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Old 09-10-2006, 10:02 PM   #326
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
try it justin
This was already discussed.


Justin

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Old 09-11-2006, 06:19 PM   #327
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Here is a link to an interesting application of a "soft/internal"style punch from the Systema fighting
method...http://www.rmaxinternational.com/mam...alstriking.wmv
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Old 09-11-2006, 06:29 PM   #328
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Wayne Gorski wrote:
Here is a link to an interesting application of a "soft/internal"style punch from the Systema fighting
method...http://www.rmaxinternational.com/mam...alstriking.wmv
Hi Wayne:

I sort of disagree, if you don't mind my 2 cents. In a sense the demonstrator shows that you can put your mass into a reasonably soft arm by dropping the elbow and putting the body momentum forward... although that's of course going to be part of many good punches like that, it's not necessarily "soft/internal".

BTW, try this clip of push-hands and think of it as an Aikido exercise... there's a pretty obvious relationship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7H-cWlfVA0&NR

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:24 PM   #329
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Hey Mike,
Thank's for the info...I see what you mean,appreciate the head's up...
Wayne G
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:28 AM   #330
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Here's some guys doing Bagua push-hands. The little guy is apparently a Bagua practitioner more than anything else, judging by the postures and techniques that he uses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eM1...related&search
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Old 09-13-2006, 10:49 AM   #331
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

By the way, not to lose sight of the original intent of the thread... the idea of using some form of push-hands-like practice in Aikido is to increase the number of exercises overtly focusing on Kokyu/jin development. Input about basic jin/kokyu usage from Ushiro Sensei's karate, from Bagua, from Taiji, etc., should, IMO, only be thought of in terms of *potential* ideas to increase the amount of kokyu/jin (most times, a lot of Aikido texts/sects refer to it as "ki power") being done in Aikido dojo's. Nothing more. No "replacement of Aikido with things from other arts", because I think that anyone who does that is missing the point of what complete Aikido has in its own right.

Shioda Kancho makes a telling comment about how Japanese arts have so easily lost some of these basic skills:

http://www.shindokanbooks.com/sample...20shugyo%22%22

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:20 AM   #332
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

The article doesn't refer to it as "kokyu/jin", however.

But one point I'd like to ask the article writer is what is the evidence for saying that other martial arts stressed "kokyu power" in the first place? That way, one could begin to assess the truthfulness of the oft-heard claim that things are "lost".

And then if things are truly lost, we have to ask why, as a thing not present does not necessarily equate to bad. For example, another style could have evolved to be more effective without it.


Justin

Last edited by statisticool : 09-13-2006 at 11:26 AM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 09-13-2006, 02:20 PM   #333
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Justin
The author of the extract you are referring to above is Gozo Shioda, founder of Yoshinkan Aikido, who passed away in the 1990s. You not knowing that leads me to ask your purpose in all the comments you have made in the treads here? I understand that you have issues with Mike Sigman and I get the sense that you feel that there is nothing beyond the mechanical and the refinement of the mechanical....so what is your purpose? I have not seen much in the way of substance in your comments, mostly the continual asking and re-asking of the same question or a rephrasing of the same contention that there is no internal...just the mechanical. I don't know what is beyond the continual refinement of the applicable mechanical principles, maybe it is just more levels of refinement until a point is reached that one can't explain it without experiencing it. I don't know as I have not gotten there yet. So it seems to me that unless you start adding substance to your arguments, substance based on experience and training, you are just shouting in a noisy room.......while no one can hear you I don't think anyone is listening either.

Please don't send me a PM, if you have something to say say it here
Gary
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Old 09-13-2006, 03:24 PM   #334
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

I don't really want to get started on this, but maybe it will have some positive effect....it seems to me the best thing to do when "Justin addresses Sigman" is to just ignore the comments made by Justin. Every thread that Mike Sigman starts or participates in quickly degenerates into this business, much to the detriment of some really good topics. Justin has demonstrated time and again his comments are usually useless and are the same repetitive efforts to agitate Mike. There have been many replies to Justin's continual posting, aimed with the intent of getting him to stop, which haven't had any effect so far.
So, FWIW my advice will be to Mike: just stop replying to Justin so that we can focus on the topics at hand, and gain from your obvious valuable contributions to the site.
I have personally gained a lot to think about from Mike's comments and posts, and the generally intelligent (and often controversial) conversations they spark. I think we all have a lot to gain from the information he offers. I would prefer them to continue, and not have to be relegated to the "Open Discussions" forums every time this silliness starts.
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Old 09-13-2006, 03:34 PM   #335
Michael Young
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Going back to the Systema stuff,

