Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-28-2006, 03:11 AM   #51
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Speaking of stopping a technique on a teacher, no biggie. My aikido teacher says, there is no shame in changing the technique to deal with the everchanging circumstances. He would simply just henka to a different technique. Boon.
Exactly. Any uke can stop a technique that he knows is coming. And any nage with any skill just changes the technique to take the advantage of the suki opened up by the uke's resistance. For someone to crow that he was able to stop Saotome from doing a technique, he would have to be pretty clueless about exactly what is going on. For a shihan to not call on such an uke again is not necessarily a sign of that uke's superior skills. It could just be a sign that the shihan realizes there is no point in trying to teach a class with an uke suffering from ego problems. An Aikikai Hombu instructor, 6th dan, made this exact same point in a recent seminar I attended. And trust me, he had no trouble flattening anyone there who was trying to resist (me included). He just didn't see the point in engaging in a contest when he was there to teach.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 05:42 AM   #52
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Raul, in principle I agree with you that if you know it is coming you can make life hard for the other guy. But there are 2 provisos: 1) you and he both use the correct body mechanics, and 2) you are fairly close in skill level. For 1) it doesn't matter how strong you might be or how well you know the technique is coming, you won't be able to stop it if the other uses better body mechanics than you do. For 2) if you use same body mechanics (right or wrong) life is tough - now, if both are using (or attempting to use) the right mechanics, then the extra work is very good for both of you. I would not say changing the technique is necessary, since the preparation for it (kuzushi) is pretty much invisible. But if that kuzushi fails (see points above) then some gross body motion might be needed to get back one's own structural integrity and "try again". Mostly I've found lately a matter of opening up joints again that started to close (or collapse).

To make a point about slapping or not: I've found that keeping joints open, and noticing this, during the fall, makes the whole fall softer than anything a forced "round shape" could do so far. Slapping in this same manner from the body results in something like an atemi to the ground which of course sends back energy into the body to say the feet or at least hara, but does not "relax" the arms so that the fingers get whipped onto the mat or concrete. I've experimented with this quite happily on concrete and tarmac and if the focus is not on slapping with the palm of the hand but in the same manner as an extended arm for kokyu-ho or aiki-age, powered by say the lower back rather than the shoulder or the momentum of the throw, there does not seem to be any damage and energy can be played with.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 05:49 AM   #53
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Gernot, you're right. My only addition is I'm still trying to understand what the "correct body mechanics" really is, and it will take me several more years to get anywhere.

As for slapping: over the past couple of years we've been consciously removing it from our practice because, yes, an arm extended in a kokyu manner is more effective and softer.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 05:51 AM   #54
Aran Bright
Dojo: Griffith Aikido Yuishinkai
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 120
Australia
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

What do you mean about opening up your joints? Say for example the elbow, do you mean to straighten if bent or extending along the length of the arm?

http://brisbaneaikido.com

Brisbane Aikido Republic
Brisbane
Australia
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 06:49 AM   #55
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
Jim,


If you want to know when and where the incident with Saotome happened, ask around the ASU. People saw it. Although I°«m sure they remember it much differently than I did since, for ASU people (like Dennis Hooker), it couldn°«t possibly be true that anyone actually stopped Saotome°«s technique. Obviously I must be lying or the reason he couldn°«t throw me was that °»he didn°«t want to hurt me.°… Sure. If you really want to know what happened, why don°«t you just ask Saotome himself? He is your teacher, right?


