Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-20-2006, 04:36 AM   #26
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Most peoples Nikkyo doesnt work on my GF, mine does though, you just have to modify what your doing to suit the person/situation. I cut into her more directly up the forearm, bending her elbow down and back and taking her balance that way, rather than trying to cut on her wrist. Sankyo is a different matter, I'd have to break her wrist/arm to make it work, which obviously I'm not prepared to do So again I just try to lead via the elbow.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006, 08:20 AM   #27
dmclean
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5
Canada
Offline
Question Re: No Sankyo

For those of you who are hit and miss with people of high pain tolerance for Sankyo, I have a question. Do you have the palm of uke's hand parallel to the forearm or more perpendicular?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2006, 01:50 AM   #28
Peter Ralls
Dojo: Suganami Aikikai SF
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

George

This is the way it is. In our prison system and high crime areas, if you have a beef with someone, and it turns into a physical confrontation,and you lose, this is what happens. If you do not violently take some action to restore your status, preferably against the person that beat you, you are regarded as a punk, and everyone's bitch to be disrespected and taken advantage of. Out on the street, the usual recourse is for the loser to come back with a gun. That is criminal's idea of "honor"

Now, you are correct that it is a little different when dealing with law enforcement or correctional staff. But that is largely because it is very rare for them to fight us one on one. We almost always have the advantage of numbers, if not at the beginning, then (hopefully) pretty quickly. So the honor comes in being a tough guy, taking on a bunch of cops and not just punking out by giving up. A crook that fights just one correctional officer or cop and loses doesn't get any respect, he is just thought of as a loser by his peers, unless the cop is a lot bigger than him. The last time I got in a squabble in the jail, and put the guy down, (with a punch), the guy was totally dogged by all the other inmates, and went from pod hero, for manipulating our phone system and getting free calls at the county's expense, which I had just put a stop to, to pod zero, even though he tried to get back at me by filing all sorts of complaints and greivances. (He charged me, I hit him.)

Now, from what I understand, Wayne is a civilian, supervising parolees in some kind of non-custodial setting. So he is neither a cop, nor a crook, but something in between. I can pretty much guarantee that this guy, having tried to punk Wayne and gotten physically slapped down, is taking all kinds of crap from his buddies, and did not go up in status for having honorable challenged authority and honorably lost. They probably won't think of him as a bitch for not getting back, but he certainly lost whatever tough guy status he might have had with them.

Now, the mental attitude you describe, that of being able to accept defeat and move on, is certainly possessed by certain people, but I can assure you it it is a pretty rare quality among violent criminals. When someone reaches that kind of maturity level, they usually stop being a crook. Now, the guy Wayne is describing is a twenty five year old convict with a lot of offenses under his belt. This guy is almost certainly a very immature, angry guy. This guy tried to punk Wayne by grabbing his money, and was totally shamed, first physically, and then by Wayne not turning him in. While this guy might not try anything further, because he's looking at a lot of time, I think you might be a little naive in thinking this guy hasn't lost a lot of status with his peers, has the capability of not feeling anger at Wayne for his situation, and is not a potential threat.

I'm sorry about some of the phrases I employ, they are not meant to offend anyone, but are the words the crooks would use themselves, and therefore the most descriptive ones for the situations I am trying to describe.

Peter
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2006, 08:59 AM   #29
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,623
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Quote:
Peter Ralls wrote:
George

This is the way it is. In our prison system and high crime areas, if you have a beef with someone, and it turns into a physical confrontation,and you lose, this is what happens. If you do not violently take some action to restore your status, preferably against the person that beat you, you are regarded as a punk, and everyone's bitch to be disrespected and taken advantage of. Out on the street, the usual recourse is for the loser to come back with a gun. That is criminal's idea of "honor"

Now, you are correct that it is a little different when dealing with law enforcement or correctional staff. But that is largely because it is very rare for them to fight us one on one. We almost always have the advantage of numbers, if not at the beginning, then (hopefully) pretty quickly. So the honor comes in being a tough guy, taking on a bunch of cops and not just punking out by giving up. A crook that fights just one correctional officer or cop and loses doesn't get any respect, he is just thought of as a loser by his peers, unless the cop is a lot bigger than him. The last time I got in a squabble in the jail, and put the guy down, (with a punch), the guy was totally dogged by all the other inmates, and went from pod hero, for manipulating our phone system and getting free calls at the county's expense, which I had just put a stop to, to pod zero, even though he tried to get back at me by filing all sorts of complaints and greivances. (He charged me, I hit him.)