I've had a little "hands on" opportunity with the Systema guys, and though I haven't felt your stuff Mike, I did view your video (great stuff BTW, I'll be PMing you some more soon with some questions)...The strikes in Systema seem "whip-like" in that they use ground force in a wavelike fashion traveling through the body's joints starting from the foot. Whereas what I saw in your video was that the arm stays straighter while the force comes from the foot (ground), to the knee, then hip, transfering and "storing" in the back, and then released through the outstretched arm. It seems like the Systema guys are doing it somewhat the same without the "storing" in the back.
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Old 09-13-2006, 04:04 PM   #336
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

I was thinking about the sentences in Shioda Sensei's book:

Another important point is that kokyu power is not limited to Aikido alone. Originally, it was certainly a part of all Japanese martial arts. While it was referred to by different names, Judo, Karat or any of the various other martial arts all had ways of practising kokyu power.

It dawns on me that I'm actually adding to the problem of the "different names" because I deliberately (but with usually an explanation on any forum before I do so) split the whole "ki" thing ("kokyu" is technically just the physical manifestation of "ki", so technically "kokyu" is "ki power") into 2 parts, ki and kokyu.

As I've mentioned before, you can't really separate ki and kokyu because they are part of the same thing, however, I do it in order to try and clarify/simplify the topic. Could we switch completely to western terminology and have done with it? No, because "ki" is a name that encompasses a defined set of parameters (i.e., not everything is ki; there is indeed a logic that has to be maintained). If "ki" refers to, let's say for example, six separate phenomena that happen to work together to perform some functional whole, trying to find a single western term that already defines these phenomena's functional whole is currently impossible. So we're left talking in a very fragmented way.

Making things worse is the problem that Shioda Kancho mentions... different styles developed different idiomatic ways of describing the phenomena. And heck, since there are different levels of sophistication and skill-levels within the phenomena, it really gets confusing. On top of it all, these things are traditionally (even back to the Indian origins, apparently) kept secret because they give an edge against your opponents in battle. A wild, wild scenario.

So what do you do when the skills and how to develop them are not widely known? It becomes difficult. My advice is to go see people like Ushiro Sensei, Akuzawa Sensei (via Rob John), or Abe Sensei, or others (Inaba, Sunadomari, etc.) and ask (as Ellis Amdur recommended) and probe in order to get as much information as possible.

There are some instructors that are already doing some pretty good work on these topics (I saw a video-clip the other night of a California sensei that was pretty darned good in his approach and logic), but my personal opinion is that more data can be gathered and pooled and more focused effort (like a push-hands-like approach) can be added to various curricula. But hey, we all have opinions, don't we?

Mike
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Old 09-13-2006, 04:20 PM   #337
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:
The strikes in Systema seem "whip-like" in that they use ground force in a wavelike fashion traveling through the body's joints starting from the foot. Whereas what I saw in your video was that the arm stays straighter while the force comes from the foot (ground), to the knee, then hip, transfering and "storing" in the back, and then released through the outstretched arm. It seems like the Systema guys are doing it somewhat the same without the "storing" in the back.
Well, bear in mind that those tapes are fairly old and at the time I was only concerned with people "getting" some sort of foot-in-the-door skill of just the jin; it wasn't any full exposition and I couldn't give a full exposition anyway, at my level. I was afraid to mention much about breathing skills because there are some risks to breathing practice when it's done wrong and to put things like that on a tape would increase legal exposure. Besides, in the intervening years I've learned a lot more, so I don't think of those tapes as being up-to-date.

In terms of the "whip-like" motion, I thought (I haven't seen any of those tapes for years) I ultimately showed a few examples of more whiplike usage (or at least a step in that direction).... HOWEVER, I tend to avoid the "whiplike" or "like a wave" discussions until I see what someone is talking about. I've seen a LOT of "whiplike" motions and hits that I think are fairly limited parodies of power strikes. Doing something like "Dragon-back" exercises is cool, but if you don't know how to keep the jin-path as the core along which the wave moves, it just becomes a "cool movement".

