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Old 10-03-2006, 10:19 PM   #126
dps
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand him, but it seems to me that Erick's formulation adds a level of complexity that doesn't really add to my understanding of the movement. In the language of physicists, it might be regarded as an "empty formalism," a restatement that doesnt help us get any deeper into the heart of the matter.
If it does not add to your understanding then I would not try to use it.
I use the memory of a spinning top that would topple when the spinning stopped as a basis of understanding what Erik is describing.
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Old 10-03-2006, 10:21 PM   #127
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
There, I think you need to observe more babies more closely. Unless an adult attaches intense emotion to their walking and falling, babies take both as ordinary miracles in stride. They typically don't even get flustered when they fall (unless they fall really hard) and just get up and keep on about their business.
A good correction and point taken. Please read it as amended -- "wail and flail like immature adolescents."

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
But even more than aikido, judo gives us a ground for the kind of play-fighting by which lions and tigers become strong and able fighters.
Oh, we play plenty, and in some ways we can go places in play that judo rules out, because of the manner of our play. And, humans are not like lions or or tigers -- sadly, they are far more vicious when they act in fear.
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
However, I do think that physics sometimes suffers the illusion (physicists may, at least) that it can and should be used to explain everything. And I think some things are best not attempted through rationality.
"Bodhi is no tree,
nor the mind a standing mirror bright.
Since all is originally empty,
where does the dust alight?"

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-03-2006, 10:36 PM   #128
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Isn't there a vertical componet to the chaotic figure eight?
Yes, but assuming a quiet stance it should be like drooping petals, since the balance is statically supercritical. That's why you need a long observaiton phase space plot to see the whole picture of the envelope. Chaotic systems often have unexpected features when they are seen in a complex plane plot.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-03-2006, 11:04 PM   #129
dps
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

When taking a step forward is the step an extension in the direction that the sway (chaotic figure eight) is already moving?
In other words there already is momentum in the direction of the step.

Last edited by dps : 10-03-2006 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 10-04-2006, 12:40 AM   #130
Upyu
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I see what you mean. Sorry I missed this earlier. Thanks for the video.

This actually helps me see something what Mike is so vaguely talking about, although it also confirms me further that he is wrong.

By reference to the front of his pants with the line of the mat just in front of them (but in background) you can see that the man on the right (apparently more skilled by the interaction), leans his hips forward just as he begins his push, but keeping his legs straight and his torso relatively steady. A straight leg pivot describes an arc, and if it is departing the center, it is headed downward, thus acclerating under force of gravity with no muscular input other that creating the topple.

So, while it seems "obvious" that like neither one has anything supporting their push, it is visually deceptive. The reaction to the push of the partners' arms is in fact absorbed by their own countering forward momentum, closely in rhythm. This is the closest I have seen to anything "springlike" but it is simply using that initiating forward momentum as the backstop for the backward reaction to the forward push.

AAANNDD most importantly -- it is angular momentum created by gravity accleration from an intentionally perturbed balance system that commences the whole thing.

Well ok taking this a step further,
say someone takes the pushout posture, only instead of pushing the partner, he "punches" him. How does the angular momentum you describe keep the "puncher" from being knocked back, and why would the "punched" person be knocked back instead?
Remember the person is weakest physically front to back.
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Old 10-04-2006, 10:13 AM   #131
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
When taking a step forward is the step an extension in the direction that the sway (chaotic figure eight) is already moving?
In other words there already is momentum in the direction of the step.
Yes. That is why walking the way we do is so efficient. By overdriving the balance sway slightly, which is almost free,we fall into our next step.

But this goes to your question about the possible vertical dimensions of the pattern in quiet stance, some analogs of which are probably seen in typical gross motion. And there is a gross difference in motion between in two important forms of that movement for aikido 1) walking 2) the sliding irimi step.

In walking the premium is on energy conservation. In irimi the premium is on stability conservation.

A gait is a regime that optimizes a certain performance feature of motion. Running optimizes maximum applied accleration (to obtain maximal dynamic inertia). Jogging optimizes for maximum total work (constant acceleration over distance). Walking optimizes conservation of total energy. and Irimi optimizes conservation of stability (obtaining greater static inertia -- the inverse of running) (Ah, stillness in motion).

In walking you loft the moving hip up and forward, this clears the foot from the ground and inputs an eccentric forward moment hat casue the leg to fall under gravity swinging freely forward. Once it passes center its momentum is stolen by the hips and that momenutm is used to carry the center over the swinging foot as it plants, with its hip still cocked up. The rocking momentum bringing the center over up over the planted foot is also used to create the forward eccentricity that gives the other leg potential forward swing and the lateral hip eccentricity to loft the other hip up and over to free the foot to swing, etc.

Walking requires mainly just the energy to lift and rock the leg forward with the hip slightly and keep the leg from collapsing under weight in a fall of about 1 cm. There really is no "push-off" in the most efficient form of gait -- although it can be added to accelerate the swing of the leg, this adds driving energy in the pendulum that is not necessary to the basic dynamic which is driven by gravity and manipulation of pivoting falls.

Irimi is a differnt gait, like walking, jogging and running are different gaits. Irimi is not not just a "driven" walking gait, as mentioned above.

Irimi is the inverse of walking, with emphasis on the horizontal rotaiton of the hips with the leg as a grounded pivot for horizontal swing , rather than the leg as rod pivoting vertically from the ground and hip, alternately. The advancing hip is in the direction of travel, like walking, but carrying the weight immediately onto the forward planted leg. This unloads the rear leg.

The moving leg is allowed to basically hang freely from the hip in a relaxed, non-rigid way. It is not free to rotate like a pendulum, i. e. - it is left propped loosely against the ground. The twist of that hip basically pulls it forward into the front position, and as the wieght shifts over that leg, it freeing the hips to rotate horizontally the other way, etc.

Irimi makes the unloaded hip hang lower than the loaded hip, (opposite to walking) making the gait a rotary horizontal hip-driven motion, rather than a hip-modulated vertical swing and fall under self-weight with the hip lofted in walking.

The stability benefit comes from the unloaded and dropped hip. Any upsetting moment in the body can be countered not only by the normal hip rotation and balance system with access to a freely swinging inertial moment arm. Extending the unloaded leg and hip outward creates magnified inertial dampening effect compared ot what both hips, rigidily connected to the ground, can do alone. The increased static inertial moment is positional -- relying on mass, orientation and radius, not timing or force. By dropping weight vertically 1 -2 cm over the weighted leg, the other leg now engages the ground firmly and thus becomes a brace as well.

The mechanics of irimi motion is more relaxed and fluid for stability efficiency. It is less rigid in its mechanics than walking, which relies on fairly straight-limb pendulum effects for energy efficiency.

In proper tai sabaki (especially in randori) I shift from one gait to the other, approaching an opponent by walking and then dropping into an irimi gait for contact, in the same manner as dropping gait from a a run to a jog, because the ground seems more diffcult going -- or from a jog to a walk, because I see something ahead that I need to navigate more carefully. Irimi is just the next step in that gait progression of care about positional stability.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-04-2006, 10:52 AM   #132
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Well ok taking this a step further,
say someone takes the pushout posture, only instead of pushing the partner, he "punches" him. How does the angular momentum you describe keep the "puncher" from being knocked back, and why would the "punched" person be knocked back instead?
Remember the person is weakest physically front to back.
Maai and centering. The punching movement is critically delivered to maximize impulse with the inertia of the body driving the arm like a nail. There is very little room for error.

At impact (when they all four come on line) the puncher is pushing a stick with four joints in it (you count the clavicle/scapula separate from the shoulder orbit).

Just a moment before impact the clavicle/scapula is still out of line (eccentric) with the line of the other three joints, because it is rotating to drive the arm forward. Uke intended to meet static interia with all four joints in line in linear compression. Instead, his arm becomes the conduit of the offset angular momentum of the rocking forward inertia couple with his opposing forward inertia.

His arm now forms the connection of a horizontal inertial couple with the pivot at his shoulder, instead of at his opposing hip. The reversal of eccentricity causes a vertical couple between that the punching shoulder and the opposing hip, rotating his torso more or less vertically backward at the top. Since his hips are busy rotating forward at the time, he is likely to go outside his recoverable balance sway almost instantaneously.

Centering is a very small drop of the center as contact is made. This is naturally done to avoid over centering on the toes with the forward sway . This imparts a slight downwrad rotation of the arm with the shoulder, creating the same sort of couple in the vertical plane. This ecccentririty causes the clavicle/scapula joint to rise as the arm ortate in the vertical plane

This adds even more moment arm length and energy to the existing vertical toppling rotation. That vertical toppling rotation was caused by the horizontal rotation created by the offset impact, and that horizontal rotation offset was created by the original vertical rotation forward.

This punching example nicely of ilulstrates how the rotations transform and effects cascade on different axes in complement


All from tottering forward -- delicately.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-04-2006, 01:37 PM   #133
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Well ok taking this a step further,
say someone takes the pushout posture, only instead of pushing the partner, he "punches" him. How does the angular momentum you describe keep the "puncher" from being knocked back, and why would the "punched" person be knocked back instead?
Remember the person is weakest physically front to back.
I realized that I answered your question in reverse configuration, but that was because the exercise shown on the video suggests that configuration, i.e. -- how the attacker's dynamic is disrupted.

You really wanted me to say how to beat people up this way, is that it??

The short answer is the same -- Maai and centering -- but in reverse... and who ever gives up first -- wins.

The only real difference is who is practicing aiki and who isn't.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-04-2006, 04:29 PM   #134
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Erick, reading your description, I'd definitely have to say I disagree.
If anything you're trying to eliminate any sway in your body, but like they say, this stuff is best understood if felt.
Power actually comes from compression of the "spine", and the principal behind delivery is much the same as agete (in my case anyways).
Be interesting to compare notes one day
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Old 10-04-2006, 05:37 PM   #135
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Erick, reading your description, I'd definitely have to say I disagree.
If anything you're trying to eliminate any sway in your body, but like they say, this stuff is best understood if felt.
Power actually comes from compression of the "spine", and the principal behind delivery is much the same as agete (in my case anyways).
Be interesting to compare notes one day
Look forward to it. How do you "compress the spine"?

And how do you mean "agete"? 挙げて?

Can you describe your best sense of the mechanics of it? If you mean that you are altering the lordosis or kyphosis curves, I may have some sense of what you mean, especially with the earlier yoga "downward dog" reference.

I have a very hard time getting a sense of how the countering moment is developed merely by letting the spine snap back into its curvature -- if that is the mechanism. The two curves are opposed in orientation and any induced moment from one would be cancelled out by the other.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-04-2006, 07:06 PM   #136
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Look forward to it. How do you "compress the spine"?

And how do you mean "agete"? 挙げて?

Can you describe your best sense of the mechanics of it? If you mean that you are altering the lordosis or kyphosis curves, I may have some sense of what you mean, especially with the earlier yoga "downward dog" reference.

I have a very hard time getting a sense of how the countering moment is developed merely by letting the spine snap back into its curvature -- if that is the mechanism. The two curves are opposed in orientation and any induced moment from one would be cancelled out by the other.
Er sorry, using our terminology again.
Agete simply means "raise hands"(上げ手), akin to what you guys probably call Kokyu dosa, but its simpler. There's no twisting of the wrists, and your hands are held down in your lap, and you raise them without using force in the arms.

The "compression" is done by pulling up and down at base of the neck, as well as the tailbone, which makes the lower back feels like it slightly compresses. There's other stuff that has to do with relaxing but push/pulling the pelvic crease, but that's an additional factor really.
I'd say that its not simply letting the spine snap back to its curvature, its like you compress it and as you let go, you still keep the compression there, which means you're always building up potential energy.
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Old 10-12-2006, 02:35 PM   #137
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Found this of interest in Second Dosshu's article entitled, not too ironically, "What is Akido?" :
Quote:
Kisshomaru Ueshiba "What is Aikido" wrote:
A spinning top revolves at a high speed around a stable center, yet hardly appears to move at all. If you touch the top slightly, however, it will immediately fly off with a burst of centrifugal force, and its latent power becomes evident. The energy radiated by a spinning top is a perfect example of "stillness within movement.

The Founder often described the state of stillness within moment as sumikiri, "total clarity of mind and body." This concept lies at the very heart of Aikido.
http://www.aikidoonline.com/Features/WhatisAikido.htm

FWIW

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:06 PM   #138
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

And what if you could manifest that "centrifugal"/torque force while it looks like you're standing still?
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