Now, from what I understand, Wayne is a civilian, supervising parolees in some kind of non-custodial setting. So he is neither a cop, nor a crook, but something in between. I can pretty much guarantee that this guy, having tried to punk Wayne and gotten physically slapped down, is taking all kinds of crap from his buddies, and did not go up in status for having honorable challenged authority and honorably lost. They probably won't think of him as a bitch for not getting back, but he certainly lost whatever tough guy status he might have had with them.

Now, the mental attitude you describe, that of being able to accept defeat and move on, is certainly possessed by certain people, but I can assure you it it is a pretty rare quality among violent criminals. When someone reaches that kind of maturity level, they usually stop being a crook. Now, the guy Wayne is describing is a twenty five year old convict with a lot of offenses under his belt. This guy is almost certainly a very immature, angry guy. This guy tried to punk Wayne by grabbing his money, and was totally shamed, first physically, and then by Wayne not turning him in. While this guy might not try anything further, because he's looking at a lot of time, I think you might be a little naive in thinking this guy hasn't lost a lot of status with his peers, has the capability of not feeling anger at Wayne for his situation, and is not a potential threat.

I'm sorry about some of the phrases I employ, they are not meant to offend anyone, but are the words the crooks would use themselves, and therefore the most descriptive ones for the situations I am trying to describe.

Peter
I realize that the relationships in a correctional environment are complex. I have a number of fellow DT instructors who work in the verious jails and prisons around here. I have also done some instruction for some juvenile corrections folks as well. These days, a good proportion of the inmates have various mental illness that get little attention. The crack babies are coming of age and they don't track normally at all. Little of what would seem to be rational behavior has to do with how they see things.

My experince has been, from talking to my friends, and of course these guys are all DT instructors so they have a high skill set compared to the line officers, is that an officer can get a repuataion for being someone not to f*** with if he can do his techique fast and hard. A guard who can handle himself well, especially in a manner that isn't quite comprehensible to the inmates, gets some respect. Being beaten by that guy mat not rebound on the officer. There's a sort of attitude of "why were you so dumb to mess with so and so?"

One of my police officer students took a guy down so fast once that he didn't have a clue what had happened to him. He afterwards thanked Tom for not hurting him because he realized that if Tom was that good, he easily could have messed him up if he had wanted.

My friends who work in corrections have told me that it's really important to be strong but not vindictive. Everybody in the correctional environment knows that the inmates outnumber the guards substantially. If things get rough and the inmates start to fight, that guard who has been abusive or who humiliated the inmates is the first guy to get stabbed, In several of he major prison riots, many guards were taken hostage. The ones that survived were the ones that had been perceived as being "fair" with the inmates. The ones who had been abusive and brutal, the ones who went out of heir way to humiliate the inmmates died in the first few minutes of the takeover.

The whole thing you mentioned about the filing of greivances etc is sort of dioffernt I think. EVERYBODY in jail knows how to try to use the system against itself. That guy might not dare to take it to a fight with you again because he was taken out so efficiently. That deosn't mean that he won't use his copious free time to try to make life hard for you... what else do these guys have to do? I think that is more about trying to restore his own self esteem rather than anything to do with the jail pecking order.

In a predatory environment, the one overiding concern is to not appear to be "prey". You can have indvidual power but usually survival depends on collective power. Most guys in the serious jails and prisons end up in a gang for survival. Much of the violence in prison is the inmates against each other. These organized sub cultures within the jail wil largely leave the giuards alone if the guards leave them alone. An individual who us seen to have picked a fight with a guard and gets put down may be seen by the collective as having brought it on himself and the group won't take any action on his behalf. That's one of the reasons that the gang structure is tolerated in the prison system (of course stopping it would be impossible anyway) but it serves to impose some order on the system. But, as I said before, it is important that the inmate do not perceive that the guard is acting unfairly or is needlessly brutal. They'll go after him in that case.

