty years long apprentiship and told they cannot but learn the real body skills except through technique. When in fact the opposite is true. The body skills can be taught and trained in...and its they...that drive the technique.
You, have felt the body skills from three very diverse approaches. A continent apart, and a world apart yet as you say strangely there's a common fundamental skill set, that is very different from what people normally see.
That experience alone has value .Both for you and others. And writing of it- lets others hear from a fellow searcher who's been there and back as it were.
And hey...it's kept you looking, and that places you a mile ahead of those still stuck with their heads in the sand refusing to look, and even others hoping it will go away.

See ya on the mats Tom
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-04-2006 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 12-04-2006, 08:26 AM   #135
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
After having met Mike, Ark, and you I'm personally convinced that there's a common fundamental skill set that is "very different", but I don't think any one else should listen to me yet. I've got enough to work to keep myself busy anyhow
I think it's nice to hear from other people who are just starting to work out this stuff. I'm likely even more clueless about all this that you are, because I'm so terrible about solo training. But every time I read another discussion I get an urge to go and do shiko. It really helps with my motivation to not feel so alone about this stuff.

Maybe we should start a thread called "Internal Skillz Kindergarten"

kvaak
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Old 12-04-2006, 08:46 AM   #136
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
I think it's nice to hear from other people who are just starting to work out this stuff. I'm likely even more clueless about all this that you are, because I'm so terrible about solo training. But every time I read another discussion I get an urge to go and do shiko. It really helps with my motivation to not feel so alone about this stuff.
The bad news is that AFAIK, the only way you will make progress is by yourself. I currently think a good teacher should be able to show you a glimpse of the next level, and explain how to train for it, but if you don't do the work to rebuild your body...

FWIW, the more solo work I do, the more interesting it becomes. I'll start by telling myself, "Ok, Tom. Pull yourself together. We're going to do twenty shiko now." By the time I'm done I want to do twenty more to explore some new feeling or aspect.
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:51 AM   #137
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Twenty.....Cool!!!!
I'm dead by ten...

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 12-04-2006, 11:03 AM   #138
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Yeah I was just going to say.. if I even get to twenty, I just want to lie down on the floor in a little wet heap...

kvaak
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Old 12-04-2006, 11:12 AM   #139
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote:
Twenty.....Cool!!!!
I'm dead by ten...
I know the kind you are talking about. I do Akuzawa's tenchijin exercise that way--fifteen kills me now, but when I started I was hitting muscle failure after only three . I do the shiko much "softer", partly because I'm aiming for high-reps (100 per training session, split up by other exercises into groups of 20 or 25).

Last edited by Tom H. : 12-04-2006 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 12-04-2006, 11:24 AM   #140
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
And hey...it's kept you looking, and that places you a mile ahead of those still stuck with their heads in the sand refusing to look, and even others hoping it will go away.
My plan is to get a decent foundation that someone like you, Rob, or Mike would recognize as basic competence. Then I'm going to put myself in contact with "non-believers" to confirm that there really is something here, and that I've started getting it. I don't really care about style as an end now; I'll go wherever I can pick out the best training methodology (xingyi, sumo, yoga, bjj, wherever), but I do have a soft spot for aikido.
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Old 12-05-2006, 08:26 PM   #141
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
I know the kind you are talking about. I do Akuzawa's tenchijin exercise that way--fifteen kills me now, but when I started I was hitting muscle failure after only three . I do the shiko much "softer", partly because I'm aiming for high-reps (100 per training session, split up by other exercises into groups of 20 or 25).
15 Kills you?
Doing 6 in a row will leave me in a wreck
Actually, I just "realized" some other alignment property recently, and three reps in a row done slow will tax me

The deeper you dig, the harder the exercises become...
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Old 12-05-2006, 09:03 PM   #142
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
15 Kills you?
Doing 6 in a row will leave me in a wreck
Actually, I just "realized" some other alignment property recently, and three reps in a row done slow will tax me

The deeper you dig, the harder the exercises become...
That's a good pointer for beginners with these exercises. If they are seeming easier, check your alignment. And it's a good incentive to dig deeper. Thanks, Rob.
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Old 12-06-2006, 03:05 AM   #143
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote:
We're going to do twenty shiko now...Akuzawa's tenchijin exercise
Can you describe these exercises? I'd like to try a little experimentation as well. "Shiko"?

Joe
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:58 AM   #144
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Sumo leg lifting / weight shifting exercise...search on it and some sites describing the trad. practice will come up...

B,
R

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Old 12-06-2006, 07:32 AM   #145
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I've not read one that describes what you should and could be doing with it.

Dan
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Old 12-06-2006, 08:04 AM   #146
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Heh, well, I wouldn't know it if it bit me in the butt! Could you elaborate? Maybe take the basic gross motor motions first, then describe what you add? I for one am all ears...

Best,
Ron

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Old 12-06-2006, 08:16 AM   #147
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Sumo leg lifting / weight shifting exercise...search on it and some sites describing the trad. practice will come up...B, R
Ron, Not trying to be a pain, but I don't understand. Are you telling me that "Shiko" is the Sumo Leg Lifting exercise, like what they do in the beginings of the matches? Are the individual exercises I can do to try and lay some sort of physical ground work for the development of these "internal" skills tied to Sumo wrestling?
Can I get a description of a basic simple drill which I can possibly do some self exploration with?

Joe

PS. Taking your advice I ran a search on "sumo" exercises. Are these the things you had in mind?

http://www.sumo.or.jp/eng/kyokai/kenko_taiso.html
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Old 12-06-2006, 09:25 AM   #148
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

'Thomas Campbell wrote:
We're going to do twenty shiko now...Akuzawa's tenchijin exercise

Can you describe these exercises? I'd like to try a little experimentation as well. "Shiko"?

Joe'

Joe,

I think you inadvertently placed someone else's post in a quote from me, above.

The exercises I believe you're interested in come from the Aunkai training of Akuzawa Minoru. Robert John has posted an article on a previous thread about some of these basic exercises:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...407#post152407

The article was originally posted at bullshido.com in two parts.

The "shiko" as it's been explained to me differs from the traditional sumo exercise. Akuzawa's version may be derived from his Daito-ryu training at the Sagawa dojo . . . Rob can certainly feel free to correct me on this.
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Old 12-06-2006, 10:13 AM   #149
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Here is a description from Dan on e-budo:

Quote:
I think the Sumo shikko work is two fold though. The arch for shikko can be used to drive a ground path one side to the other but also in a stand up form to divide and weight drop. One has more significant advantages in a grappling format over the other. But you already know this I think.
Ground work and using the same connections in different planes.
If you are in a top mount ground-and-pound; First try setting up a path from your knees to your shoulders so when he pulls he gets zip- all while your arms are free to whip him or drill. Then if he wins and he does a pull to bring you down to avoid the punches? Use the path from your knee to your arm or hand as he pulls and "ground" through him in his face or neck. It being a new definition to heaviness.
If you have a four corner top mount do the same thing one path to the other criss-crossing. You can also use the ground path to do chokes that most MMA guys can't make work so they throw them away and won't train them. Also to "punish" a guy while working him. With very small movement in a clinch you should be able to use a path to generate power and wind-in at the same time right? If you can- you can do a hell of a lot of damage with your head and hands using your legs and hips. Think about it.
As you have learned it isn't a panacea to all physical dilemmas- but as I have always maintained "It is the best way to train in the world."
If you go to this link http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/...p/t-31125.html there are some fairly extensive conversations about it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-06-2006, 12:07 PM   #150
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
I know the kind you are talking about. I do Akuzawa's tenchijin exercise that way--fifteen kills me now, but when I started I was hitting muscle failure after only three . I do the shiko much "softer", partly because I'm aiming for high-reps (100 per training session, split up by other exercises into groups of 20 or 25).
I'd love to hear Rob's take on this, but I've found that in order to do higher reps, I need to soften up what I'm doing internally, which seems to be counter to the intent of the exercises. Unlike say suburi, where you can find yourself in a zone where you're able to do higher reps after eliminating a lot of the unnecessary muscle groups, the Aunkai exercises seem to be designed to force various muscle groups to work against each other. So the stronger you get, and the more you do them the more you have to work at it to do the same thing. For the shiko, I'm doing sets of 10 but holding the top of the movement for a 10 count, then trying to lower myself slowly while still driving my weight into the 'stomp' and maintaining the cross (not to mention keeping the lower back straight/tucked). Blech, they are teh suckay... And don't even get me started on the weird store/release whip over thingy (although I think it might help me with my backside 3's in the park this year...)

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