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Old 11-27-2006, 09:22 AM   #26
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

It's just a discussion, no-one is being forced to follow one path or another. People who wish, have the information coming at them that they might never have seen were it not for this forum. Others can ignore it. I don't think it is a good idea to try and stifle this discussion, partly because in any case the person posting (in this case you) is also making blatant assumptions about what aikido is.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:52 AM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
Little anecdote from my dojo. Abe Seiseki sensei doesn't do big throws. And it finally dawned on me that really, there isn't a particular need to actually throw. So he does an almost invisible movement, which takes center, and that is it. From there, anything else goes. People stand there waiting to be bodily thrown. But that's not the purpose of the exercise. Response is. He wants the other to do something once the center is taken: drop down and attack his leg, or otherwise respond, getting back center while continuing the attack. He asks people to do ushiro ukemi once they have responded, but the ukemi is up to the person, just practice in rolling, massage of the joints, the skin, overall loosening up. Not the result of the "technique".

Duke Mu of Chin said to Po Lo: 'You are now advanced in years. Is there any member of your family whom I could employ to look for horses in your stead?' Po Lo replied: 'A good horse can be picked out by its general build and appearance. But the superlative horse - one that raises no dust and leaves no tracks - is something evanescent and fleeting, elusive as thin air. The talents of my sons lie on a lower plane altogether; they call tell a good horse when they see one, but they cannot tell a superlative horse. I have a friend, however, one Chin-fang Kao, a hawker of fuel and vegetables, who in things appertaining to horses is nowise my inferior. Pray see him.'
Duke Mu did so, and subsequently dispatched him on the quest for a steed. Three months later, lie returned with the news that lie had found one. 'It is now in Shach'iu,' he added.' What kind of a horse is it?'asked the Duke. 'Oh, it is a dun-colored mare,' was the reply. However, someone being sent to fetch it, the annual turned out to be a coal-black stallion! Much displeased, the Duke sent for Po Lo. 'That friend of yours,' lie said, 'whom I commissioned to look for a horse, has made a fine mess of it. Why, lie cannot even distinguish a beast's color or sex! What oil earth can he know about horses?' Po Lo heaved a sigh of satisfaction. 'Has he really got as far as that?' he cried. 'Ah, then he is worth ten thousand of me put together. There is no comparison between us. What Kao keeps in view is the spiritual mechanism. hi making sure of the essential, he forgets the homely details; intent on the inward qualities, lie loses sight of the external. He sees what he wants to see, and not what he does not want to see. He looks at the things he ought to look at, and neglects those that need not be looked at. So clever a judge of horses is Kao, that lie has it in him to judge something better than horses.'
When the horse arrived, it turned out indeed to be a superlative animal.


from J.D. Salinger: "Raise High the Roofbeam, Carpenters"
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:27 AM   #28
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Hello Cady,
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Jim, do you -- as Dan describes -- ask someone to fight instead of train with you.
Try attacking your opponent on the way down or over.
Try retainging retained pressures in your body where you bounce and keep the tensions more inside
Try taking them into a guard on the way down
When they lock you, absorb it, and head-butt them or kick them in the nuts.
?

If so, that's great because it means you aren't just taking ukemi (whether rolling out or slapping mats!). It's possible to train this way with control and without wrecking each other.

I've just yet to see an aikido dojo that trains this way.
Well, please come on over the next time you're in the DC area. In my dojo, we do try attacking our partners on the way down or over, if they present an opening to do so. We do the same thing with taking them into a guard (or some other kaeshi-waza) if the opening is there.

What do you (and Dan) mean by "retaining retained pressures in your body where you bounce and keep the tensions more inside"? If you mean "absorbing an attempted lock and using the power from the partner doing the locking" to exploit an opening, yes, we do that, too.