Best regards,
Giancarlo DiPierro
I will be with Saotome Sensei in a few weeks but I would not ask him. You made the blatant statement so we are asking you. I can state from personal experience sometimes when teaching a seminar I get an unfriendly uke or someone that thinks he has the right stuff. I got a couple of choices; 1, Go ahead and do the technique and to hell with safety 2, muddle through trying not to hurt the guy or 3 three just walk away. Usually the jerk has seen me do the technique on someone else so it is very easy to counter even if in a clumsy way. What would you expect a Shihan like Saotome to do? Hurt you? In my 40 or so years of Aikido I have been on the mat with every Shihan in America living and dead since the 1960s and in my experience they only hurt their own students to teach a needed lesson. There would be no value or point in forcing the issue. Liar might have been a wrong word. Delusional and inexperienced might have been better words.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 08:12 AM   #56
cguzik
Location: Tulsa, OK
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 166
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

This has been an interesting thread. A couple of points came to mind that I'd like to add:

Regarding stopping a teacher at a seminar - I will be the first to admit that I have trouble listening at the same time I am talking. I think this is the case for most people. When I go to a seminar, I am there to listen and learn. And most of the time, the teacher has something in particular they are trying to teach. If I choose to resist in order to test the teacher (even if my motivation in doing so is for example to learn how the teacher deals with my resistance - which is a perfectly valid motive), I communicate to the teacher and everyone else present that my topic of choice (e.g., how does this teacher deal with my resistance) takes precedence over what the teacher is trying to show. This is arrogant and disrespectful behavior. There is a time and place for testing yourself with the help of your teacher - which may take the form of resisting your teacher. But that time and place is not in a public seminar where they are trying to teach something else.

Furthermore, this directly relates to what it means to execute appropriate ukemi. Appropriate ukemi is exactly what is required to bring about an interaction that exhibits the lesson at hand. That lesson is chosen by the teacher. It is the student's job to observe what the teacher is doing and attempt to discern what and how they should be practicing in order to learn what the teacher is teaching. The most difficult job of being uke for the teacher when they demonstrate is to adapt to what they are trying to show and move appropriately, without presumption and still staying safe in a martially valid way. This is something that I know I am not very good at. I admire those who can pull it off.

Now, sometimes the lesson at hand is how to use structure, mechanics, breath, movement, ... to neutralize resistance. Sometimes the lesson at hand is adapting in randori. Sometimes it is to learn why the technique nage is supposed to be doing (based on what the teacher showed) is appropriate based on what uke does. This may take some trial and error, but this is a different kind of testing on uke's part - and nage must be actively involved.

As for slapping, if the purpose of the slap is to distribute the force of the fall, it would seem better to slap with the whole body... as long as the body maintains a structure that can distribute the force safely without centralizing the impact into one vulnerable area. That said - slapping does not increase the force of the impact either. The only way for that to happen would be for slapping to somehow change the mass of the falling body or the acceleration of gravity. But it does localize the force rather than distribute it. I think there are ways to make contact with the arm softly - before the whole body hits - and begin the distribution of force earlier, which is what the soft breakfalls do.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by cguzik : 11-28-2006 at 08:18 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 08:31 AM   #57
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Well said Chris.

[quote=Chris Guzik]This has been an interesting thread. A couple of points came to mind that I'd like to add:

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 08:35 AM   #58
heathererandolph
Dojo: Kokikai Aikido Boston
Location: Boston
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 121
United_States
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

I agree with what you said. Although it sometimes bothers me when a student seems very obedient during demonstration then when I go to throw that person during practice they seem just the opposite! I think"what happened?" I don't really want students to be nice just for the sake of demonstration. It's good to feel that the technique is being effective. Some uke seem to specialize in being difficult. Being difficult has it's time and place, but for some students I think it might hinder their learning experience to be difficult because it takes the focus off of their own learning and puts it onto their partner.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 08:44 AM   #59
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

This seems to be a concern only to arts that do not have sparing. In judo or bjj. If the instructor is using me for a demo, I am going to go along with his instruction and attempt to make him look good doing it. If I question his instruction, there is sparing time to get with him and see what he is all about. Judo and BJJ instructors that are above getting on the mat and throwing and tapping their students (unless they are age or injury limited) are not really worth my time.

