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Old 10-26-2006, 09:32 AM   #26
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I'd probably enjoy that Eric, and make it enjoyable for you. I can't stay serious for very long though.

There are dozens of folks reading this...er...stuff... who know me, and cannot figure out why I bother. I returned as It was agreed about 6 months ago that Mark and Ron would come from the list and report. Its the only reason I'm back here again-in support of that commitment. I wish you good luck in pursuing these skills. The Mind/body is an amazing, time consuming, play ground to live in. Even more so in connection with others intent.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-26-2006, 09:43 AM   #27
shodan 83
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I look forward to the opportunity.

E
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Old 10-26-2006, 09:53 AM   #28
MM
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Eric Lingswiler wrote:
I respectively disagree with the notion that this needs to be dropped, it is true that nothing will come of it; Dan will not accept the gracious offer to show the "jo trick" at Jimmy's dojo. Dan will continue to point out that all other MA do not possess what he has and are lacking, he'll continue to make the claims he has made in the past and cast disparaging remarks concerning others training and his ability to gather admirers from casual interaction at an assortment of venues. It has a certain entertainment value.
Hello Eric,

I'm hoping that one day you'll get a chance to experience some of this "internal stuff". Reading words on a screen doesn't convey anything near what it's like for real. And in that perspective, I can understand why so many are skeptical.

But it is at that point where people are separated. You can remain skeptical (and there are infinite reasons which are neither good nor bad so don't take being skeptical as a negative thing) or you can put forth an effort to experience "internal stuff" first hand.

For the former, being skeptical has no negative connotations. It merely is a state of being. However, to cast aspersions, IMO, is where it starts to go wrong. Yes, Dan declined Jim's offer. Dan has his reasons. But you forgot to mention that Jim declined Dan's offer. And Jim has his reasons. We should respect both and not post in a way to make one seem wrong.

So if you're skeptical, at least have enough of an open mind that if a chance does come along to experience things, take it. It may or may not live up to your expectations, but at least you'll either have a basis for your skepticism or a new way of training.

As for your next to last sentence ... I see nothing wrong with it. Dan has that Right. And if you find that you take offense to someone, anyone, telling you that your training is lacking in anything, then you might want to take a look inside yourself to see why. What does an outsider's words really mean to your training? People from karate, taekwondo, BJJ, etc have ripped apart Aikido yet I see very few take offense at that. Would you take offense if some karate person said your aikido training was fluffy bunny unrealistic hype? But yet, here are Dan, Mike, and Rob saying that aikido training is missing something and it's created a windstorm of talk. Why is that?

Oh, as to your last sentence ... in some aspects, I take my training seriously. So, if the topic is about something that can alter my training in depth, I take it seriously. To devalue it to entertainment value ... well, as I said at the beginning, I hope you get a chance to experience this "internal stuff".

Mark
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:07 AM   #29
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I think both of your posts crossed, so there is a bit of innocent cognative dissonance there.

Mark
May I add the discussion we had about you remaining with Aikido and including this training into -your- aikido? I think that is a bit of a point here is well.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:09 AM   #30
shodan 83
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Mark, you are being far too presumptive about me, my training, my skepticism, etc. My only purpose was to provide a contrarian point of view to ending the thread, if you find no entertainment in this discourse, perhaps you and I read in a different light. As far as people ripping Aikido, most of it is dead spot on, I'm comfortable in my art and my ability, so those throwing stones don't bother me, but I'm constantly looking for new things and better ways to improve myself and my training. So don't think I discount the internal arts, quite to the contrary. I'm glad you enjoyed your training and I take your post at face value.
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:33 AM   #31
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Eric Lingswiler wrote:
Mark, you are being far too presumptive about me, my training, my skepticism, etc. My only purpose was to provide a contrarian point of view to ending the thread, if you find no entertainment in this discourse, perhaps you and I read in a different light. As far as people ripping Aikido, most of it is dead spot on, I'm comfortable in my art and my ability, so those throwing stones don't bother me, but I'm constantly looking for new things and better ways to improve myself and my training. So don't think I discount the internal arts, quite to the contrary. I'm glad you enjoyed your training and I take your post at face value.
Hi Eric,
My apologies. Posts were crossed as I was replying and if I had read your later posts, I wouldn't have responded the way I did.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:36 AM   #32
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I think both of your posts crossed, so there is a bit of innocent cognative dissonance there.

Mark
May I add the discussion we had about you remaining with Aikido and including this training into -your- aikido? I think that is a bit of a point here is well.

Cheers
Dan
Dan,
Sure. No problem at all adding that in here.

Mark
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:40 AM   #33
shodan 83
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

No apology necessary; if we all bury ourselves in our respective dojos our art is doomed.

E
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Old 10-26-2006, 03:55 PM   #34
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Mark
May I add the discussion we had about you remaining with Aikido and including this training into -your- aikido? I think that is a bit of a point here is well.
I'm interested in hearing about that. I stopped doing aikido after I went through Tokyo this summer; Rob got me hooked on Akuzawa's stuff. Aikido would take free time, which I think would be better spent on shiko, body axis training, or whatever solo work. But I'm not sure, so I pay attention to threads like this.

Tom

Last edited by Tom H. : 10-26-2006 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:01 PM   #35
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
I'm interested in hearing about that. I stopped doing aikido after I went through Tokyo this summer; Rob got me hooked on Akuzawa's stuff. Aikido would take free time, which I think would be better spent on shiko, body axis training, or whatever solo work. But I'm not sure, so I pay attention to threads like this.

Tom
Hi Tom
I wouldn't either, but that's me. If folks love it I say let them be. I try to encourage them to "see" Aikido differently, as I think its the first step to -doing- aikido more effectively. The only issue I have is, as I explained, then showed Mark, is that this work is just about opposite the intent in aikido. Blending is a disaster as far as I'm concerned. I imagine the hardest part would be having to let people do things to you, as over time we both know it becomes damn difficult to impossible to move you or lock you any other way.
I think leaving it, fixing yourself on the inside, and going back to it is difficult also but still the best course. You can then move others and throw and lock but how are you going to get thrown? I'd not want to break my structure that way. What for? Your not gonna get led-out or redirected any day soon, and they're only going to redirect themselves by trying.
But that goes back to what I said to Mark. Aikido is fun to do if you cooporate and feel that exchange. This training will virtually nullify that play and sort of change your view of Budo forever. It makes cooperation hard to so since your body will not react that way anymore.
I recently got a letter from a Chiba/ Di Anne/ Aikikai guy who just felt a friend of mine in the CMA. He is now asking all the same questions and is realzing the dilema of facing internal power. And this CMA guy wasn't high level at all in the CMA.

Anyway, you now know as well as me that the true work is on you by changing you on the inside so you can change forces on the outside-and you don't need other people for the majority of that work. The rest is just testing work and experimenting and trying out your progress. Shiko? Yes!....one of my long time favorites. Oh the thousands of em. We have any number of various solo exercises as well, and the results are rather obvious (over time) for power delivery. We all know ya can't lie about your solo work.
The answers are right in your hands

When are you going to be in the states?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-26-2006 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:40 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I'd probably enjoy that Eric, and make it enjoyable for you. I can't stay serious for very long though.

There are dozens of folks reading this...er...stuff... who know me, and cannot figure out why I bother. I returned as It was agreed about 6 months ago that Mark and Ron would come from the list and report. Its the only reason I'm back here again-in support of that commitment. I wish you good luck in pursuing these skills. The Mind/body is an amazing, time consuming, play ground to live in. Even more so in connection with others intent.
I'm out of town at the moment and just browsing various forums, but I'll toss in 2 cents here. It's hard to judge what anyone knows or can do based on internet comments about physical things that happened to someone because we didn't see it happen and we have no idea of the experience or skill level of the commenter, often. What we *can* do is read someone's explanation of the theories and see if they jibe. Continued comments like "I told you so" are simply meaningless.

It's good that Dan finally met up with someone, but I don't see how it tells much more than that. There are all sorts of levels of skills with these things.... rooting and releasing some power (amount unknown) are just parts of the whole equation. Probably it would be more illuminating if Dan could describe how he does a few of these things.... because there are all sorts of varieties of usages of the basic skills, from the hard Shaolin/karate things to the softer Taoist, etc.

What I'm still waiting on is for Dan to clarify his last boast before he jumped ship in the last episode, where he claimed to have stupified Chen Zheng Lei at one of CZL's workshops.... something that appears to be patently false, from a comment made by the host of that event on the QiJing list.

Maybe if you would tie all of these things together, Dan? Why a person of your oft-touted abilities is bothering to go to simple Tai Chi workshops is a real puzzle to me.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:42 AM   #37
MM
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm out of town at the moment and just browsing various forums, but I'll toss in 2 cents here. It's hard to judge what anyone knows or can do based on internet comments about physical things that happened to someone because we didn't see it happen and we have no idea of the experience or skill level of the commenter, often. What we *can* do is read someone's explanation of the theories and see if they jibe. Continued comments like "I told you so" are simply meaningless.
Hello Mike,

I'd agree with you only up to a point. It doesn't take much experience or skill to use basic physical muscle. I'm 5'7" and weigh 195 pounds. Got about 5-10 pounds (at a guess) of fat around the belly but other than that, it's muscle. I can use basic muscle and push a good bit. That's all without adding in any skill or experience. So, to a point, people can judge. In fact they can try it at the dojo or home. Just stand relaxed and let someone push on you. It's what I did before I met Dan. lol, I still do it. For another test, let someone push on the side of your head, just using muscle, and see how you fare. At a base level, people can understand and judge some of what is going on.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's good that Dan finally met up with someone, but I don't see how it tells much more than that. There are all sorts of levels of skills with these things.... rooting and releasing some power (amount unknown) are just parts of the whole equation. Probably it would be more illuminating if Dan could describe how he does a few of these things.... because there are all sorts of varieties of usages of the basic skills, from the hard Shaolin/karate things to the softer Taoist, etc.
There were three main voices: you, Rob, and Dan. As I understand it, there was a seminar with Rob's teacher. Ledyard sensei met you. But Dan was still an unknown, per se. Granted, I'm not as skilled as Ledyard sensei by a long shot nor am I a host of attendees at a seminar. But now, all three voices have been experienced outside their own realms. And the results are pretty much the same. So, in that aspect, it reinforces, yet again, what all three of you have been saying.

As for describing ... What good is describing it? What one person uses as descriptors, another would find confusing. And for most of us out here, the description would be useless. It would be like me asking Ikeda sensei to describe how subtle he was. He probably could, but it would be useless to me. I probably wouldn't understand it correctly. IMO anyway.

On the other hand, I'd really like to hear your opinion on how or if one could use this "internal stuff" and incorporate it into Aikido? Dan's given his opinion. I'm going to try to post my thoughts on it, too.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What I'm still waiting on is for Dan to clarify his last boast before he jumped ship in the last episode, where he claimed to have stupified Chen Zheng Lei at one of CZL's workshops.... something that appears to be patently false, from a comment made by the host of that event on the QiJing list.

Maybe if you would tie all of these things together, Dan? Why a person of your oft-touted abilities is bothering to go to simple Tai Chi workshops is a real puzzle to me.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Ah, and that gets a bit too off topic for me. If there's another thread on this, could we please use it and not this one? Thanks.

Mark
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Old 10-27-2006, 10:10 AM   #38
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Blending is a disaster as far as I'm concerned. I imagine the hardest part would be having to let people do things to you, as over time we both know it becomes damn difficult to impossible to move you or lock you any other way.
I think leaving it, fixing yourself on the inside, and going back to it is difficult also but still the best course. You can then move others and throw and lock but how are you going to get thrown? I'd not want to break my structure that way. What for?
This is the problem that I have with this idea of training (or at least, with pursuing this idea exclusively), and to some extent with training in Aikido, martial arts, or any form of contention in general. Its very hard to take bad technique seriously, but that is what is required for a certain type of training that I find a lot of wide applicability for, both on and off the mat.