As far as head-butting and groin-kicking, we stay aware of those potential openings and avoid offering them. (As an aside, Mike Lasky, our dojo's technical adviser, trained occasionally with the late Terry Dobson. Dobson used to throw a back-fist at the crotch of anyone who did irimi-nage on him and failed to step through. We avoid presenting that opening.) If someone attempts to lock me or freeze my technique and I see an opening, I will attack it.
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Here's the description of aikido posted on Ikeda's dojo website:

Aikido is not primarily a system of combat, but rather a means of self-cultivation and improvement. Aikido has no tournaments, competitions, contests, or "sparring." Instead, all aikido techniques are learned cooperatively at a pace commensurate with the abilities of each trainee. According to the founder, the goal of aikido is not the defeat of others, but the defeat of the negative characteristics which inhabit one's own mind and inhibit its functioning.
But have you visited his dojo, or taken any classes with him? And if you attended a seminar at which he taught, did you get a chance to put your hands on him? I expect more from you than, "I saw it on the web."
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
I still have my doubts about aikido being in any way a "system of combat." Especially when the description goes on to state that there is no "sparring" or way to test one's skill. Without actual combative practice, one never can cultivate the responses and proactive conditioning necessary to make one's skills practical and applicable in combat.

Cooperation does not make for adversarial conditions that emulate real-life confrontation. "Sparring" or at least stepped-up attacks -- hands-on application of technique under unpredictable conditions and stresses -- is crucial to conditioning. Furthermore, practioners must let themselves be confronted with increasing levels of aggression, beyond their present ability to handle it. Like weight-lifting, you have to "break down tissue to rebuild as something stronger."

If you want to condition for combat, you must train actively for it. Cooperative "exchange of energy" isn't going to cut it. This is something I have observed and practiced for 30 years, and for two decades before I met Dan. It's just basic combat sense.
Well, this brings me back to your (and Dan's) first question: do I "ask someone to fight instead of train with [me]". Leaving aside your "cooperative 'exchange of energy'" straw-man, my answer is no, I don't. When you ask someone to fight, that's the beginning of a duel. I would rather prepare for an ambush. I do not deny that competition is one tool that we may use to prepare for combat --- but it is one way, not the way.

The following is from a letter from Jeff Cooper, founder of Gunsite, to Michael Harries, another senior firearms instructor. It is quite applicable to the question of the value of sparring.

Back in the Dark Ages, when we began practical pistol competition, we did not know what we were up against. How should we have known, with no precedent to teach us?

As you and I have both discovered, the problems in putting the art together may not be insurmountable, but they are dreadfully daunting.

A. Well-conducted competition is the only path to excellence in the combat arts. This concept is beyond the military, the police or any public program. The question is not whether a certain number of people can be brought up to a certain level, but just how high that level can be placed. This can only be determined by individual competition.

B. Competition, however, brings out the worst in people, who, in general, do not seek excellence, but rather recognition. Excellence and recognition can only be brought into coincidence by an authoritarian program conducted by a person or persons in whom the principles of the exercise are exemplified.

These two discoveries conflict with each other, as we found out right away, and our efforts failed, both nationally and internationally.


In my opinion, the practice and teaching methods of aikido (as I have experienced them) recognize this conflict, and seek to produce proficiency and excellence in the practitioner by choosing a third path which transcends either solo kata or competition against another, by directing the competitive urge into a contest with oneself. The proficient aikidoka must excel in the role of uke as well as nage. This goes directly against the desire to win (by mastering a game ) that sparring inevitably inculcates (see Discovery B above).

You and I have trained in martial arts for about the same time. I began with Uechi-ryu karate-do in 1977 (with Bob Galeone), and continued with aikido in 1984 (with Saotome-sensei). I've also taken firearms courses at Gunsite, and with John Farnam and John Pepper as well. I am willing to match my understanding of "basic combat sense" with yours. Incidentally, I spent most of the summer of 1981 in Okinawa practicing Uechi-ryu. One evening after class, one of the instructors showed me a letter from a senior American Uechi-ryu teacher. The Okinawan instructor said to me, "This man tells everyone he has been training for twenty years. As far as we in Okinawa are concerned, he has been training one year, twenty times!" My interest in this discussion (despite the contempt you and Dan often display for aikido) is to make sure that the Okinawan teacher's comment never applies to me --- I'm sure you understand.

