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Old 09-25-2006, 08:36 AM   #2
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
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Re: This is Cool

Nice quote. Source?

cg

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Old 09-25-2006, 09:35 AM   #3
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: This is Cool

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Nice quote. Source?

cg
Just a click away.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:59 AM   #4
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: This is Cool

Hate to disagree with name individuals, but...

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
[url=http://www.shinkendo.com/origins.html]The Edo era began a time of peace, which reigned for 265 years, and the concepts of budo began to change. At that time there existed 200 famous kenjutsu ryu-ha (sword traditions) and more than 3,000 lesser known ryu. Budo was no longer concerned with winning a battle, but geared toward the development of mind and spirit.
Quote:
I was just rereading Bodiford's excellent essay, "Religion and Spirituality: Japan," and he explicitly rejects this teleology. Karl Friday, in a personal communication 05/26/04, writes,

"The notion of michi, in the sense of the belief that efforts toward perfection in relatively mundane activities can be a path to enlightenment, seems to have begun to emerge during the early medieval period, growing out of a variety of roots (including Saicho's doctrine). The question of when it began to be applied to the bugei is a very thorny one. Most scholars would argue that budo (in the modern, not the contemporaneous sense of the word) didn't really appear until the Tokugawa period; that before that, bugei was about battlefield combat. I've become reasonably convinced that this idea goes back further, and that, in point of fact, ryuha bugei never had much of anything to do with battlefield combative training--that it was always a special sort of study of martial art, one with an eye toward the sorts of goals we now characterize as budo."
In budo, the goal was to be strong and effective, and as a by-product of hard training, the mind and spirit would develop naturally.
Don't believe this is true. There was explicit and rigorous thought, reading, discussion, argument, meditation, and exhaustive logical analysis involved in MICHI, which devolves in the line of Esoteric Buddhism. (As opposed to Exoteric B. which practices as per above, Esoteric practices intended to give the practitioner the EXPERIENCE of, in the case of Buddhism, enlightenment. Esoteric practice presupposes Exoteric groundwork. Ritual--KEIKO--was the means to experience. When MA-ists say you learn through the physical movement, I believe they are ignorant of a whole substrate of spiritual practice in Japan.)

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:01 AM   #5
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
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Re: This is Cool

Hate to disagree with name individuals, but...

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
[url=http://www.shinkendo.com/origins.html]The Edo era began a time of peace, which reigned for 265 years, and the concepts of budo began to change. At that time there existed 200 famous kenjutsu ryu-ha (sword traditions) and more than 3,000 lesser known ryu. Budo was no longer concerned with winning a battle, but geared toward the development of mind and spirit.
I was just rereading Bodiford's excellent essay, "Religion and Spirituality: Japan," and he explicitly rejects this teleology. Karl Friday, in a personal communication 05/26/04, writes,

"The notion of michi, in the sense of the belief that efforts toward perfection in relatively mundane activities can be a path to enlightenment, seems to have begun to emerge during the early medieval period, growing out of a variety of roots (including Saicho's doctrine). The question of when it began to be applied to the bugei is a very thorny one. Most scholars would argue that budo (in the modern, not the contemporaneous sense of the word) didn't really appear until the Tokugawa period; that before that, bugei was about battlefield combat. I've become reasonably convinced that this idea goes back further, and that, in point of fact, ryuha bugei never had much of anything to do with battlefield combative training--that it was always a special sort of study of martial art, one with an eye toward the sorts of goals we now characterize as budo."

Quote:
In budo, the goal was to be strong and effective, and as a by-product of hard training, the mind and spirit would develop naturally.
Don't believe this is true. There was explicit and rigorous thought, reading, discussion, argument, meditation, and exhaustive logical analysis involved in MICHI, which devolves in the line of Esoteric Buddhism. (As opposed to Exoteric B. which practices as per above, Esoteric practices intended to give the practitioner the EXPERIENCE of, in the case of Buddhism, enlightenment. Esoteric practice presupposes Exoteric groundwork. Ritual--KEIKO--was the means to experience. When MA-ists say you learn through the physical movement, I believe they are ignorant of a whole substrate of spiritual practice in Japan.)

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 09-27-2006, 09:28 PM   #6
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: This is Cool

Ricky,

Strange you should post this. I clicked on it and found Obata Sensei's article with this summary:

"After the battle of Heiji No Ran in 1159, the Heike defeated the Genji clan. The Heike leader, Taira No Kiyomori, assumed the powers of the emperor and initiated a political system, similar to that of the nobles. Due to this change, the Genji revolted. In March of 1185, Minamoto No Yoritomo led the revolution that ultimately was the downfall of the Heike clan. Then, in 1192, he became the first Shogun and established the Kamakura government. This government was made by and for the Samurai, and emphasized a government based upon bujutsu and spirit."

I just read Donald Richie's very interesting novel, "Memoirs of the Warrior Kumagai," which goes into deep detail on those days, based on extensive historical research. Reading that book shed a lot of light on my experiences in Japan, why the Japanese are as they are, why budo is as it is today.

Kumagai is a singular warrior and Richie presents him as primarily concerned with his own survival and betterment. Moreover, Kumagai, through Richie, promotes the idea that this is the only sensible way to live and that the stilted "loyalty" so heralded in the modern image of the samurai is largely bogus. Kumagai begins with the Minamoto, who support the Genji, then switches to the Taira (under Taira no Kiyomori) when the Minamoto are defeated. But the Taira decline and Kumagai is captured by the resurgent Minamoto (led by Minamoto no Yoritomo) and serves under him just as loyally as he had served under Kiyomori. As did all the samurai who were captured (if they weren't beheaded).

It throws a lot of light on the humanity of the Japanese and their human fallibility. It's based on "Heike no Monogatari" (Tale of the Heike). It will give you a deeper perspective on the roots of samurai culture and how it developed into the later forms. I highly recommend it.

Thanks for posting that.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 09-27-2006 at 09:30 PM.

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