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Old 11-26-2006, 01:25 PM   #1
feck
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What would you call civil war?

With the ongoing battle in iraq, and the internal population killing each other, why is it that the worlds media still denies that its collapsing into civil war out there?

What is your definition of civil war(click this link to go to wikipedia) ?
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:21 PM   #2
SeiserL
 
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Darren Paul wrote:
With the ongoing battle in iraq, and the internal population killing each other, why is it that the worlds media still denies that its collapsing into civil war out there?
1. What do you mean "cal lapsing into"? It would appear the country, and region, has a long history of civil wars.

2. "Civil War" is an oxymoron. No war is civil.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:58 PM   #3
Neil Mick
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Darren Paul wrote:
why is it that the worlds media still denies that its collapsing into civil war out there?
Not quite sure what you mean, Darren. I think that the world media is pretty succinct in calling the Iraq disaster a civil war.

Can you cite some sources, tho? I could well be wrong (it HAS happened before)
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Old 11-28-2006, 08:39 AM   #4
skinnymonkey
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Re: What would you call civil war?

It seems that only recently has the media decided to go ahead and call it a civil war. Most of the time up until now, they have just been asking the question "Is Iraq in civil war?" so they don't have the appearance of making a judgement call. The White House still refuses to call this a civil war (as recently as this morning, they called it an Al-Qaida plot).

Here is a link explaining how NBC news recently made the decision to just call it a civil war
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/..._war_48149.asp

I agree with Lynn tho... no war is civil.

Jeff D.
P.S. Has anyone re-read Animal Farm lately? It's kind of weird to read in light of how things have been going in the American Govt. lately. Snowball (Al-Qaida) did it! Just my opinion tho.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:25 PM   #5
Mark Freeman
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
P.S. Has anyone re-read Animal Farm lately? It's kind of weird to read in light of how things have been going in the American Govt. lately. Snowball (Al-Qaida) did it! Just my opinion tho.
you may think differently if you had two more legs

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:15 PM   #6
deepsoup
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
The White House still refuses to call this a civil war (as recently as this morning, they called it an Al-Qaida plot).
Oh well, at least thats a bit more realistic than calling it "mission accomplished".
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Old 11-29-2006, 07:11 AM   #7
skinnymonkey
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
you may think differently if you had two more legs
Four legs good... two legs better!! (after the pigs revision of the seven commandments)
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:55 AM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Why would you Brits care about what the US government does? The Brits and Europeans have allowed 2 world wars to start because they thought they were more brilliant than anyone else. Let's discuss how the Brits and the EU solved the Bosnia crisis by themselves. That was just a "civil war".... why should anyone have gotten involved? Try bashing your own countries before you start throwing too many stones. Funny I never see that.

Frankly, I get a little tired of the constant US bashing by the people who can't even protect themselves and yet who want the US to protect them in case all their socialist theory goes wrong, like it is right now, on every front.

Mike
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:59 AM   #9
Thomas Campbell
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Re: What would you call civil war?

"You Brits" . . . last time I counted there were sixty million Britons, expressing a wide variety of opinions, and over 7,000 of them in the current conflagration in Iraq, engaged in Basra and elsewhere, serving their government and allied with the U.S. effort.

It's a little simplistic to condemn an entire nation based on one citizen's opinion. And I'm not sure how the U.S. invasion of Iraq "protected" Britain.

Nevertheless, it was good to see Bush trying to move ahead with al-Maliki in their meeting in Amman this week. Whether you call it civil war or sectarian bloodbath feted by a murderous insurgency, the violence in Iraq has reached a tipping point.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:03 AM   #10
Mike Sigman
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote:
"You Brits" . . . last time I counted there were sixty million Britons,
That's great, but that's not the Brits posting on this thread, is it?

Mike
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Old 11-30-2006, 01:37 AM   #11
Neil Mick
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
I agree with Lynn tho... no war is civil.
Agreed.

Speaking of new terms, I recall a bit George Carlin did about how new words and phrases get longer, the more that time passes (e.g., "shell shock" (blunt, to the point) become "post traumatic stress disorder")

NOW, we aren't even calling them "hungry" anymore...