Jim
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:50 AM   #29
DaveS
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Ppl who try to neutralize all throws become simply stiff and rigid. Aikido is about developing strong, flexible body that can generate power by focus and coordination all its elements. Rolling forward and backward is one of important tools in this process. It develops also special spirit of non-resistance in the moment of contact. This way of practice let student understand useless of competition,
It's funny you should say that, because I was about to mention that one of the skills that comes to the fore in shodokan randori (both competitive and semi-cooperative) is neutralizing an attempted throw by being soft and moving with the applied force, relaxing, bending, twisting and redirecting in such a way that you stay on posture. Playing with an experienced nage (which I'm not - I'm picking this up from experience of being thrown not of throwing), becoming stiff and rigid will only help you for a very limited amount of time - about as long as it takes them to adapt their technique to move with your resistance rather than against it.

On the other hand, when something comes on that's too good to slip out of, you quickly learn the value of good breakfalls too...

Oh, and a side question coming from one of Dan's comments - what are the rules in shiai bouts regarding grabbing onto nage (or tanto, I suppose, if they're going for a throw) while they throw so that if their balance is bad they fall over too? Is it rewarded because it's considered a legitimate way of encouraging people to stay on posture while they throw or penalised as being against the spirit of the thing?
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:53 AM   #30
James Davis
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"Television commercial"?????? You're just a puppy. When I was a kid, if we wanted a drink of water, we had to make our own by combining Hydrogen and Oxygen.
Must have hurt like all get out!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:19 AM   #31
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Hi Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Jim Writes
These always correspond to real value in actual combat and to very great efficacy
Just to be clear, I was quoting E.J. Harrison's comments on the usefulness of aikido in chapter seven of "The Fighting Spirit of Japan". And yes, I have re-read the chapter about Harrison's encounters with aiki. I look forward to discussing it with you at a future date, as long as we're not going engage in an ear-pulling match.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Jim
I'm pretty sure you and Cady.....are using a different definition of combatives. To be clear, when she said "combatives" I think she meant different things then you are prepared to discuss as normal in your regular training. Not saying good or bad- just methods and approaches.
For instance when Is the last time you punched someone square in the face in your dojo? Or even tried in a repeated fashion without let up when they were trying to enter-in.
Heck when was the last time you sincerely ....tried....to punch someone in the mouth for trying to joint lock you?
Saturday, November 25 --- but my partner (a senior law enforcement officer, much tougher than I) blocked my attempt.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
And since it is the standard shtick and written about and discussed "that aikido techniques are too dangerous not to take ukemi and can kill." Just what do you think you posses as a skill set that would cause me much "danger" at all were I to fight you?
That's not my shtick, as those who know me will tell you. As for my "skill set", I'd rely on surprise and ruthlessness, given that you outweigh me by around 60 pounds, and have far more experience in the combative sports arena than I.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
For me "practicing ukemi is an entire discipline of recieving you while fighting. Not, let me be clear, ...NOT.....practicing falling down.
I'm not going to get into it on the net but there is a dynamic in the body, that changes you when you are not giving in but fighting back. It has to do with the effect of intent on the frame and connection. You will neither act the same or be perceived the same.
I agree with you. In my practice, ukemi is active, not passive, and is more concerned with the potential for achieving reversals than "falling safely".
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
And though I have heard many teachers blather about ukemi I've not heard many at all talk about what Intent and framing does to deconstruct the attack of the attacker.
Ukemi as I've seen it from 8th dans is for Martial arts dupes.
Maybe you need to see (and feel) a few more eighth dan. Or if you can deign to lower yourself , a seventh dan like Ikeda-sensei, or a couple of sixth dan in my neck of the woods. By the way, it's comments like that one that make you so lovable.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Rolls and breakfalls and such I show and make sure men have it, but that is about 5% of Ukemi. You practice to get them and burn them in. Then spend the rest of your days making dam sure it doesn't happen.
But since nobody is infallible, it's nice to know you've got that five percent, isn't it?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
And Ellis? I've spent some time in detailed discusions with Ellis about his ideas of Ukemi. I think you may be confusing his ideas for better "Aikido Ukemi" as opposed to his ideas for actual fighting.
Ellis has answered you to my satisfaction. (Thanks, Ellis!)

