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Old 10-22-2006, 03:52 AM   #51
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Excellent post, sorry to nit-pick but...
Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
As for realism; that's a state of mind as far as I'm concerned. Ask your uke to grab a wooden tanto and really try to stab you with it in the upper torso, I'll think you'll find that when the stab is successful, you'll know about it fairly quickly.
<snip>
Taking a hit to the torso however isn't obviously a good idea, even relatively short bladed objects used with force are able to penetrate deep enough to cause fatal injurie
Taking a hit to the torso with a wooden tanto isn't a great idea either, so for more realistic training, I suggest a less realistic weapon. Uke should feel quite motivated to land a solid strike, and quite uninhibited about doing so.

Its often been suggested before, but.. how about a cheap white t-shirt (or no shirt at all) and a big red marker pen? Otherwise, a flexible tanto, like those used in Shodokan, or a rubber knife might be a better bet.
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Old 10-22-2006, 07:40 AM   #52
Vincent Dorval
Dojo: Shobukai Loretteville
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Hi everyone, I'm a long time reader, first time writer:

In my dojo, in certain circumstances, we use a realistic fake knife. When you see the shinny blade comming at you, it increases the stress. Even if you know that it won't even cut butter, suddenly, adrenalin kicks in and it's a "real" knife that is coming at you, not a wooden tanto. It also helps to remember the principle: disarm with you hand at the NON cutting edge of the blade...

But before doing that kind of exercice, you better know the technique you are doing.
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Old 10-23-2006, 01:56 PM   #53
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
David Green wrote:
Ron Tisdale:

Hi. You have translated but IMHO misunderstood the block.
Hi back...

I'm afraid I disagree...I don't think I misunderstood anything.

Quote:
It is always undertaken before Uke has built up any momentum. It has nothing to do with avoidance, as Tori steps in (linear) directly to take the initiative away from Uke.
I was making a [I guess bad, in your case] pun. No sweat. I would agree with your statements about entry into the attacker's space. And my very point about the meaning of the word yoke in Japanese supports the idea of "avoiding the force of the blow".

My larger point was that outside of a dojo, I will not engage someone with a knife unless there is ABSOLUTELY no other choice. Given no other choice, direct entry, with a yoshinkan block, utilizing the bone shield would be my choice, much as you describe. But I'd much rather yokeru the entire situation...

yokeru
(v1,vt) (1) to avoid (physical contact with); (v1) (2) to ward off; to avert; (P)

yoke
(n-suf) (uk) protection

From a rather nice site...
http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dict

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:49 AM   #54
MM
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
My larger point was that outside of a dojo, I will not engage someone with a knife unless there is ABSOLUTELY no other choice. Given no other choice, direct entry, with a yoshinkan block, utilizing the bone shield would be my choice, much as you describe. But I'd much rather yokeru the entire situation...


Best,
Ron
Ron,
Got to agree with you. Outside the dojo, I will do my best to not engage someone with a knife. If I have no other choice, I'm going to find some weapon - a gun, chair, belt, something - to use.

I'm currently studying Albo kali/silat and it's been an eye opener for knife attacks. There are some knife attacks that you will never recover from. And they take a second or less to complete. Not to mention the fact that a good knife fighter will hit you several times in as many seconds or less.

I also like Ledyard sensei's post #46. Great advice.

Mark
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:25 PM   #55
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
I would agree that all dojo training is by definition unrealistic, yet it is far better than not training at all.

We are making a good case for cross-training, or at least cross-awareness, so we can be more conscious of what is possible.
Though you are right, I want to disagree. Unrealistic training is a waste of your time, my time, my student's time, everyone's time. I want realistic training. I needrealistic training. As time passes, and as I improve (hopefully), I realise that a lot of what we do is unrealistic. I want to change that. People are cross-training because they realise that their training is insufficient. Insufficient can often translate as - no good. But, is the cross-training any better! Not always.

One of my friends commented about a certain school, "They are good at what they do but what they do is rubbish." It was spot on in the moment, and now, years on, I do not want it to apply to me.

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Old 10-25-2006, 07:58 AM   #56
SeiserL
 
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Rupert,

We are cut from the same cloth.

Yes, while all training is IMHO unrealistic, the closer we can get it to realistic the better the training and translation/generalization to actual application. Always train with honest and genuine intent and intensity.

I personally enjoy cross-training, but not because Aikido isn't enough, complete, or it's insufficient. I just enjoy the variety in physical and mental training and conditioning.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:49 AM   #57
George S. Ledyard
 
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Arrow Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Unrealistic training is a waste of your time, my time, my student's time, everyone's time. I want realistic training. I needrealistic training. .
Since we are talking about knife defense, let's adress what we mean by "realistic".

