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Old 11-15-2006, 02:09 PM   #26
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
You're preaching to the choir brother! However, we were discussing sincere attacks - and to further elaborate - this guy can be a real stinker. During kihon waza he blocks the one way of the one technique we are allowed to train at the time. Sensei comes over - delivers a lecture and makes the insincere uke feel good because he made you look silly.
Silly may be the right counter, too.

I knew a girl once in Gainesville who, when faced with a resistant uke in the technique at issue, would resolutely goose him in the arm pit. Moved the technique right along, it did.

A strange thing, but those who most resist seem to me to be more ticklish than not. I read a study somewhere that you cannot tickle yourself because your nervous system knows its you doing it. If aikido truly breaks down the walls betweeen self and non-self, then aikidoka as a rule should be less ticklish that then general populaiton. I know I am far less ticklish than I once was.

JUN !!!! Where are you JUN ???!!!! A Great poll question :

Has aikido training made you
1) less ticklish
2) more ticklish, or
3) about the same

Tickling is a great and silly substitute for atemi, that gets the point across without the ego confrontation. She was also known to land a big wet smooch right square on uke's ear, when uke was triying to stall out an iriminage. Deafening. Or... so, I was told, .. yeah. And only slightly worse than a head butt. YMMV. Me, I'm not so cuddly.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:15 PM   #27
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

"Move to strike your honor - the defendant tickled me during cross examination" hahahah

good times.

I like your thrust though - answer ego with the outrageous. I escaped a mugging in Rome once by acting silly, screaming like a little girl and running in a silly way. When I heard my attackers start to laugh I got serious and escaped. (I was drunk and on liberty while in the Navy).

On topic - I don't think 'sincere' is about level of force, or trying to kill uke. I think it's about knowing what's coming and not using that knowledge unfairly - sort of like 'insider trading' in the stock market.

david
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:38 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

David, that's one of the funniest things I've read in a while!

Erik, you forgot the ubiquitous last question of the poll...

4) I don't do aikido...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:56 PM   #29
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
...I think most folks envision 'the fight' as some kind of one on one showdown or duel. Shame on you if this is the situation you find yourself in! I will never be in a 'fair fight' in my life! I run, hide, lie, misdirect - whatever it takes to survive. As I've matured I am polite, respectful, kind, humble and try to stay out of trouble.

Trouble is being hit in the back of the head with a 2x4 when you are distracted. Intuition is what we are training - knowing something is wrong.
Pertinent, succinct, incisive...

Very nice, David.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 11-15-2006, 04:05 PM   #30
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Erik, you forgot the ubiquitous last question of the poll...

4) I don't do aikido...
"... because it's too ticklish" ??

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:20 PM   #31
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
I like your thrust though - answer ego with the outrageous. I escaped a mugging in Rome once by acting silly, screaming like a little girl and running in a silly way.
Of course, they may have just assumed you were also Italian ...

Or, a Platonist ... seeking dialogue ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:01 AM   #32
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Sincere: wholehearted, genuine, honest

Attack: forceful, offensive, undertaking

IMHO, a "sincere attack" in training would simply be to offer enough energy that your training partner can truly learn. This would be different if the context and relationship changed.

Dialog: conversation, exchange of ideas and opinions, a discussion to resolve a conflict

I learn a lot from conversations, even those I eavesdrop on. I tend to think in conversation or dialog to see many perspectives. Its a bit crazy making at times.

I certainly understanding from training around and attending seminars, the need to talk more about and stress the importance of "sincere attacks" in training so that our response will more easily generalize and have a higher probability of execution if even I should need it in the real world. I am always thankful for those people who would actually hit me if i didn't get off the line.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:46 AM   #33
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
Sincere: wholehearted, genuine, honest

Attack: forceful, offensive, undertaking
Hello Lynn,

I don't know--and this is partly why I wrote the article as a dialogue.

I remember a one-to-one training session with Chiba Sensei in his house in Mishima, after he had returned to Japan from the UK. The waza was irimi-nage, from a simple katate-dori hand-grab. It was not a crippling attack, but simply a gesture, to see what I would do with it.

I have to believe that the attack was sincere, since it was Chiba who was doing it, but what was noteworthy (and spectacular for me) was that the attack continued all the way through the technique, right until I had laid him on the tatami, and any loss or technique on my part invariably led to a kaeshi waza (usually a koshi-nage which made the house shake). And he taught in the traditional koryu way, by being uke until I had got the waza right to his satisfaction.

There is another thread somewhere in this forum about private lessons vs. group training. With someone like Chiba Sensei I think this is a no-brainer. I learned more about the techniques we practised from one session with him (and on other occasions with his father-in-law, M Sekiya) than from hundreds of hours of regular training.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 11-16-2006, 08:16 AM   #34
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I don't know--and this is partly why I wrote the article as a dialogue.
Oh I think you know, which is why you wrote the article to share it.

And if I understand it right (somewhat of a small chance), I would sincerely agree (that doesn't mean we are right, just that our experience and how we conceptual and explain it are a close enough match).

BTW, training with Phong Sensei in Tenshinkai Aikido has been a similar experience; sincere from start to finish.

Domo Arigato Sensei

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:27 AM   #35
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I remember a one-to-one training session with Chiba Sensei in his house in Mishima, after he had returned to Japan from the UK. The waza was irimi-nage, from a simple katate-dori hand-grab. It was not a crippling attack, but simply a gesture, to see what I would do with it.

I have to believe that the attack was sincere, since it was Chiba who was doing it, but what was noteworthy (and spectacular for me) was that the attack continued all the way through the technique, right until I had laid him on the tatami, and any loss or technique on my part invariably led to a kaeshi waza (usually a koshi-nage which made the house shake). And he taught in the traditional koryu way, by being uke until I had got the waza right to his satisfaction.
Hello Peter, as always, I enjoy reading your posts.

What you describe above is exactly the high-quality ukemi that we strive for where I train. It really helps to have felt it, and I was lucky enough to have Yasou Kobayashi shihan attack me a few times at a seminar. His attacks felt exactly like you described -- except that he did not throw me with a hip throw if I did not perform the move exactly as he wished, he just stopped the technique until I adjusted. He may have been taking it easy on me, though, because I had only been training for a year or so at the time.

Mechanically, we are taught that continuing the attack involves constantly turning (especially our hips) toward nage in an effort to affect nage's center or strike nage. Working with beginners, we go slowly, but still continue to provide that incoming energy to nage. I think that's why, as a beginner, I found it easier to do a technique correctly with a senior student as uke than with another beginner as uke.

So, for me, a committed attack is one where we continue to attack the whole way through the technique. In broad terms, this contrasts with something like a jab, which I think of as a quick strike followed by a retreat. It also contrasts a bit with my very limited experience with judo in which I and my partner start off grasping one another and simulataeous work to off-balance each other and counter each other's attempts to do the same.

I feel that our emphasis on being good attackers has really helped my waza to the point where the roles of uke and nage become very blurred. If I grap my partner's wrist, I now know that that movement can be the precursor to a good throw and pin. Which, when I think about it, is not that different from the judo I've been exposed to.

Regards,

Last edited by jxa127 : 11-16-2006 at 09:30 AM.

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Old 11-16-2006, 11:41 AM   #36
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

I think we mustn't mix up different concepts: teaching by attacking and trying to destroy by attacking.
In both cases attack can be honest and full of intent, but the goal of both attacks is completely different. Instructor may chose to teach you by providing an attack, but in normal practice it can't be a case. Attacker can't pretend he is teaching nage -- it will be very pretentious. Only very experienced ppl can teach like that. Nage can learn only from pure technique and not form 'self-imaginary master-attacker', otherwise the risk of deformation is too high.

Simple, high quality spontanous attack, whitout hidden intent (ex': by attacking like that I'll teach you that and this...) forces nage to find the best solution --- this is THE WAY to learn technique right.

Nagababa

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Old 11-16-2006, 12:12 PM   #37
jxa127
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Szczepan,

Did you attend a seminar with Ellis Amdur in Harrisburg, PA a few years ago? If so, and if you're who I remember from that seminar, then I remember that you liked to go al- out for each attack and asked your uke to do the same. :-)

Anyway, I think there's a difference between giving good ukemi that helps nage learn (with uke learning quite a bit at the same time) and trying to teach by taking ukemi.

The danger here is I'll talk about giving good ukemi that helps nage learn-- meaning ukemi with good attacks that continue throughout the technique and position me to take advantage of mistakes by nage -- and others with think I'm talking about soft attacks and "falling down" for nage.

That's why talking about aikido can be so difficult.

A question for you: how do you teach beginners to give a "high quality, spontaneous attack"? It seems to me that the ability to attack well follows the ability to fall well.

Regards,

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Old 11-16-2006, 02:49 PM   #38
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

I posted this in a thread about aikido and yoga both being relaxing. I think it obtains to this discussion:

"I'm recovering from devastating injury of 25 years ago. I've done yoga, tai chi chuan, chi kung (this the most diligently) aikido, physical therapy - ad nauseum. One of my Senseis who is younger, criticized my training (sharply), and said that solo training alone would not give me all I needed. We had words.

Next class he taught was about connection for uke - even during the most rigorous movement - ikyo for me, as both my shoulders have come out of joint. The most difficult and painful exercise was staying connected during very very fast but smooth ikyo and bouncing back up to continue pushing into nage's center. I yelled from the pain, trembled, experienced rapid breathing, and generally hurt like Hell during this exercise, but began using muscle groups I've had locked down since my injury.

Next class I was throwing koshi nage off my right side - the side that has collapsed under load for all those years.

Thank you Sensei!"

David
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:05 PM   #39
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
Drew Ames wrote:
Szczepan,

Did you attend a seminar with Ellis Amdur in Harrisburg, PA a few years ago?
Unfortunatly no, I've never had a chance to meet him. But I'm not sure if he'll be very happy to practice with me
Quote:
Drew Ames wrote:
A question for you: how do you teach beginners to give a "high quality, spontaneous attack"? It seems to me that the ability to attack well follows the ability to fall well.

Regards,
oh, quite few of them have MA background, boxing, karate, judo, kung fu etc...so they have no problems. Others take exemple from them or are corrected every time when they attack is weak, or out of target, or full of openings(I do a lot of one-to-one practice to be sure that attack is right and powerfull). Nobody has right to RUN while attacking, in typical aikido way of attacking. We do a lot of static exercises and in the end of every class we do 10 minutes of jiu waza (any technique, any attack) -- even beginners after 1 month of practice.

No, they don't need to know how to fall well, in the end of technique we are able to slow down, to protect attacker from his own power

Nagababa

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Old 11-16-2006, 09:49 PM   #40
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
DrewAmes wrote:
A question for you: how do you teach beginners to give a "high quality, spontaneous attack"? It seems to me that the ability to attack well follows the ability to fall well.
Drew, did you mean "one should have the skills to fall properly before one should have the skills to attack properly"? I think this matter is upmost important. If uke does not have this pre-requisite it is a recipe for disaster.

I remember my Judo teacher replying to a question fput forth by a student.
Student: "What is the most important technique in Judo?"
Judo Teacher: "How to fall properly (ukemi) technique".

Boon.

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Old 11-17-2006, 07:14 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Quote:
Unfortunatly no, I've never had a chance to meet him. But I'm not sure if he'll be very happy to practice with me
The guys from Itten know Ellis on the mat better than I do...but Mr. S, I think you know enough of Ellis's history to know better than that.

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-17-2006, 07:18 AM   #42
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Re: Article: 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury

Boon,

Yes, that's what I meant. A general rule for beginners I've heard is to only attack as fast as you want to fall. Still, even going slowly, one can continue to extend energy toward nage and try to control his or her center.

Regards,

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