See you on the mat eventually, I hope!

Jim
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Old 11-27-2006, 12:08 PM   #32
G DiPierro
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Ukemi as I've seen it from 8th dans is for Martial arts dupes.
Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:
Maybe you need to see (and feel) a few more eighth dan. Or if you can deign to lower yourself , a seventh dan like Ikeda-sensei, or a couple of sixth dan in my neck of the woods. By the way, it's comments like that one that make you so lovable.
Jim, I've taken ukemi for nearly a half-dozen Aikikai 8-dans and I generally agree with his statement. My opinion is that all but one of these teachers expect and require their ukes to "give" them the technique. In other words, if I were to realisitically attack them rather than just letting them take control of my center, they could not throw me. I don't know Dan, but based on his posts, I'd guess that if they can't throw me, they probably can't throw him either.

Giancarlo DiPierro
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Old 11-27-2006, 12:51 PM   #33
Thomas Campbell
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Thomas...not you too?


[snip]

I give up
Don't give up, Dan. I'm sorry if my meaning wasn't clear. What I intended to say is that in my own jujutsu training we did in fact focus primarily on the fall: first surviving the impact, then working for position to escape or counterattack after the throw. The idea of attacking the thrower on the way down was not something I encountered in that practice.

As far as not being thrown in the first place, sure we played around with footwork and avoiding the set-up for the throw. But we didn't actively cultivate the sorts of internal body skill you and others have written about in this context. My coach was pretty skilled, but back then for me it was more blind repetition and haphazard experimentation, not systematic exploration.

So I've had my eyes opened to a couple of important (and for me, new) considerations by this thread. Thanks.
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Old 11-27-2006, 01:28 PM   #34
DH
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Hi Tom
We'll have to wait till we get together to hash it out. I still want to keep it with just a the few who will do the work. The ideas are complex and the training painful and difficult. I have a couple of Aikido guys trying it here now and I'm meeting two more next week. Their trying to figure out how they can use it in Aikido and not be considered uncooperative or jerks in the dojo. I'll leave that up to them to work it in to their training styles as they see fit.
Some readers here are reducing it to street fighting and biting (of all things) because its all they can see..Its the same with internal skills and telling someone they can be pracitcally unlockable or throwable if they train a different way. They never trained that way so they can't see that either. The ukemi that is not taking ukemi is a measured training regimen and alot of work to change the way you receive force and what you do with it. What folks see as the HEART of it- strikes and such- aren't at all. They are "add-ons"...which have little to do with the intent of body conditioning and mental training in dealing with force and actively attacking. Anyway you can look at Systema and though yu will see a different body mechanic a similar idea of not being willing to go over and not collapsing structure but hitting and moving around force is still there. The attacking while going over was not my point at all. Its a very small part. Anyway, just about the whole idea of it being UFC fighting as key is backward and a crude understanding of the idea i was presenting. The body training... and creating that body... is key.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-27-2006 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 11-27-2006, 01:54 PM   #35
DH
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Thumbs up To train better

deleate double post

Last edited by DH : 11-27-2006 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:15 PM   #36
Thomas Campbell
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hi Tom
[snip]The ideas are complex and the training painful and difficult. I have a couple of Aikido guys trying it here now and I'm meeting two more next week. Their trying to figure out how they can use it in Aikido and not be considered uncooperative or jerks in the dojo. I'll leave that up to them to work it in to their training styles as they see fit.
Some readers here are reducing it to street fighting and biting (of all things) because its all they can see..Its the same with internal skills[snip]alot of work to change the way you receive force and what you do with it. What folks see as the HEART of it- strikes and such- aren't at all. They are "add-ons"...which have little to do with the intent of body conditioning and mental training in dealing with force and actively attacking.
[snip] The attacking while going over was not my point at all. Its a very small part. Anyway, just about the whole idea of it being UFC fighting as key is backward and a crude understanding of the idea i was presenting. The body training... and creating that body... is key.

Cheers
Dan
Not to minimize the physical effort and pain, but it seems like the primary beginning change in training is mental . . . in the sense of a paradigm shift. That sets up the motivation and framework for understanding the body conditioning and training.

Not easy. It's good that aikidoka working from your point of view are left to integrate/incorporate their insights and physical training into how they practice and teach aikido. It will be interesting to see how it goes (and best of luck to them).
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:17 PM   #37
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Great thread.
I didn't even know I'd started one.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
They all look amazingly the same.
And slapping the mat in breakfalls.
Or maybe you just do the softer style that gently rolls along
Or maybe not.
I'm sure yours is different.
Dan
Yes.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
We learn to slap because it gets the body into a safer position when landing. It supposedly also distributes the force when landing. Again, this is a safety tactic so that a student doesn't end up landing on their head and/or neck.
Mark can you explain with a couple of technique examples how the slapping or intention to slap gets one into a safer position falling than if one doesn't slap. Thanks.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"Real Men" (tm) don't need to worry about it.
Funny.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Why is there no serious vested interest in teaching your students to incrementally stop you dead in your tracks?
Gold. I'd like some pointers on how to INCREMENTALLY train better stuff. I use the word 'stuff' to avoid words like 'resistance', 'balance', 'ukemi', etc even though I kinda mean them.
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:46 PM   #38
Dennis Hooker
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
You consider aikido to be a combat art?

Hay Cady you cutie I don't.

Of course I don't agree that most of the other crap out there is combat art either. Folks agreeing to interact within cretin parameters. For combat give me a gun, I am highly qualified in that area. Short of that I agree to operate within parameters just like everyone else. I hate Aikido that is some kind of bastardized jujitsu with make-believe winners and losers. Folks don't know what they are doing or why they are doing it and it makes for a very weak ass art. It also gives a since of self worth that is greatly out of proportion with reality. Just so folks see me as an equal optometry prick I don't think much of those arts that offer pain as a badge of skill either. I don't believe pain makes you stronger. If it did I would be one strong dude. Pain hurts and if it is unnecessary hurt it is worse than useless it is destructive. No pain no gain is bullshit, it leads to joint replacement in later life.

Oh and as for slapping the ground or concrete or any other hard surface it is a bad idea. Use the soles of you foot if you can and hopefully you will be wearing a shoe. Baring that I hang on and hope when he lands on me I don't break any more ribs like in the judo days.

Dennis (a self made man, a product of unskilled labor) Hooker

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 11-27-2006 at 02:49 PM.

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Old 11-27-2006, 02:58 PM   #39
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Giancarlo,
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
Yes, I have taken ukemi for [Saotome-sensei]. Once. He did not have a good experience, and declined to try it again.
I forgot to ask, when and where do you claim that this occurred?

Jim
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Old 11-27-2006, 03:07 PM   #40
Dennis Hooker
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:
Giancarlo,I forgot to ask, when and where do you claim that this occurred?

Jim
It doesn't matter Jim. For this guy to say this it is obvious to me he demonstrated a total lack of skill (or he is lying) and Sensei, being the gentleman he is, did not wish to hurt him or cause him more embarrassment. That is why he would not use him a second time.

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Old 11-27-2006, 04:58 PM   #41
Cady Goldfield
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Hay Cady you cutie I don't.

Of course I don't agree that most of the other crap out there is combat art either. Folks agreeing to interact within cretin parameters. For combat give me a gun, I am highly qualified in that area. Short of that I agree to operate within parameters just like everyone else. I hate Aikido that is some kind of bastardized jujitsu with make-believe winners and losers. Folks don't know what they are doing or why they are doing it and it makes for a very weak ass art. It also gives a since of self worth that is greatly out of proportion with reality. Just so folks see me as an equal optometry prick I don't think much of those arts that offer pain as a badge of skill either. I don't believe pain makes you stronger. If it did I would be one strong dude. Pain hurts and if it is unnecessary hurt it is worse than useless it is destructive. No pain no gain is bullshit, it leads to joint replacement in later life.