Are we atlking about an opponent who is highly trained in some South Asian knife system like Kali or Silat? These are integrated systems and have their own empty hand components which are specifically adapted to the way that they use their weapons. Aikido is not. Do you start to change your Aikido oto adapt to this particular usage? Do you intyroduce the various flow drills that these systems use to train their own people?

Are we talking about defense against a predatory type indiviual armed wirg a blade? In that case we are talking about an ambush. Are you practicing having people attack you at random times? Do you train them in how to smile at you while they set you up for the kill? In a situation like this, there is no "knife defense" because you won't even know they have a knife until you are stabbed.

Are we talking about traditional Japanese tanto? This might most closely resemble what most Aikido people do... But what was the "real" application? Do you do a takedown and then access your tanto to finish the opponent? Do you pull your tanto right in the middle of doing your sword kumitachi and stab the partner? Do you practice attacking by surprise from a seated seiza position while trying to distract your partner? Do you have your students carry tanto in their onbis during training? Do they pull them any time they see an opening? Do they pull yours?

Realistic knife defense could mean all sorts of things. I can virtually guarentee that there isn't an Aikido dojo in the country that is doing all of the above. There are certainly dojos which are doing some of the above. It's a question of what you are training for and designing your training to acheive precisely that end. Their are many choices of what that end should be. Anything that doesn't acheive that particular end is by defintion "unrealistic".

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:56 AM   #58
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Do you practice serving tea to your host, then strangle and gut him when he is taken unawares?

Always liked that one...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:17 AM   #59
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Do you practice serving tea to your host, then strangle and gut him when he is taken unawares?

Always liked that one...
Note to self: Cancel Ron's invitation to tea ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:31 AM   #60
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Hey, It's not me you have to worry about Don't invite Ellis Amdur to tea!

Best,
Ron (dude, that kata is sick!)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:04 PM   #61
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hey, It's not me you have to worry about Don't invite Ellis Amdur to tea!

Best,
Ron (dude, that kata is sick!)
The good news:

I just took a look on YouTube and found a PG-13 version from that set of kata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2_Z-whRDRk

The bad news:

The list of people you might not want to make a tea date with just got longer.

FL
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:10 PM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Yeah, that would be pg-11. When Ellis does that kata, it's rated MA to XXX...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:46 PM   #63
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Since we are talking about knife defense, let's adress what we mean by "realistic".

Are we atlking about an opponent who is highly trained in some South Asian knife system like Kali or Silat? These are integrated systems and have their own empty hand components which are specifically adapted to the way that they use their weapons. Aikido is not. Do you start to change your Aikido oto adapt to this particular usage? Do you intyroduce the various flow drills that these systems use to train their own people?


Realistic knife defense could mean all sorts of things. I can virtually guarentee that there isn't an Aikido dojo in the country that is doing all of the above. There are certainly dojos which are doing some of the above. It's a question of what you are training for and designing your training to acheive precisely that end. Their are many choices of what that end should be. Anything that doesn't acheive that particular end is by defintion "unrealistic".
We are on the same track. Nothing is ever realistic in the dojo - but the most important thing to realise is just that - that it is not realistic. Once that realisation begins we can start improving, by what ever means you think effective (you listed several) if we are so inclined - and we should be.

In an Aikido setting, the Tanto offers you the opportunity to raise your awareness a notch or two, and hopefully, that will transfer over when you go back to empty hand. Anyway, all I can say is I remain wary of many Aikido tanto techs I have been taught ... Tanto tsuki shiho-nage - well, pull the other one!

I too, shall pass on the tea party.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 10-25-2006 at 01:49 PM.

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Old 10-25-2006, 03:43 PM   #64
MM
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Since we are talking about knife defense, let's adress what we mean by "realistic".

Are we atlking about an opponent who is highly trained in some South Asian knife system like Kali or Silat? These are integrated systems and have their own empty hand components which are specifically adapted to the way that they use their weapons. Aikido is not. Do you start to change your Aikido oto adapt to this particular usage? Do you intyroduce the various flow drills that these systems use to train their own people?
Ledyard sensei,
Any thoughts on "knife defense" against kali/silat? It's not a very entertaining thought and my best guess would be to take their center quick and hard but even then I know my chances aren't good.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:37 PM   #65
SeiserL
 
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Any thoughts on "knife defense" against kali/silat? It's not a very entertaining thought and my best guess would be to take their center quick and hard but even then I know my chances aren't good.
Several years back we did an article for Black Belt Magazine that used traditional Aikido techniques against the traditional FMA five angles of attack. shot the whole thing with a live blade too.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:44 PM   #66
paulb
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Re: Realistic Tanto Training

Defence against a FMA knife attack. Run away.
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