Is this a common problem in the tomiki branch of aikido where they do have a means to test their teachers ability? I would have to guess probably not.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 08:54 AM   #60
G DiPierro
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 365
United_States
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

OK fine, I didn°«t want to go into details but obviously people are all imagining this happened in whatever way fits their assumptions. So here°«s what actually happened. About 15 minutes into the first class of a seminar, Saotome sees that my partners are having difficulty with the technique (another issue entirely), and walks over to me extending his hands for ryotetori. I had, of course, never taken ukemi for him before in the other times I had trained with him.

I gave him my standard grab that I would give a shihan in such a case. I°«m not trying to resist him, per se, at this point, but I°«m also not just giving him my center. I want to see what he°«s got, but I have no need to show him up in front of his students either. They are paying to see him teach, not to see me shut him down, so I°«m going to let him throw me if actually does something that would move my center, which should not be too hard for someone at his level. This is what I would do with almost any teacher on the first attack.

However, after I grabbed him, but before he actually tried to move me, he looks down at my hands, looks back up at me, and says °»grab strong.°… I took that as an invitation to try to shut him down, and as challenge to do so. Remember, he had not tried to move me yet but was already asking for more resistance. OK, you got it.

This was not a case of simply knowing what was coming. He tried the first technique, and when that didn°«t go, tried about 4 or 5 more other ones (it°«s oyo henka, or freestyle, at this point), which also didn°«t work, then finally tried a judo-style sutemi waza where we both ended up on the ground, and he neither threw me or ended up with superior ground position there. At that point he was obviously getting quite frustrated with what was happening, but he had already laid down the gauntlet, so we had to play this out to the end, and he, of course, had to save face by eventually throwing me. So we stand up again and reset, he tries another 4 or 5 unsuccessful attempts to throw me, then finally gets off a clean throw, walks away, and doesn°«t try to throw me again the rest of the seminar.

Keep in mind that at no point was I trying to counter or throw him. I just gave my strongest grab, as he had asked for, in which I actively grounded all of his attempts to control my center. Yes, he finally got off a throw, but he had plenty of time and essentially I had already proved my point by then (which was: don°«t ask someone, and particularly me, for more resistance when you don°«t yet know how much you are getting), and so naturally I was already starting to ease up. We couldn't go on all day like that, and I know that I have to let him save face and eventually throw me here as well since that°«s how things are done with Japanese teachers.

After class I talked to him a bit and he told me that I was °»very strong.°… Certainly he didn°«t mean in a raw physical sense, since I don°«t weigh much more than 150 and haven°«t done any weight training in over a decade. So what°«s the point of all of this? Simply that Saotome does not train with resistance, nor do his students make any real attempts to resist him, and he was unprepared to deal with someone who does. This is par for the course for the Aikikai teachers I have trained with, including many other 8-dans. Does this make me °»better°… than him? Not necessarily, but I think it makes my training methodology better than his. He°«s got about 40 years of practice on me, but I°«m pretty sure that given the way I train, I°«ll be better than he is today in another 40 years, and probably in much less time than that.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 11-28-2006 at 08:56 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 09:01 AM   #61
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Hello Don. At my dojo I encourage the judo, karate and Aikido folks to mix it up on occasion. It is by no means required but occasionally folks just need to see where they are really at. It is done in a friendly manner and sometimes the Aikido folk get the awaking they need to assist their further development

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
This seems to be a concern only to arts that do not have sparing.
Is this a common problem in the tomiki branch of aikido where they do have a means to test their teachers ability? I would have to guess probably not.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 09:18 AM   #62
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

I will speak with him about this at first opportunity and if he confirms it an apology will be in order from me.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
OK fine, I didn°«t want to go into details but obviously people are all imagining this happened in whatever way fits their assumptions. So here°«s what actually happened. About 15 minutes into the first class of a seminar, Saotome sees that my partners are having difficulty with the technique (another issue entirely), and walks over to me extending his hands for ryotetori. I had, of course, never taken ukemi for him before in the other times I had trained with him.