Obviously this comes from converstaions I've had with my friends who wrk in that environment. I realize that when you get to the really serious prisons, the guys you find in there are often completely sociopathic, predatory types. My friends at Walla Walla had some guys there that had to be pepper sprayed EVERY time they took them out of the cell. They had to be coerced into compliance everytime no matter how simple the request. They couldn't be allowed near any other inmates because they'd go after anyone who breathed. When you get to this level of dysfunction, no rational structures apply to their behavior.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 01:51 PM   #30
Peter Ralls
Dojo: Suganami Aikikai SF
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

All very true.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2006, 04:49 AM   #31
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Would someone please explain the C-lock spine/head control for me?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2006, 09:40 AM   #32
roninroshi
 
roninroshi's Avatar
Location: MT
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 50
United_States
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Basically the locking arm forms a "C"shape around the head...the uke is bending foward your arm is wrapped around their head your forearm thumb up is coming across uke's face and jaw bone...this provide's the lever against the c-spine...grip the hand of the locking arm w/the opposite hand,drop your weight and lift cranking the neck and twisting at the same time...use care this is very dangerous and can break a neck if done w/speed...all your body weight is against his vertebrea and once the neck muscles are out of alighnment the neck cannot readjust...there a a few other way's to apply this lock as well...Matt Furey call's it a "neck crank"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neck_Crank
http://www.fightauthority.com/fight-video.php?lid=1420
what is shown in the clip I reversed and did from the front....
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2006, 09:55 AM   #33
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

And that ladies and gentlemen is why I don't do MMA.
Actually, I wrestled in high school and many of the techniques I see in MMA remind me very much of the techniques I learned in high school wrestling.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2006, 10:17 AM   #34
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Aha, thanks Wayne.
Seems like a cross-face neck-crank in guillotine position,
hence avoiding the throat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2006, 04:04 PM   #35
roninroshi
 
roninroshi's Avatar
Location: MT
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 50
United_States
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

More good info on the subject...
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/medi...ck%20cranks%22
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2006, 12:09 PM   #36
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Is Catherine Zeta-Jones on here too nowadays?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2006, 06:32 PM   #37
roninroshi
 
roninroshi's Avatar
Location: MT
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 50
United_States
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Who's is Catherine Zeta-Jone's???
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2006, 12:45 AM   #38
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Michael Douglass's wife of course!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2006, 12:25 PM   #39
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

C-lock, maybe this ;
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competit...ns06-12-17.jpg

If hotlink to the pic isn't working,
go about one quarter of the way down this page ;
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competit...s/lesson12.htm
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2006, 06:53 PM   #40
roninroshi
 
roninroshi's Avatar
Location: MT
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 50
United_States
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Good Stuff...Thanks
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2006, 09:43 PM   #41
Adam Huss
 
Adam Huss's Avatar
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 605
United_States
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

I'd have to agree with Ledyard Sensei. I have always been taught that causing pain is the lowest form of budo. When my teacher does sankajo or nikajo to me, I feel the most pressure on my lower back and hips. If you control someone, if you have their balance, you do not need to worry about their biology working against you. You can feel the uke through your grasp on his writs, through to his elbow and shoulder, feel the katameru take place, shift or slide or whatever, and you have him.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2006, 05:32 PM   #42
roninroshi
 
roninroshi's Avatar
Location: MT
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 50
United_States
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

The guy who's resistance to Sankyo and started this thread... is now back in jail...looking at 10 yrs!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2006, 11:09 AM   #43
Austin Power
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: No Sankyo

Some very good points in this thread, i am one of those individuals who doesn't lock up under the majority of locking techniques, which creates quite alot of problems on the matt at times.

I have to be in agreement with Ledyard Sensei that it is alot more about control than pain but again it is the kind of application you are going to use the sankyo for. If you are thinking a disarm or to have someone screeching then quickly pin then you could come very unstuck against someone who either has a high pain thresh hold or who bends and stretches with the technique. I suppose you could always henka waza your way out of it but from personal experience if someone uses it primarily for control it may not hurt but its very effective in getting them where you want them (i crash test dummy these things)

Before you go out and find someone to try these things on i must point out with a hard enough application of any wrist lock even the most flexible persons joints will give way eventually
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
sankyo John Matsushima Techniques 26 04-14-2007 08:49 AM
Article: Ikkyo, Nikyo, and Sankyo as Geometric Principles by Ross Robertson AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 3 06-21-2006 01:02 PM
Little Help Here...Sankyo kroh Techniques 3 01-18-2006 02:34 PM
traditional yokomenuchi sankyo rob_liberti Techniques 11 12-13-2004 10:18 AM
One class in the life of...(Photographed Edition) Veers General 14 07-16-2003 10:25 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:01 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate