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Old 08-29-2004, 07:24 PM   #1
Devon Natario
 
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Are there any Aikido styles..

..that incorporated ground fighting? I am just curious. With so many styles of Aikido out there, I was curious if one was eclectic enough to pull in and add ground fighting.

Devon Natario
Instructor
Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 08-29-2004, 08:06 PM   #2
Aristeia
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

None that I'm specifically aware of, although I suspect if you do a search on "Mits Yamashita" you may find something. Certainly I'm aware of a number of Aikidoka dabbling in BJJ and suspect that while it may not be apart of the official cirriculum a certain amount of groundfighting bleeds into the Aikido classes in these cases.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:26 AM   #3
kienergy1234
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

i thought aikido was a martial art without ground fighting
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:42 AM   #4
shihonage
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

I think Jason Delucia of http://www.aikidog.com/ may have something to say on the subject.
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Old 09-26-2004, 05:34 AM   #5
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Quote:
Joshua Dalton wrote:
i thought aikido was a martial art without ground fighting
Aikido was originally derived from an art designed for the battle field. O-Sensei stated that if you had to go to the ground, that was what Suwari waza was for.

Even in the classical ryu ha one didn't find much of what we would call submission fighting... if one did go to the ground with an opponent one used the techniques in "kumi uchi" or armored grappling to gain a position of advantage just long enough to access ones "yoroi doshi" or amor piercing dagger or even the tanto or shoto of the opponent, and finish him. If you rolled around with him for any length of time you could easily find yourself finished off by one of your opponent's friends.

If you look at the pins within Aikido, many are not something designed to cause someone to tap out and if you tried to hold them very long, someone skilled, like Jason Deluchia, would certainly be able to beat them eventually. They were only designed to hold long enough to allow you to finish off the opponent without him being able to counter with an offensive movement.

The whole structure of Aikido and Aikijujutsu basically presupposes an armed opponent, probaby with multiple weapons. If you look at what is contained in modern sport grappling there is a tremendous amount that would be a disaster to attempt if both of you were wearing weapons. There were some police departments in which some BJJ became popoular and they had a problem with officers losing the tools off their tool belts while trying to execute a perfectly legitimate submission technique. One of my Seattle Police Department students did this during a training exercise when a student at the academy tried an arm bar on him. He merely grabbed his practice gun out of the students own holster and "shot him". The student was quite crest fallen as he was about to sink the arm bar. I think this is the environment from which Aikido evolved and that's why there's no ground fighting the way we think of it. This is nothing against BJJ, it's great stuff and when done really well it's a sort of aiki on the ground. It's just a different historical context out of which it evolved.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 09-26-2004, 06:30 AM   #6
Matt Molloy
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Mr Ledyard, thank you.

That's one of the best explanations I've read on a subject that comes up again and again.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:56 AM   #7
DCP
 
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Happy birthday, Matt- I noticed the little cake Icon next to your name (that's cool Jun).

A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety.
- Aesop
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Old 09-26-2004, 08:43 AM   #8
Matt Molloy
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Thanks Daniel. I also got a nice email this morning from Aikiweb that I caught just before going off to training.

It helped as I was feeling a little old.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:01 AM   #9
Greg Jennings
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

I think that ground grapping is an interesting topic for exploration. While I'm not into aikido as purely a self-defense, I do want it to map to reality. If it doesn't, I wouldn't have anything to keep me "centered".

My reality has the possibility of being tangled up on the ground with a messed-up soccer dad and wanting to avoid hurting him. So, I spend some time on the side using that sort of thing as a "use case". My dad used to tell me "Chance favors the prepared mind."

I also cover some basic ideas in the last 10 minutes of class every so often...just the bare bones principles from an aikido perspective and a couple of straight-forward pins and escapes.

It amazes me how aikido-like it is. But maybe that's a case of "when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

Regards,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 09-26-2004 at 09:08 AM.

Greg Jennings
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:34 AM   #10
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

You don't have to "grapple" to follow aiki principles on the ground. Aikido (and aikibudo) is a "cutting" art, in my opinion, not grappling. Kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake apply when you're horizontal as well as vertical. Most aikido waza can be applied in a newaza situation. Part of our curriculum within the Jiyushinkai is devoted to newaza. Most everything we do in newaza would not be allowed in Kodokan Judo shiai. We do not attempt to hold osaekomi for any length of time, for example. We control the posture and structure in order to lock joints and make atemi on specific targets. There are few joints in our structure that can't be locked quickly if we're following the signals and openings that our opponent gives us. Our goal is to go to the ground only when necessary; and if we do, it shouldn't last long. We should always remember that there are multiple opponents in every case (even if they don't show up...).

And, just to make it clear... we do not practice Ueshiba ha aikido. Part of our lineage comes from that system; and we respect and treasure that history, but we also have other teachings that have the aiki principle at their core. We practice aikibudo.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:49 PM   #11
Don
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

I agree with Chuck. We practice aikikai aikido. We have a police officer who because of his work schedule is a 2nd kyu, even though he probably has had more practical experience applying aikido than most people. Anyway part of their police training was a BJJ "qickie course". Part of the course at the end was for the students to see if they could pin the instructor. In most cases the instructor easily pinned the students. Our guy however, pinned the instructor two or three times. When asked he told them he practiced aikido, and that everything he could see from a standing position in terms of aikido openings, he could see in a ground situation; it was just a matter of adpating from say kote gaeshi on a wrist to applying it on a leg etc. Now he may be the exception, but we practice aikido on the ground on a more or less regular basis, and it seems to help.
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Old 09-27-2004, 12:36 AM   #12
xuzen
 
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Aikido was originally derived from an art designed for the battle field. O-Sensei stated that if you had to go to the ground, that was what Suwari waza was for.