I gave him my standard grab that I would give a shihan in such a case. I°«m not trying to resist him, per se, at this point, but I°«m also not just giving him my center. I want to see what he°«s got, but I have no need to show him up in front of his students either. They are paying to see him teach, not to see me shut him down, so I°«m going to let him throw me if actually does something that would move my center, which should not be too hard for someone at his level. This is what I would do with almost any teacher on the first attack.

However, after I grabbed him, but before he actually tried to move me, he looks down at my hands, looks back up at me, and says °»grab strong.°… I took that as an invitation to try to shut him down, and as challenge to do so. Remember, he had not tried to move me yet but was already asking for more resistance. OK, you got it.

This was not a case of simply knowing what was coming. He tried the first technique, and when that didn°«t go, tried about 4 or 5 more other ones (it°«s oyo henka, or freestyle, at this point), which also didn°«t work, then finally tried a judo-style sutemi waza where we both ended up on the ground, and he neither threw me or ended up with superior ground position there. At that point he was obviously getting quite frustrated with what was happening, but he had already laid down the gauntlet, so we had to play this out to the end, and he, of course, had to save face by eventually throwing me. So we stand up again and reset, he tries another 4 or 5 unsuccessful attempts to throw me, then finally gets off a clean throw, walks away, and doesn°«t try to throw me again the rest of the seminar.

Keep in mind that at no point was I trying to counter or throw him. I just gave my strongest grab, as he had asked for, in which I actively grounded all of his attempts to control my center. Yes, he finally got off a throw, but he had plenty of time and essentially I had already proved my point by then (which was: don°«t ask someone, and particularly me, for more resistance when you don°«t yet know how much you are getting), and so naturally I was already starting to ease up. We couldn't go on all day like that, and I know that I have to let him save face and eventually throw me here as well since that°«s how things are done with Japanese teachers.

After class I talked to him a bit and he told me that I was °»very strong.°… Certainly he didn°«t mean in a raw physical sense, since I don°«t weigh much more than 150 and haven°«t done any weight training in over a decade. So what°«s the point of all of this? Simply that Saotome does not train with resistance, nor do his students make any real attempts to resist him, and he was unprepared to deal with someone who does. This is par for the course for the Aikikai teachers I have trained with, including many other 8-dans. Does this make me °»better°… than him? Not necessarily, but I think it makes my training methodology better than his. He°«s got about 40 years of practice on me, but I°«m pretty sure that given the way I train, I°«ll be better than he is today in another 40 years, and probably in much less time than that.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 09:27 AM   #63
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

It's a good story (true, skewed, etc., I don't care), but it makes a point that I've tried to make before. Limiting yourself to "throws" pretty much puts you in a too-limited-response position. I think I can probably stop most people from moving either themselves or me if we limit it to them trying to get a throw-technique in. If we open it up to other responses (say, including some of the sharper, more sudden percussive responses a la Shioda or using good atemi), I wouldn't make the bet. I know that if all bets are open, no one can hold me like that and they'd be foolish to try.

So yes, given where I know someone is going to limit their responses to attempting to throw me (even someone who has some jin skills, although the top-level guys are a different story), I can stop them. Not that I think it would show much more than given a known set of constraints I can mess up a demonstration-level technique.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 09:38 AM   #64
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's a good story (true, skewed, etc., I don't care), but it makes a point that I've tried to make before. Limiting yourself to "throws" pretty much puts you in a too-limited-response position.
Mike

Hi Mike, I can't speak for other teachers but Saotome Sensei and the ASU instructors by no means are limited to throws. We hit and even kick. Ya some folks just can;t deal with that. However to hit or kick someone who is unaware of their openings proves little. We use strikes to hurt or destroy - to enter the mind through the body - or to enter the body through the mind. Some people are never aware of these openings and do not move to close them so making the technique next to impossible. A strike is in about 99 percent of the stuff we do even if it is not an overt strike but a subtle one relaying on intent rather than impact.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 10:10 AM   #65
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