Oh and as for slapping the ground or concrete or any other hard surface it is a bad idea. Use the soles of you foot if you can and hopefully you will be wearing a shoe. Baring that I hang on and hope when he lands on me I don't break any more ribs like in the judo days.

Dennis (a self made man, a product of unskilled labor) Hooker
Hey, Dennis (no slacker in the "cutie" department yourself). I would expect a commonsense reply like that from you, because you actually have undergone the proverbial Martial Arts Baptism by Fire, unlike some of the young pups who aren't housebroken yet around here. They'll learn, I hope. Maybe by the time they're 40 or 50.

I agree about the pain thing, if that pain is accompanied by damage. There is painful training without damage, believe it or not, and sometimes you have to feel it to know how the technique is being done. But training with painful damage... such as slapping hard surfaces or plunging fists into hot sand... because one thinks it "toughens" them, is completely useless and stoopid.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-27-2006 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 11-27-2006, 05:06 PM   #42
James Davis
 
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
Jim, I've taken ukemi for nearly a half-dozen Aikikai 8-dans and I generally agree with his statement. My opinion is that all but one of these teachers expect and require their ukes to "give" them the technique. In other words, if I were to realisitically attack them rather than just letting them take control of my center, they could not throw me. I don't know Dan, but based on his posts, I'd guess that if they can't throw me, they probably can't throw him either.

Giancarlo DiPierro
You're expected to give up your center because it is a class, not a fight. I've had students that liked to tussle around and resist being thrown, and I could still throw them... eventually. In the time that we moved around and fought for leverage, my class learned nothing. By making it not about "winning or losing" and practicing his fall, the class saw what the technique was supposed to look like. On star trek, they say resistance is futile. My students would probably say that resistance is boring!

If you train the dog to drop the ball so that it can be thrown again, the fetch game goes more smoothly. If you wrest the ball from the dog's mouth, it won't prove anything to the dog; It just becomes part of the game.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 11-27-2006, 05:49 PM   #43
Mike Sigman
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Of course I don't agree that most of the other crap out there is combat art either. Folks agreeing to interact within cretin parameters. For combat give me a gun, I am highly qualified in that area. Short of that I agree to operate within parameters just like everyone else. I hate Aikido that is some kind of bastardized jujitsu with make-believe winners and losers
Hi Dennis:

I pretty much agree with you and usually I don't comment in the "Bad Boys" posts, but this time I'm going to make an exception. All the really bad boys I've known over the years tend to keep their mouths shut about how "unbad" someone else might be ... because it might get you killed if you misjudged and real bad boys know that. So when I see someone talking about "real fighting" and how others don't do it, I tend to just shrug it off. I figure they haven't seen enough dead people and don't know better.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:06 PM   #44
Cady Goldfield
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

But, there is training that comes close to the level of stress and pressure you'd face in a life-or-death situation. The oldest of arts were developed as disciplines for killing, maiming and/or forcibly controlling. In order to stay true to those arts and to preserve their integrity, those who preserve those arts must train in the methods. They have no intention of ever killing or harming anyone with them, yet they must do what must be done to keep the system's integrity.

When one is training "to speed" in such things, the adrenaline and feeling of "floating in the grace zone" where motion and time seem to telescope out of their normal bounds, feels just like what you feel "in real life" confrontations (which I have experienced and can compare).

It has nothing to do with "We Bad," but "we must train to instill."
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:09 PM   #45
Mike Sigman
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

The real bad guys don't talk so much, Cady.
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:22 PM   #46
Cady Goldfield
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Post Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

You'd be surprised, Mike. Some of the real bad guys do not fit the stereotypical mold of real bad guys.

Hey, wasn't this supposed to be a thread about ground slapping? Boy, we have a hard time staying on topic.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-27-2006 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:37 PM   #47
xuzen
 
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
SLAP mat hard = Old Wives' Tale
Simple studies in exercise physiology may reveal the falacity of the belief that slapping things, plunging hands into sand, and all that stuff does anything other than kill nerves so you can't feel pain from the damage you are doing.
Hmmm... I can understand your reasoning wrt plunging hands into sand, but slapping of mats equals to harming forearms? Come on.. I don't buy into it. Last I check, my forearm nerves are still functioning within physiological limits, thank you.

If slapping mats equals harming forearms, by now Judo nagewaza would have been banned by the medical fraternity.

Quote:
Cady G. wrote:
But then again, people do weird stuff with their diets, and take herbs whose shape looks like a human liver, in the belief that an herb "shaped like a liver" must somehow do things to strengthen a liver! This is superstition, not knowledge.
Yeah, silly people. My granny used to tell me to take pig's brain double broilled with eggs to make me smarter... I refuse to take them, because it taste horrible (yuck) and not to mention how this dish will screw up your body cholesterol levels.

Boon.

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Old 11-28-2006, 01:02 AM   #48
G DiPierro
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Jim,

I°«m not sure how my relationship with Kanai-sensei has anything to do with this discussion or the question of whether I could stop the technique of any other shihan. But I guess all you have left in this debate is argument ad hominem. Not surprising, really, since you tried to do the same thing to Dan, and in almost the same exact way.

But since you are again belaboring this issue of rank and affiliation as you did with Dan, let me say now for the record, since for some reason it is not obvious despite the fact that I make no statements suggesting any rank or formal affiliation whatsoever on my website, that I make no claim of rank from Kanai-sensei nor do I make any claim of formal affiliation to him or to any organization to which he belonged. So that there is absolutely no confusion on this point, let me also say here that I do not currently teach or practice his characteristic °»style°… of aikido at my dojo.

As for not taking ukemi for him, I can assure you that the irony of the fact that I have physically felt the technique of every other direct student of the founder that I have trained with but never that of Kanai-sensei is not lost on me. However, he was very selective about who he used for uke. At one seminar I attended I recall that he used only one uke for the entire seminar, and it was his senior North American student, now also a shihan and 7-dan. He also did not go around demonstrating the technique on other students like many teachers do. So make of that what you will.

If you want to know when and where the incident with Saotome happened, ask around the ASU. People saw it. Although I°«m sure they remember it much differently than I did since, for ASU people (like Dennis Hooker), it couldn°«t possibly be true that anyone actually stopped Saotome°«s technique. Obviously I must be lying or the reason he couldn°«t throw me was that °»he didn°«t want to hurt me.°… Sure. If you really want to know what happened, why don°«t you just ask Saotome himself? He is your teacher, right?

Let°«s face it, the real issue here is that if you believe that nobody can stop Saotome°«s (or anyone else°«s) technique then you obviously don°«t train with any kind of real resistance. Those who do know that having your technique stopped is not uncommon and is actually not that big of a deal anyway. However, most teachers, even at the 8-dan level, do not train with real resistance, and as a result, they are wholly unprepared for it when they get it. It should be no surprise then that the ukemi their students are trained to take is not realistic, which was the original point that Dan made and which I agreed with.

But, Jim, I suppose it°«s better to keep bringing the discussion back to matters that have no bearing whatsoever on that issue, like who my iaido teacher is, since that way maybe nobody will realize that all of these things that Dan and other people are saying are true.

Best regards,
Giancarlo DiPierro
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:21 AM   #49
raul rodrigo
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Giancarlo:

So assuming for the moment you were able to stop a technique by Saotome shihan, what does that make you? Ninth dan?
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Old 11-28-2006, 03:59 AM   #50
xuzen
 
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Speaking of stopping a technique on a teacher, no biggie. My aikido teacher says, there is no shame in changing the technique to deal with the everchanging circumstances. He would simply just henka to a different technique.

Boon.

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