Quote:
U.S. Stops Describing Americans as "Hungry"
In news from Washington, the Bush administration has stopped using the words "hunger" or "hungry" when describing the millions of Americans who can't afford to eat. Instead of suffering from hunger, the Agriculture Department now says these people are experiencing "very low food security." The USDA estimates that 12 percent of Americans or 35 million people could not put food on the table at least part of last year.
Ah, the US gov't...an organization just filled with the milk of human compassion...or maybe it will be called "optimal emotional responses of human co-adaptability," someday...

Quote:
Jeff D.
P.S. Has anyone re-read Animal Farm lately? It's kind of weird to read in light of how things have been going in the American Govt. lately. Snowball (Al-Qaida) did it! Just my opinion tho.
I suppose that that would make Bush "Napoleon..."
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:48 AM   #12
James Davis
 
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:

I suppose that that would make Bush "Napoleon..."
Didn't he put somebody in the glue factory truck right after the elections?

Remember folks, regardless of who's in control, it's hard to build a windmill when the sheep keep pissing in the water.

What's the best way to make communism work?

With killer dogs.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:22 AM   #13
Thomas Campbell
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Not sure about the connection between sheep and building windmills, Mr. Davis . . . but I do like your signature phrase. I might put Halliburton in with Congress, there.
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:16 AM   #14
Mark Freeman
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
Remember folks, regardless of who's in control, it's hard to build a windmill when the sheep keep pissing in the water.
Is this some obscure Floridian saying James, I'm confused

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:44 AM   #15
Neil Mick
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
What's the best way to make communism work?

With killer dogs.
Hey, it seems to (not) do the job at Gitmo (and Baghram, and Abu Ghraib, et al)....why not with Marx...?
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Old 11-30-2006, 03:47 PM   #16
James Davis
 
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Is this some obscure Floridian saying James, I'm confused

regards,

Mark
Nope. Orwellian.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 11-30-2006, 05:06 PM   #17
Mark Freeman
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
Nope. Orwellian.
whoops, that put me in my place, it's time I read the book again

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-01-2006, 09:54 AM   #18
James Davis
 
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
whoops, that put me in my place
Sorry, Mark. I forgot I was wearing iron shoes.
Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
, it's time I read the book again
I like that book quite a bit.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 12-01-2006, 11:41 AM   #19
Don_Modesto
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
P.S. Has anyone re-read Animal Farm lately? It's kind of weird to read in light of how things have been going in the American Govt. lately. Snowball (Al-Qaida) did it! Just my opinion tho.
Not lately. But wasn't Snowball one of the original pigs? So wouldn't Powell be more the Snowball figure, the dissenter?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:32 PM   #20
skinnymonkey
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Would Snowball be Powell...Well... not necessarily... if you consider that the support for the Taliban and some of the Al Qaida leaders were originally backed by the US. Same would go for Saddam, I guess.

This is one of my favorite vids. It's Rumsfeld in the 80s (a few months after Saddam committed the killing of the kurds in the north, I think) visiting with Saddam to show our American solidarity with him and his regime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTldYbqlJc8

And before it comes up... yes, I know that Animal farm was written as a warning against communism, but after re-reading it, I was surprised at how many things seemed to fit into our current situation with our govt. here in the USA.
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Old 12-02-2006, 02:18 PM   #21
Neil Mick
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Re: What would you call civil war?

But, back to the topic at hand...

Quote:
Darren Paul wrote:
With the ongoing battle in iraq
I was reading this article by Robert Fisk that puts it succinctly: Bush is in major denial about Iraq. With everyone from Kofi Annan to NBC to Colin Powell calling it a civil war (oh, sorry...Annan "hedged" his bets by calling it "almost a civil war") and even the US Marines throwing in the towel on success in Western Iraq...

Anbar Picture Grows Clearer, and Bleaker

Quote:
The U.S. military is no longer able to defeat a bloody insurgency in western Iraq or counter al-Qaeda's rising popularity there, according to newly disclosed details from a classified Marine Corps intelligence report that set off debate in recent months about the military's mission in Anbar province.

"From the Sunni perspective, their greatest fears have been realized: Iran controls Baghdad and Anbaris have been marginalized."
...it is becoming obvious that, start to finish, the war and extended occupation was (is) the worst thing we could have done, to ensure lasting peace in the world.

Like Hitler and Brezhnev, Bush is in denial

Quote:
Robert Fisk wrote:
History's "deniers" are many - and all subject to the same folly: faced with overwhelming evidence of catastrophe, they take refuge in fantasy, dismissing evidence of collapse as a symptom of some short-term setback, clinging to the idea that as long as their generals promise victory - or because they have themselves so often promised victory - that fate will be kind. George W Bush - or Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara for that matter - need not feel alone. The Middle East has produced these fantasists by the bucketful over past decades.

In 1967, Egyptian president Gamel Abdul Nasser insisted his country was winning the Six Day War hours after the Israelis had destroyed the entire Egyptian air force on the ground. President Carter was extolling the Shah's Iran as "an island of stability in the region" only days before Ayatollah Khomeini's Islamic revolution brought down his regime. President Leonid Brezhnev declared a Soviet victory in Afghanistan when Russian troops were being driven from their fire bases in Nangahar and Kandahar provinces by Osama bin Laden and his fighters.

And was it not Saddam Hussein who promised the "mother of all battles" for Kuwait before the great Iraqi retreat in 1991? And was it not Saddam again who predicted a US defeat in the sands of Iraq in 2003? Saddam's loyal acolyte, Mohamed el-Sahaf, would fantasise about the number of American soldiers who would die in the desert; George W Bush let it be known that he sometimes slipped out of White House staff meetings to watch Sahaf's preposterous performance and laugh at the fantasies of Iraq's minister of information.

So who is laughing at Bush now? Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, almost as loyal a retainer to Bush as Sahaf was to Saddam, receives the same false praise from the American president that Nasser and Brezhnev once lavished upon their generals. "I appreciate the courage you show during these difficult times as you lead your country," Bush tells Maliki. "He's the right guy for Iraq," he tells us. And the Iraqi Prime Minister who hides in the US-fortified "Green Zone" - was ever a crusader fortress so aptly named? - announces that "there is no problem". Power must be more quickly transferred to Maliki, we were informed yesterday. Why? Because that will save Iraq? Or because this will allow America to claim, as it did when it decided to allow the South Vietnamese army to fight on its own against Hanoi, that Washington is not to blame for the debacle that follows? "One of his frustrations with me is that he believes that we've been slow about giving him the tools necessary to protect the Iraqi people." Or so Bush says. "He doesn't have the capacity to respond. So we want to accelerate that capacity." But how can Maliki have any "capacity" at all when he rules only a few square miles of central Baghdad and a clutch of rotting ex-Baathist palaces?
And yet, we continue to wade deeper into the mess we made, mostly because one man cannot see what is plainly obvious to the rest of the world (OK...TWO men, counting Blair. But, the latest suggests that he's not so gung-ho either, of late.

Nope, we made the mess: and our presence there makes it worse. The Saudi Arabians recently stated that they will intercede in Iraq, should the US withdraw--EVEN IF it sparks off a regional conflict.

It's like watching a man slowly sink into a bog after he stepped onto a plank, with the idiotic idea that he could walk on it to build a bridge to the other side. As he sinks up to his armpits (and rising): he keeps telling the rest of us (hanging on, for dear life) that it's all good...we've "made (yet another) 'turning point';" when all the while many ppl (coming up on a million, all told) have died, believing his nonsense even as the bog swallows them up.

Quote:
Robert Fisk wrote:
About the only truthful statement uttered in Amman yesterday was Bush's remark that "there's a lot of speculation that these reports in Washington mean there's going to be some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq [but] this business about a graceful exit just simply has no realism to it at all." Indeed, it has not. There can be no graceful exit from Iraq, only a terrifying, bloody collapse of military power. The withdrawal of Shia ministers from Maliki's cabinet mirror the withdrawal of Shia ministers from another American-supported administration in Beirut - where the Lebanese fear an equally appalling conflict over which Washington has, in reality, no military or political control.