Even in the classical ryu ha one didn't find much of what we would call submission fighting... if one did go to the ground with an opponent one used the techniques in "kumi uchi" or armored grappling to gain a position of advantage just long enough to access ones "yoroi doshi" or amor piercing dagger or even the tanto or shoto of the opponent, and finish him. If you rolled around with him for any length of time you could easily find yourself finished off by one of your opponent's friends.

If you look at the pins within Aikido, many are not something designed to cause someone to tap out and if you tried to hold them very long, someone skilled, like Jason Deluchia, would certainly be able to beat them eventually. They were only designed to hold long enough to allow you to finish off the opponent without him being able to counter with an offensive movement.

The whole structure of Aikido and Aikijujutsu basically presupposes an armed opponent, probaby with multiple weapons. If you look at what is contained in modern sport grappling there is a tremendous amount that would be a disaster to attempt if both of you were wearing weapons. There were some police departments in which some BJJ became popoular and they had a problem with officers losing the tools off their tool belts while trying to execute a perfectly legitimate submission technique. One of my Seattle Police Department students did this during a training exercise when a student at the academy tried an arm bar on him. He merely grabbed his practice gun out of the students own holster and "shot him". The student was quite crest fallen as he was about to sink the arm bar. I think this is the environment from which Aikido evolved and that's why there's no ground fighting the way we think of it. This is nothing against BJJ, it's great stuff and when done really well it's a sort of aiki on the ground. It's just a different historical context out of which it evolved.
Dear George-san,

Good post, can I suggest that you keep this post in your inbox, should any similar query crop up, you reuse this post over and over again.

My take,

It is good to have an additional skill to have (that is - ground grappling) in ones' armenmantarium, but in combative situation, the goal is to floor and neutralize ones adversary in the least amount of time with the least amount of effort. I do not see any of the two aforemention advantages in ground grappling.

In fact I see very little role of submission grappling outside its sportive context. My take on shimewaza (choke) - at least that has some martial application, for example to take a prisoner/captive alive or to provide an effective no-permenant injury technique.

Regards,
Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 09-27-2004, 01:13 AM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
And, just to make it clear... we do not practice Ueshiba ha aikido. Part of our lineage comes from that system; and we respect and treasure that history, but we also have other teachings that have the aiki principle at their core. We practice aikibudo.
Hi Chuck,
I am not directly familiar with their curriculum but I suspect that the Yoseikan folks have a good ground work component given the importance of solid judo technique in their repertoire. Is this also true of the Tomiki style? Where did the ground work component in the Jiyushinkai come from?

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 09-27-2004, 01:57 AM   #14
PeterR
 
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Is this also true of the Tomiki style?
No the Aikido practiced by us (Tomiki/Shodokan) is purely stand-up - with respect to the curriculum.

Tomiki was pretty clear about distinguishing Aikido practice from Judo and I think newaza was pretty much considered Judo's domain. He also considered both arts to be the same with their different aspects contributing to the whole. I don't see him having any trouble with another appoach (ie Yoseikan or Chuck).

My last afterclass dust-up (ie randori) ended up going to ground and didn't stop there.

Last edited by PeterR : 09-27-2004 at 02:01 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-27-2004, 03:50 AM   #15
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Thanks, Peter.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 09-22-2006, 12:05 PM   #16
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Although we do not include newaza in the grading syllabus we quite often do ground work to warm up amongst the more advanced students. I often participate myself when in the mood! although I have to say my stamina is not up to what it used to be but at 53 I shouldn't expect too much! As stated by Mr Ledyard above, we often start from a suwariwaza position IE tegatana - tegatana position and away we go! It is in fact quite enjoyable for me and those students who are game to do it! Its not everyone's cup of tea though! My grounding in aikido stems from 11 years with the British Aikido Association which was (and still is) the Tomiki/Shodokan org., I think this kind of approach was down to my teachers influence in that they were also judo enthusiasts as well. whether judo newaza is still taught within the B.A.A. I wouldn't know. But then again it was never required for gradings. One student who has recently competed his Uni degree and now working in Winchester at a secondary school nearby was and still is a judo player naturally laps up newaza and yet has difficulty pinning and handling a fellow member who has only ever practised T/S Aikido.
My personal opinion is they complement each other well!
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Old 09-22-2006, 07:01 PM   #17
Dominic Toupin
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I am not directly familiar with their curriculum but I suspect that the Yoseikan folks have a good ground work component given the importance of solid judo technique in their repertoire.
You are right Mr. Ledyard. In Yoseikan aikido, we practice suwari waza like other aikido practitioner but we also do ne waza and ground randori with judo techniques and other jujitsu techniques that are banned in judo

Last edited by Dominic Toupin : 09-22-2006 at 07:03 PM.

Dominic
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:47 PM   #18
Edwin Neal
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

Wadokai schools do ne waza in addition to the more traditional suwari waza... not rolling, but more like Xu was expessing quickly finishing the encounter...

Edwin Neal


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Old 09-22-2006, 11:08 PM   #19
Edwin Neal
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Re: Are there any Aikido styles..

just thought i would add this example of ne waza... guess who?

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...ic&p=1101#1101

Edwin Neal


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