Another problem is that ideal movement goes from large to small. If you think about a rope being loosely stretched between you and a partner and you "shake a wave" toward your partner, the wave will move at a speed that is proportional to how loosely or tightly the rope is stretched. If you tighten the tension in the rope, the wave speeds up. What I'm getting at is that part of your training has to do with beginning to "tighten up" (but not in a muscular sense) the connection throughout your body. The exercises that Rob uses do that, too, BTW. Ultimately, the good/professional release of power is not with any whipping motion, but appears to be just a slight movement of the body. "Stillness in motion", as it were.

In terms of not using the back, if you don't start using the back, you never can really develop "movement from the hara" in its full sense. I remember reading Jay Gluck's "Zen Combat" many years ago and the description of how supple Tohei was, in his ability to move his middle, often has made me think that many modern Aikidoists have missed out on some very crucial training. The waist should "crawl like a snake", was the ancient saying.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 09-13-2006, 04:39 PM   #338
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Gary,

Quote:
Please don't send me a PM, if you have something to say say it here
Gary
I simply responded to the contents of the article that was posted, and the commentary upon it, and will not respond to your personal comments here.. nor in a PM.

Back to the article, do you believe there is evidence for kokyu power having been in other martial arts?


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 09-13-2006, 04:44 PM   #339
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:
Justin has demonstrated time and again his comments are usually useless and are the same repetitive efforts to agitate Mike.
Michael,

I understand what you are saying: asking for evidence genearlly agitates you and agitates the person making the claim.

However, one's response is beyond my control (and you pretend Mike's comments, which are of a more personal nature) simply don't exist), and I will still continue asking for evidence.

I'd personally hope someone making a claim would have some evidence so one can intelligently assess their claims. Sadly, I find that that isn't always the case.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 09-13-2006, 05:12 PM   #340
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Michael and Gary:
The simplest solution to Justin's situation is to simply add him to your ignore list. That's what a number of us have done.

Mike:
On the kokyu/ki qi/jing terminology: I have had a difficult time discussing this with people for two reasons:
1. Hippie type people who want to make it a mystical experience and substitute for hard work (instead of a result of hard work)
2. Science oriented folks who recoil from it and start insisting that "there's nothing to it but good mechanics."

I mean I think in the qi/ki paradigm when I'm playing with my own practice but perhaps we should try to find another word for it? Something that focuses people on the fact that these words exist to describe _feelings_ in the body, and are not necessarily an explanation of what his happening.

The only downside to this is that if we do that it will effectively cut off new practitioners from being able to read/understand some of the older literature (re: Buddhist/Neo-Confucian etc) or even Wang Xiangzhai's stuff. I don't know the answer here...maybe we need to have a dictionary somewhere online?
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Old 09-13-2006, 05:25 PM   #341
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
On the kokyu/ki qi/jing terminology: I have had a difficult time discussing this with people for two reasons:
1. Hippie type people who want to make it a mystical experience and substitute for hard work (instead of a result of hard work)
2. Science oriented folks who recoil from it and start insisting that "there's nothing to it but good mechanics."

I mean I think in the qi/ki paradigm when I'm playing with my own practice but perhaps we should try to find another word for it?
That's a good point, Tim. As I said, there is no western word that encompasses the gestalt whole of what is meant by the body attributes/skills of "ki". If I had to come up with a term that would satisfy my own personal view, perhaps "Body Ki" would work, because that separates the skills and physical attributes from the "mysterious force within all things in the Universe" stuff.

And as I mentioned in a few other posts, the "ki" skills/attributes of the human body are reasonably finite and defined, so attaching a qualifier and saying "body ki" might work and still keep the original connotations somewhat intact. Just a stab at it.

Mike
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Old 09-13-2006, 05:39 PM   #342
Michael Young
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, bear in mind that those tapes are fairly old and at the time I was only concerned with people "getting" some sort of foot-in-the-door skill of just the jin; it wasn't any full exposition and I couldn't give a full exposition anyway, at my level. I was afraid to mention much about breathing skills because there are some risks to breathing practice when it's done wrong and to put things like that on a tape would increase legal exposure. Besides, in the intervening years I've learned a lot more, so I don't think of those tapes as being up-to-date.

In terms of the "whip-like" motion, I thought (I haven't seen any of those tapes for years) I ultimately showed a few examples of more whiplike usage (or at least a step in that direction).... HOWEVER, I tend to avoid the "whiplike" or "like a wave" discussions until I see what someone is talking about. I've seen a LOT of "whiplike" motions and hits that I think are fairly limited parodies of power strikes. Doing something like "Dragon-back" exercises is cool, but if you don't know how to keep the jin-path as the core along which the wave moves, it just becomes a "cool movement".

Another problem is that ideal movement goes from large to small. If you think about a rope being loosely stretched between you and a partner and you "shake a wave" toward your partner, the wave will move at a speed that is proportional to how loosely or tightly the rope is stretched. If you tighten the tension in the rope, the wave speeds up. What I'm getting at is that part of your training has to do with beginning to "tighten up" (but not in a muscular sense) the connection throughout your body. The exercises that Rob uses do that, too, BTW. Ultimately, the good/professional release of power is not with any whipping motion, but appears to be just a slight movement of the body. "Stillness in motion", as it were.

In terms of not using the back, if you don't start using the back, you never can really develop "movement from the hara" in its full sense. I remember reading Jay Gluck's "Zen Combat" many years ago and the description of how supple Tohei was, in his ability to move his middle, often has made me think that many modern Aikidoists have missed out on some very crucial training. The waist should "crawl like a snake", was the ancient saying.

FWIW

Mike
Yes, in your video, you do show an example of a "whip-like" action out to the fingers (or perhaps "wave-like" action is a more apt description). You used a ball attached to your fingers (with a piece of velcro I think) that flew off at the end of the motion to demonstrate the power transfer.
The concept of using the back, or spine, to store and transfer power from the ground/hips is something new to me...so I really should qualify that my basis of comparison is pretty limited. I wasn't making a value judgement, just more of a general observation from the limited stuff I've scene/felt...of course my ulterior motive was to get more observations from you

Tim, I have already done as you suggest.

-Mike (the other Mike)
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Old 09-13-2006, 10:48 PM   #343
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Tim
As suggested....on the list
Gary
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Old 09-14-2006, 10:18 AM   #344
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:
Yes, in your video, you do show an example of a "whip-like" action out to the fingers (or perhaps "wave-like" action is a more apt description). You used a ball attached to your fingers (with a piece of velcro I think) that flew off at the end of the motion to demonstrate the power transfer.
The concept of using the back, or spine, to store and transfer power from the ground/hips is something new to me...so I really should qualify that my basis of comparison is pretty limited. I wasn't making a value judgement, just more of a general observation from the limited stuff I've scene/felt...of course my ulterior motive was to get more observations from you
Hi Mike:

Heck, it's been so long since I even thought about those tapes, I'm not sure what's in them. That's a pretty valid demonstration and it cuts to the core of the matter. There is a relaxed path to the ground and you "store" *exactly along the path* and you release *exactly along the path*.... i.e., it is like the ground-path expands like an un-telescoping radio antenna on a car. The other part is that you allow (this takes "feel" or someone to show you how) the momentum of the unstoring back-bow/torso to transfer to the hand (I could explain it, but it's too cumbersome to do it succinctly; easy to show). There's a third critical factor and a fourth critical factor that I didn't discuss in the video since it was just a "basics" video, but those too would involve showing and even then until certain parts of the body are built up, it doesn't mean much in the explanation. Not being coy, just acknowledging the limits of communication via the internet.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 09-17-2006, 05:06 PM   #345
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Check this out...http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=...&v=f2hRJdUpJ8w
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Old 09-18-2006, 04:48 PM   #346
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Wayne Gorski wrote:
Wayne, I can't get that thing to play. I sign in and confirm that I want to see that kind of content. The screen comes up with the title and it says "Loading" but it never does anything else. The clips in the column to the right of the screen all play--the ones I've tried--but not the 2-person Shanxi Set. I've tried on both PC and Mac. Got any idea what's the deal with that?

Thanks,

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-18-2006, 04:57 PM   #347
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Wayne, I can't get that thing to play.
I had some problems with it a few times. I *think* it's something to do with their "violence" restrictions, but I don't know for sure. It's not really push-hands, more some 2-man drills from Xingyi doing attack and defend in turns. Not bad at all, just not anything that would add to the focus on jin/kokyu development in Aikido, IMO. YMMV.


Mike
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Old 09-18-2006, 04:59 PM   #348
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Mike, thanks. I would like to see that clip. Those were some interesting clips you posted earlier, also.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:42 PM   #349
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

David I just got it to play...didn't have any trouble.I have a Mac as well...I sent you a PM concerning
the file...
Regard's,
Wayne
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:32 PM   #350
Michael Young
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

hmmm, I too am having problems with it playing. Maybe its because I use Firefox browser instead of I.E.?
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