Bush even appeared oblivious of the current sectarian map of Iraq. "The Prime Minister made clear that splitting his country into parts, as some have suggested, is not what the Iraqi people want, and that any partition of Iraq would only lead to an increase in sectarian violence," he said. "I agree." But Iraq is already "split into parts". The fracture of Iraq is virtually complete, its chasms sucking in corpses at the rate of up to a thousand a day.

Even Hitler must chuckle at this bloodbath, he who claimed in April 1945 that Germany would still win the Second World War, boasting that his enemy, Roosevelt, had died - much as Bush boasted of Zarqawi's killing - while demanding to know when General Wenck's mythical army would rescue the people of Berlin. How many "Wencks" are going to be summoned from the 82nd Airborne or the Marine Corps to save Bush from Iraq in the coming weeks? No, Bush is not Hitler. Like Blair, he once thought he was Winston Churchill, a man who never - ever - lied to his people about Britain's defeats in war. But fantasy knows no bounds.
Leaving Iraq will cause a bloodbath. Staying in Iraq increase the sectarian violence (read: multiple blood baths), destabilize the region and (it appears) strengthen the regional power of Iran.

Is there really a choice? Not if you care about human rights, IMO. But, if we did that, we wouldn't have been there in the first place.
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Old 12-02-2006, 02:32 PM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: What would you call civil war?

What I can't understand is why we would ever want to get involved in a civil war. For instance, take Kosovo. The Serbs versus the Muslims was purely a civil war. Nobody attacked or represented a threat to the US from that area, so we actually just invaded them. The UN did not give the OK to attack Kosovo. We STILL are not out of that quagmire... just the same as we're not out of the quagmire of Korea, which was purely a "civil war", in the classical sense, as was Vietnam, and so on.

But I guess is depends on whose Ox you're trying to gore. It's pretty plain that Neil only wants to gore the ox that is the US ... no one else. It's funny how even wild bird offspring can be taught not to crap in their nest, but humans can't be taught to do the same.

Mike
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Old 12-02-2006, 04:44 PM   #23
Neil Mick
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
...(ignored)...
Who knows what thoughts and utterances go on behind the "Ignored" Curtain?

Only the "Stalker" knows...
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Old 12-02-2006, 07:07 PM   #24
skinnymonkey
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
It's funny how even wild bird offspring can be taught not to crap in their nest, but humans can't be taught to do the same.
Well, some people would say that it is actually the Bush Admin who is crapping in the nest. If you subscribe to that line of thinking, it seems perfectly reasonable for us "baby birds" to squawk a bit about it.



I actually agree with what went down in Afghanistan, but this Iraq thing is a mess. If we really wanted to "light the fire of democracy" in the middle east, why didn't we just do it well in Afghanistan? Also... look at Iran, which is a (kind of) democracy. That doesn't seem to work in our favor, so does democracy in the middle east help us or hurt us?

The honest truth is that war doesn't typically solve problems. Sure... it does solve them occasionally (slavery, WWII, - heck... I'll even agree that the Gulf War almost solved a problem.- etc) but it generally causes more problems (at least in the modern world) than it solves. I'm not going to say that war never solves problems, but it usually doesn't.

If you look at most "pre-emptive" wars (or police actions, or whatever you want to call them)... they have almost uniformly failed.

Just some food for thought on who is really pooping in the nest.

Jeff D.
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Old 12-02-2006, 07:25 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
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Re: What would you call civil war?

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
Well, some people would say that it is actually the Bush Admin who is crapping in the nest. If you subscribe to that line of thinking, it seems perfectly reasonable for us "baby birds" to squawk a bit about it.
Except, the "baby birds" didn't squawk a bit when Clinton did all those things in Bosnia, did they? In other words, the standards for squawking turn out to be no more than simple partisan politics dressed up as overly-righteous moral outrage. It's called "hypocrisy", in reality. The fact that the Mullahs are gleefully celebrating that the Dem's won the majority of the elections this time says it all. They know who is best able to sink the US.

Regards,

Mike
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