I've started a new thread under Training on opening the joints since there were some questions (Posts #94 and #95), and anyway I think it's interesting, and separate from this discussion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 10:14 AM   #66
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:
[snip]Well, you insulted my teacher's reputation with your spurious claim. [snip]
I don't think it would be accurate to call Mr. DiPierro's claim spurious without first checking with Mr. Saotome about his recollection (if any) of the exchange.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 10:15 AM   #67
Robert Rumpf
Dojo: Academy of Zen and the Ways
Location: Kailua, HI
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 164
United_States
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
OK fine, I didn°«t want to go into details but obviously people are all imagining this happened in whatever way fits their assumptions. So here°«s what actually happened. About 15 minutes into the first class of a seminar, Saotome sees that my partners are having difficulty with the technique (another issue entirely), and walks over to me extending his hands for ryotetori. I had, of course, never taken ukemi for him before in the other times I had trained with him.

I gave him my standard grab that I would give a shihan in such a case. I°«m not trying to resist him, per se, at this point, but I°«m also not just giving him my center. I want to see what he°«s got, but I have no need to show him up in front of his students either. They are paying to see him teach, not to see me shut him down, so I°«m going to let him throw me if actually does something that would move my center, which should not be too hard for someone at his level. This is what I would do with almost any teacher on the first attack.

However, after I grabbed him, but before he actually tried to move me, he looks down at my hands, looks back up at me, and says °»grab strong.°… I took that as an invitation to try to shut him down, and as challenge to do so. Remember, he had not tried to move me yet but was already asking for more resistance. OK, you got it.

This was not a case of simply knowing what was coming. He tried the first technique, and when that didn°«t go, tried about 4 or 5 more other ones (it°«s oyo henka, or freestyle, at this point), which also didn°«t work, then finally tried a judo-style sutemi waza where we both ended up on the ground, and he neither threw me or ended up with superior ground position there. At that point he was obviously getting quite frustrated with what was happening, but he had already laid down the gauntlet, so we had to play this out to the end, and he, of course, had to save face by eventually throwing me. So we stand up again and reset, he tries another 4 or 5 unsuccessful attempts to throw me, then finally gets off a clean throw, walks away, and doesn°«t try to throw me again the rest of the seminar.

Keep in mind that at no point was I trying to counter or throw him. I just gave my strongest grab, as he had asked for, in which I actively grounded all of his attempts to control my center. Yes, he finally got off a throw, but he had plenty of time and essentially I had already proved my point by then (which was: don°«t ask someone, and particularly me, for more resistance when you don°«t yet know how much you are getting), and so naturally I was already starting to ease up. We couldn't go on all day like that, and I know that I have to let him save face and eventually throw me here as well since that°«s how things are done with Japanese teachers.

After class I talked to him a bit and he told me that I was °»very strong.°… Certainly he didn°«t mean in a raw physical sense, since I don°«t weigh much more than 150 and haven°«t done any weight training in over a decade. So what°«s the point of all of this? Simply that Saotome does not train with resistance, nor do his students make any real attempts to resist him, and he was unprepared to deal with someone who does. This is par for the course for the Aikikai teachers I have trained with, including many other 8-dans. Does this make me °»better°… than him? Not necessarily, but I think it makes my training methodology better than his. He°«s got about 40 years of practice on me, but I°«m pretty sure that given the way I train, I°«ll be better than he is today in another 40 years, and probably in much less time than that.
You should start giving seminars. Ohio is pretty centrally located.

Typically, when I've been told to "grab strong" that means that I should attack with an actual martial goal, or at the least to attack with a consistent and tenable connection, not with my goal being the countering of any movement away from the grabbed position, while ignoring the rest of nage's assets and my surroundings.

Did you actually try to attack Saotome-sensei, or just attack his technique? You're lucky he didn't kick you in the nuts, head butt you, or worse.

For what's it worth, I had exactly this same experience with a 1st kyu at my first dojo when I was maybe a 5th kyu during practice of kokyu tanden ho. I completely stopped his movement using pure stength. I felt SO proud of myself. It was only after class when it dawned on me what an idiot I was being and how useless of a partner I was.