There is this admonition to "be the water, not the rock" but this type of body work and the capability to redirect and resist forces (and for that matter the capability of an advanced Aikidoka to resist a novice Aikidoka, the strong to resist the weak, or the logical to refute the illogical) trains you to be the rock. The idea of the blending I'm talking about, and that I am currently really interested in, is to spout another idea whose origin I can't recall is that "the horse moves before it feels the whip."

I'm not talking about rigidity here (although that is one example) - I'm talking about a lack of blending, a lack of acceptance, and moving only when you're being polite and feel like it as opposed to following cues or anticipating. Being fixated on internal strength instead of examining our partners and what they want and need. There is a weakness in this attitude in the long term, from what I have observed. It leads to complacency, stagnation, and lots of self-satisfied smirking and dismissal of other ideas. What can follow from this is an ambush, circumvention, or asymmetrical warfare either metaphorically or literally.

There are reasons to learn and train yourself to blend with a force, ANY force, no matter how inexpert and ineffectual. It helps in terms of training the mind and body to be able to blend with anything. It teaches you how to accept others and understand them, instead of being so strong and confident in yourself. I realize that this flies in the face of much of what people try to learn in martial arts, but... <shrug>

Still, its a moot point... both types of training have value.

So Dan (and Mike), what are you working on currently in your training, I might ask? Are you moving further in the same direction, or is there other new stuff that you're working on? Are you satisfied with what's in your toolbox and are just polishing the tools, or are you trying to get new tools? What's a weekly or daily training regime like for you two? Are you teaching or are you also taking class?

Rob
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Old 10-27-2006, 11:22 AM   #39
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Rob
I've never been satisfied with my what's in my toolbox, nor how I use the tools. By this time next year I hope to have yet again, learned more, as I will be traveling to train with a seriusly good practioner of this stuff. But here's the point. This type of traning is....the toolbox. Then you have things you can do which are the tools in the box. But I remain open as to where the knowledge comes from and who has it.

That said your question is still really more applicable to the box- not the tools in it. Even down to minute levels everything is still based on the bodywork (tool box). The rest is application.
If I can use outside-lines of my body to absorb your force while attacking you with the insides, then the incoming force feels neutral and I can read what you are doing to me ina flash. THis is what Mark felt then I can maintain that force or load on me and instantly cut your center away without having to move...at all.
Even someting as simple as your legs or feet have outsides and insides. Mark wonlt publicly discuss it but I showed him how to identify that "feeling" in him and how to transfer the load carrying ability down the putside of his leg while attacking with the inside.

Your argument or question (argument sounds harsh) is why not give them what they need or blend and it helps in life etc.

All I can say is that the healther Martial artists I've met were guys in wrestling, BJJ Judo and MMA where your fight you win you lose you fight. Not to be too condeming but there is a handicapp in only facing cooperation or mild resistence.
All that said, we don't train this to ...have to...hurt/ harm. The body skills can be as ooey gooey as you please or as violent as needed.
But you cannot -find it- by blending. You find it in you first.
Hell on another level I could say I am blending but it has nothing to do with the blending oft seen. Why canlt we blend by not moving and changing your force on me internally. It goes where I will it to go, not where you want it to go. Then I can rebound it back at ya coming up to take your base away. Aiki-age
Or absorb down my front and come back at ya over the top to compress you.

In fact I believe it was Ueshiba coming into his own who realized for the first time that he could truly "stop the spears" (Budo definition) with these skills thus not ever N-E-E-D to fight anymore.
But the path to get there is learning what I call "paths of power" in your own body first-not blending with anyone.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2006 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 10-27-2006, 11:31 AM   #40
MM
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
This is the problem that I have with this idea of training (or at least, with pursuing this idea exclusively), and to some extent with training in Aikido, martial arts, or any form of contention in general. Its very hard to take bad technique seriously, but that is what is required for a certain type of training that I find a lot of wide applicability for, both on and off the mat.

There is this admonition to "be the water, not the rock" but this type of body work and the capability to redirect and resist forces (and for that matter the capability of an advanced Aikidoka to resist a novice Aikidoka, the strong to resist the weak, or the logical to refute the illogical) trains you to be the rock. The idea of the blending I'm talking about, and that I am currently really interested in, is to spout another idea whose origin I can't recall is that "the horse moves before it feels the whip."

I'm not talking about rigidity here (although that is one example) - I'm talking about a lack of blending, a lack of acceptance, and moving only when you're being polite and feel like it as opposed to following cues or anticipating. Being fixated on internal strength instead of examining our partners and what they want and need. There is a weakness in this attitude in the long term, from what I have observed. It leads to complacency, stagnation, and lots of self-satisfied smirking and dismissal of other ideas. What can follow from this is an ambush, circumvention, or asymmetrical warfare either metaphorically or literally.

There are reasons to learn and train yourself to blend with a force, ANY force, no matter how inexpert and ineffectual. It helps in terms of training the mind and body to be able to blend with anything. It teaches you how to accept others and understand them, instead of being so strong and confident in yourself. I realize that this flies in the face of much of what people try to learn in martial arts, but... <shrug>
Rob,

Hello. Um, I read your post three times. I think I have an idea of what you're conveying, but if not, please correct me.

What I'm understanding as your view of "internal strength" isn't the same as what I'm talking about with "internal stuff". The "internal stuff" that I'm talking about is one of the true ideals of aiki. (I say one because there may be others.) At its core, there is a process of blending with a force.

When Dan showed/explained what he was doing and then the resulting feel and/or off balance that I felt; there *had* to have been blending and/or aiki at its core. I don't think it is the same thing as being a rock or the "capability of an advanced Aikidoka to resist a novice Aikidoka".

If I've misunderstood your post, please let me know.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 10-27-2006, 11:36 AM   #41
MM
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I was replying when you were - again. LOL. I should start checking the thread before I hit submit.

I think that you are blending forces. But yes, it isn't in the same way that some of us are doing it in Aikido. I guess this could be a splitting off point for another thread to talk about external blending (which some of us in Aikido do) and internal blending (which is what I view you as doing).

Mark
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Old 10-27-2006, 11:38 AM   #42
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Rob
Just want to add we are not the rock but are the -ultimate- water. This is soft, very soft. The hardness you sense or feel is the result of the ground not the body being flexed. Because everything goes to ground it feels hard. How do you make it so? By being very soft and pliant. But pliant, with no base, so you have to blend with force, worse having to move all over.... is not a way I'd go. Being able to change the direction within my body-which Mark felt:
a. lets me read you
b. lets me direct you
There is no time lag- it just is.

The flip side is generating power, which can be substantial.
But you need this essential basic structure to do everything else. Otherwsie...wham you go over or are yourself manipulated.
When Mark was tring to throw me and I felt "hard" I wasn't. It just felt that way to Mark. But I was letting him lift his feet to try Tsukuri and Kake. But the hard rubber feel can be offered or taken away. So......... I then I switched and when he tried to throw me I was softer still... but then he couldn't lift his feet off the ground. That's done with breath work supported off my structure supported from the? ......ground, and me using his own feet.
But in all? The ultimate water........heck you can even apply a base wave (unseen travelling base-of-the-wave which is a weight/vector transfer from underneath) to rise up and take the feet.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2006 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 10-27-2006, 11:44 AM   #43
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Sorry Mark

I was working and kept going back to try and finish the post...duh!

Gees I gotta work
Dan
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:12 PM   #44
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Let's see if I can characterize what I'm trying to say better...

Situation: Someone tries to push you.

Its the difference between the following responses:
1) Letting the push be redirected through you to the ground (dissipating the push)
2) Letting the push be redirected through you (or the ground) back at the person (redirecting the push)
3) Disrupting the push through mechanical (or other) means
4) Letting the push move you
5) Moving ahead of the push

All are useful areas of study, I think. It seems like what Dan is interested in is (1) and maybe (2) and maybe even (3). I'd say that many Aikidoka I've seen are interested in (2) and (3) and maybe (1). I'm currently interested in (5) and to some extent (4) because I can't do (5).

The reason for this is that I've realized that being right or strong in myself, my opinions, or my techniques doesn't help me deal with others, or at least with others who are the most circumspect, dangerous, or powerful, especially off the mat, and that's the part of training that I'm currently interested in.

Rob
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:22 PM   #45
David Orange
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's hard to judge what anyone knows or can do based on internet comments...What we *can* do is read someone's explanation of the theories and see if they jibe.
Mike,

I don't think you'll find anything in the comments of people like Gozo Shioda and Morihiro Saito that meet your requirements for indicating that a given person "knows" anything or "can do" anything. I never read any comments by either of them that sound anything like what you seem to require.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's good that Dan finally met up with someone, but I don't see how it tells much more than that. There are all sorts of levels of skills with these things.... rooting and releasing some power (amount unknown) are just parts of the whole equation.
Well, Mark is a moderator on at least one of the forums and he is an established judo guy and, I think, an aikido practitioner. That is the nice thing about rank (in judo, at least) and it's why I've said before that I would like to see claimants to the "internal stuff" get some rank in judo so that we can see on an impartial scale what kind of power they generate, just how immovable they really are. With judo, at least, you don't get a sixth dan except by overcoming a number of fifth dans. So you get a lot of consistency and an objective comparison. With aikido, the ranks are so diverse from dojo to dojo that they tell absolutely nothing about actual martial skill. Some places actually disdain martial application altogether and you can find highly ranked people who are relatively easy to push around, while they can have no effect on you. But in judo, we at least have some idea of what power and moveability mean. Mark has that background, and he says Dan was really impressive, so that says a lot for me. Also, Chuck Clark has spoken well of Dan and Dan seems to be on pretty good terms with Ellis Amdur...so he's not travelling with wannabes.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Probably it would be more illuminating if Dan could describe how he does a few of these things.... because there are all sorts of varieties of usages of the basic skills, from the hard Shaolin/karate things to the softer Taoist, etc.
As you've always said, it has to be felt to be known. And you are well-known for disdaining "whatever" anyone else uses as a description, so why do you keep calling for "descriptions" from people? Just so you can shoot down their words? Frankly, what you and Dan "say" on these boards seems to be so similar that if your names were taken off, I doubt many people could say which of you made the statement, outside general attitude in the statement.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What I'm still waiting on is for Dan to clarify his last boast before he jumped ship in the last episode, where he claimed to have stupified Chen Zheng Lei at one of CZL's workshops.... something that appears to be patently false, from a comment made by the host of that event on the QiJing list.
I never saw such claims from Dan on this board or on e-budo, either. Maybe I missed it. But why don't we keep the conversation to what's been posted here, to avoid confusion?

Best.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:28 PM   #46
MM
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
Let's see if I can characterize what I'm trying to say better...

Situation: Someone tries to push you.

Its the difference between the following responses:
1) Letting the push be redirected through you to the ground (dissipating the push)
2) Letting the push be redirected through you (or the ground) back at the person (redirecting the push)
3) Disrupting the push through mechanical (or other) means
4) Letting the push move you
5) Moving ahead of the push

All are useful areas of study, I think. It seems like what Dan is interested in is (1) and maybe (2) and maybe even (3). I'd say that many Aikidoka I've seen are interested in (2) and (3) and maybe (1). I'm currently interested in (5) and to some extent (4) because I can't do (5).

The reason for this is that I've realized that being right or strong in myself, my opinions, or my techniques doesn't help me deal with others, or at least with others who are the most circumspect, dangerous, or powerful, especially off the mat, and that's the part of training that I'm currently interested in.

Rob
Rob,

If you go by that list, then what Dan is doing using 1, 2, and/or 3 is very definitely NOT what Aikidoka are doing using 1, 2, and/or 3. At least not the ones I know/train with. So if you're using the Aikidoka version of 1, 2, and/or 3 and trying to apply it to what Dan is doing, you're not getting it right. IMO, there is a profound difference, not only in execution but in intent, physiology, flow, and center. Although being a beginner at the "internal stuff", one must take my views with a grain of salt.

Mark
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:28 PM   #47
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

There is a certain amount of "gotcha" that goes on on all sides of these conversations. I assume that it is inevitable. I wish it were otherwise.

On judo rank, I don't think the rank enters into it at all. What matters is the format...judo's format lends itself to certain truths...and they are pretty much irrefutable. I think that is very refreshing.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:38 PM   #48
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Rob,

If you go by that list, then what Dan is doing using 1, 2, and/or 3 is very definitely NOT what Aikidoka are doing using 1, 2, and/or 3. At least not the ones I know/train with. So if you're using the Aikidoka version of 1, 2, and/or 3 and trying to apply it to what Dan is doing, you're not getting it right. IMO, there is a profound difference, not only in execution but in intent, physiology, flow, and center. Although being a beginner at the "internal stuff", one must take my views with a grain of salt.

Mark
Of that I have no doubt, for better or for worse, from what I've seen and heard. My imagination tells me it is like the Ki Aikido that I've seen (at least in terms of Ki tests) or that it is to produce a solid capability in that department. That said, its a functionally solo affair, with the exception of testing, at the static level.

I was mainly responding to this comment.. and asking Dan how he addresses the other items on my list.

Quote:
I'm interested in hearing about that. I stopped doing aikido after I went through Tokyo this summer; Rob got me hooked on Akuzawa's stuff. Aikido would take free time, which I think would be better spent on shiko, body axis training, or whatever solo work. But I'm not sure, so I pay attention to threads like this.
I was merely saying that I've personally found that there is more than can be gained by practicing Aikido than just (1), (2), and (3).. I guess it was more of a comment with respect to Dan's understandable difficulty in going to an Aikido class to work on those skills. It just doesn't help the partner dynamic, unless everyone else is on the same page. Being too strong in those skills can complicate learning others.

I think with that list that I provided, all of the different areas need to be developed in concert or in sequence, but that becoming too good at any one area makes one too reliant on that as a response.

Rob
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:45 PM   #49
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
The only issue I have is, as I explained, then showed Mark, is that this work is just about opposite the intent in aikido. Blending is a disaster as far as I'm concerned.
Dan,

I've enjoyed these threads immensely. I have to say, it looks to me like someone tried to burn you and you just glowed more brightly. Mark's comments have really gotten me interested, but your overall positive attitude is the real key.

However, I think your statement that "blending is a disaster" needs some further consideration. It seems that all you guys are talking about a kind of "immoveability" and "overpowering strength" kind of thing that causes uke to fall or lose his balance or strength on contact with you.

But that's why I always ask, "How does this relate to the sword?"

The essence of aiki, to me, is in the unarmed defender facing the sword-wielding attacker. And I think that in that case the disaster would be failing to blend.

Much is made of how quickly Ueshiba told Tenryu that he had learned all he needed. Again, that followed literal decades of severe sumo training, yet there was still something he had to learn from Ueshiba and that was "technique". So while I am convinced that tanden development is central (and that's always been stated by the masters), there is still an important place for technique.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:47 PM   #50
shodan 83
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Mike,


I never saw such claims from Dan on this board or on e-budo, either. Maybe I missed it. But why don't we keep the conversation to what's been posted here, to avoid confusion?

Best.

David
See Dan and Mike's thread.
just proverbial fuel..................
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