This realization was reinforced when (at about the same point in my training) I shut down a shodan who was attempting to do ryotetori tenchinage. I grabbed lightly, and every time he would try to move, I'd force us back to that central position. He got extremely frustrated with me, but I thought I was just being a good uke.

He pointed out how vulnerable I was, how pointless his attempts at tenchinage would be with me being in my position and given my actions, how I was not helping him to learn, and how non-productive I was being in general. There were a lot of other things he could have said, that I know now, and maybe some other things he could have done to continue the scenario and I would not have learned the lesson I did.

I have since resolved to do better.

I'm very grateful to those seniors for being polite enough not to hurt me, and for not holding my rudeness and stupidity against me, and I try to remember that gratitude every time I am on the receiving end of this phase that practitioners inevitably go through.

There seems to always be a danger though for a practitioner to not grow out of this phase, to be stuck in this negation mode. I see that idea echoed in Harden's comments about becoming unthrowable, although I don't think that's at all what he really means. I think he means being unbeatable in sparring (or rolling, or whatever), and after all, sparring is just a game, and becoming unbeatable is a goal in learning a game.

This same idea of negation is what, I believe, is captured in that first koan in the Mumonkan, at least from what I can gather. The mistake people make is that they neglect the idea of the second.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 10:21 AM   #68
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Shouldn't one be able to effect a throw from a committed hand grab in aikido, by just connecting with the grabber? Or do you have to hit or kick to loosen the grab, first?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 11:04 AM   #69
Robert Rumpf
Dojo: Academy of Zen and the Ways
Location: Kailua, HI
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 164
United_States
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Shouldn't one be able to effect a throw from a committed hand grab in aikido, by just connecting with the grabber? Or do you have to hit or kick to loosen the grab, first?
That is why I said this (regarding my experiences with some prior sempai):

Quote:
There were a lot of other things he could have said, that I know now, and maybe some other things he could have done to continue the scenario and I would not have learned the lesson I did.
The hit that I mentioned is not to loosen the grab, but to shatter or change the nature of the connection. A rude word would have done as well, most likely, and I've seen others do it with a glance, a tickle, or a bite. I suppose you could also do it via "body skills" or I'd most likely do it by inducing movement.

But, that's not the point that I was trying to make.

I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened between DiPierro and Saotome-sensei.. nor do I really care. Saotome-sensei needs no defense from the likes of me - the man is a phenomena, and if I could do Aikido 1/100th as well as him, than I would have nothing to fear on any mat. I was just relating experiences similar to the post, and what I've gained from it.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 11:05 AM   #70
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 632
United_States
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Shouldn't one be able to effect a throw from a committed hand grab in aikido, by just connecting with the grabber? Or do you have to hit or kick to loosen the grab, first?
Cady,

It's a good question. But I'd back up one step and ask:

"What is a committed hand grab?"

Committed to what?

If the commitment is solely to holding nage off at a particular range, there is no commitment to attack and atemi is off the table, I think that's judo.

Matsumura Yoshio Sensei used to tell me to resist and hold him in place. Then he'd flip me like a pancake -- as lightly as you please -- and tell me that I he wanted me to firm up and resist more.

Admittedly, he had me grab at the collar and the elbow, so the shorter ma-ai gave him a little bit more to work with than simply ryotedori, but it was a different paradigm than typical aikido practice.

Perspective on the assumptions built in to the paradigms is one of the reasons I've long advocated supplemental training in judo at one point or another.

My .02

FL
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 11:22 AM   #71
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Hmm, a commited grab. It has not been in my personal experience that one grabs with the intent of just holding on. They usually grab with the intent to pull you closer, control a part of your body while they move, or to push you away. So in my mind, having someone grab you then stand there while you work a technique is really counter productive to real life. You should either intercept the grab before it happens, or once grabbed the uke should begin to pull you or push you, or move in a natural fashion to continue the attack. The grab itself is only a small part of a single committed attack. It is a setup for an attack, but not an attack itself.

For example, a judo guy does not simply grab you, he sucks you in, there is a constant pushing and pulling. A man on the street does not just hold your hand and look at you. He has a purpose for his grab. Maybe he is going to hit you with the other hand, maybe he is trying to clinch, etc.

So I guess my point is that a grab is not a commited attack (with the possible exception of grabbing to prevent a weapon being drawn, which at the range most grabs in aikido happen is not really realistic either). A grab should be part of another entire attack. If someone grabbed my hand strongly and stood there, I have no reason to use aikido. I am in no danger, there is no threat, and I could simply strike him to get him to move or let go. If a guy grabbed my hand strongly, pulled hard to bring me into his oncomming right fist, that is a committed attack, and one that requires me to act.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 11:29 AM   #72
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Shouldn't one be able to effect a throw from a committed hand grab in aikido, by just connecting with the grabber? Or do you have to hit or kick to loosen the grab, first?

Absolutely Cady! One should always be in a position to strike or kick but one does not always needed to do so. It is called the dead angle or ShiShikaku (sp?) and as uke attacks one should always move there leaving uke vulnerable by the sheer nature of the attack.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 11:44 AM   #73
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Hmm, a commited grab. It has not been in my personal experience that one grabs with the intent of just holding on. They usually grab with the intent to pull you closer, control a part of your body while they move, or to push you away. So in my mind, having someone grab you then stand there while you work a technique is really counter productive to real life. You should either intercept the grab before it happens, or once grabbed the uke should begin to pull you or push you, or move in a natural fashion to continue the attack. The grab itself is only a small part of a single committed attack. It is a setup for an attack, but not an attack itself.

For example, a judo guy does not simply grab you, he sucks you in, there is a constant pushing and pulling. A man on the street does not just hold your hand and look at you. He has a purpose for his grab. Maybe he is going to hit you with the other hand, maybe he is trying to clinch, etc.

So I guess my point is that a grab is not a commited attack (with the possible exception of grabbing to prevent a weapon being drawn, which at the range most grabs in aikido happen is not really realistic either). A grab should be part of another entire attack. If someone grabbed my hand strongly and stood there, I have no reason to use aikido. I am in no danger, there is no threat, and I could simply strike him to get him to move or let go. If a guy grabbed my hand strongly, pulled hard to bring me into his oncomming right fist, that is a committed attack, and one that requires me to act.
Well-written, Don.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 12:36 PM   #74
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Thanks for the input, Rob, Fred, Don and Dennis. By "committed," I mean, is the person putting strength in their arms and hands as they grab, with their body in it, too? It's not just a limp-armed, limp-handed clasp, is it? I'm thinking that if they are stepping forward, reaching and grabbing to pull or even to shove you, there should be some energy in their action, yes?

If yes, do you try to capture that incoming energy and use it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 01:15 PM   #75
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 393
Offline
Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
....However, after I grabbed him, but before he actually tried to move me, he looks down at my hands, looks back up at me, and says °»grab strong.°… I took that as an invitation to try to shut him down, and as challenge to do so. Remember, he had not tried to move me yet but was already asking for more resistance. OK, you got it.....
You mistook his words. He only said to grab strong and said nothing about trying to resist him. You must have given him a very limp grab initially. I tell new people to grab strong as well. When I do this, I'm asking only for the hand muscles to tighten up so that I can actually feel some connection there. When you resist, you also tighten up the muscles in the forearm and biceps. One can grab strong and yet still have the rest of their arm be relaxed, I do this all the time.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ueshiba taking Ukemi Ellis Amdur General 200 03-27-2007 04:40 PM
What is good ukemi? Jerb Training 7 01-06-2007 05:29 AM
Personal Views on Ukemi mjchip Training 15 12-21-2006 07:25 PM
"Silent" Ukemi Jerb Training 11 12-20-2005 04:37 PM
causing no (serious) harm jss General 92 05-06-2005 10:16 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:33 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate