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Old 08-25-2006, 03:08 PM   #26
statisticool
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

One feels they can speak on what Tohei would or would not have done, as well as what knowledgeable Chinese/Japanese, and knowledgeable Asians would do.

One sees a claim of psychic powers, and the debate tactic to imply that those that disagree with you are stupid. Interesting.


Justin

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"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-25-2006, 09:43 PM   #27
Charles Hill
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

I was one of those people who went to Ayabe/Kameoka to try to learn chinkon kishin and was told much the same thing. The details I got were that a number of people jumped off of roofs while possessed. I also think that it is important to understand that chinkon kishin is a or has become a kind of standardized term with many kinds, similar to kotodama. From what I have understood, what one can learn of chinkon kishin from various sources today is not what Onisaburo taught.

Also, the idea that chinkon = shingon might have have a grain of truth to it, but in my opinion nothing can be made of such a connection. The two practices/philosophies are quite different in many ways.

Charles
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Old 08-26-2006, 08:32 AM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
I was one of those people who went to Ayabe/Kameoka to try to learn chinkon kishin and was told much the same thing. The details I got were that a number of people jumped off of roofs while possessed.
Liang Shou Yu in Canada is sort of a repository of qigong information and a long time ago he showed one of the "possession" type qigongs. To make a long story short, in my early thirties I did some research for a couple of years on the pendulum phenomenon, and other things (my reasoning was that this stuff was so worldwide that there might be something interesting there) and I learned to relax and feel a certain point when "communication" (presumably the subconscious) was there. Never learned anything worthwhile from the pendulum... I personally felt like it was interesting, but just an aspect of human consciousness. The point was that I could tell when the subconsicous "engaged".... kind of a presence feeling. I remember feeling it appear and I though "well, hello there".

So while a bunch of us were dutifully doing what Liang Shou Yu was leading us through, I suddenly felt that same "engagement" that I'd felt with the pendulum, etc.

I saw some people do some strange things while that "engagement" was taking place, but I felt like a lot of it was semi-faked.... like someone who wants badly to be hypnotized and is over-acting while they are "under", if you understand what I'm saying. Conversations privately later with Liang Shou Yu left me with the feeling that he felt there was an element of personality creating the different reactions, too.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 08-26-2006, 09:34 AM   #29
Mark Uttech
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

So Mike, as in all other things, a strong personality makes all the difference in the world? Or is it that the strong personalities are the ones that get the attention? A strong personality has strong energy? Useful reflections.

In gassho,
Mark
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Old 08-26-2006, 09:48 AM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
So Mike, as in all other things, a strong personality makes all the difference in the world? Or is it that the strong personalities are the ones that get the attention? A strong personality has strong energy? Useful reflections.
Hmmmm, no, I wouldn't say that's completely true, if we're just talking about the "possession" type qigongs. Strong personality, yes, but if I had to try to put my finger on it more precisely, I'd say a "need for attention" (and not meaning that in either a positive or negative way). But then of course a lot of people with "strong personalities" also have a self-absorptive need for "look at me", too, don't they. And BTW, I'm not saying that in a negative way... the ego-maniacs, trying to prove how great they are, often do just that. It can be a useful motivator, as long as it doesn't get out of control.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 08-26-2006, 01:38 PM   #31
David Orange
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Mike, so you like Liang Shou Yu? Do you feel like he knows his stuff where qi is concerned?

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-26-2006, 04:06 PM   #32
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Mike, so you like Liang Shou Yu? Do you feel like he knows his stuff where qi is concerned?
David, have you ever seen my posts where I deliberately separate out qi and jin? Bearing that in mind, Liang Shou Yu knows more about qi generally than any other Chinese person I know.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 02:34 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Wow, high recommendation. I take it he doesn't use facets of ki to 'source' his power? Hmm, maybe a search is in order...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-28-2006, 09:57 PM   #34
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote:
As for spirit posession..to me it looks like O-Sensei got involved in the Omoto movement in part due to the chinkon kishin being practiced there. If the phenomenom experienced of unconscious communication is related to the body development experienced by this type of training, which would also be related to the development of internal strength, it makes it part of the whole of aikido no?
..
dude - this thought *is* crazy.
but i've thought this before too.
I was also thinking that; you know, there are people in this world who would sell their souls for ultimate marshall skill. There are people who would seek the council of demons; *no matter the cost* (/not in Aikido, tho). In history there must've been people willing to *do anything*.
And what worries me is that a lot of the secret hidden things they did, are similar/(can be arguably similar in concept to some of the deeper things/internal pursuits/alchemy) to some of the knowlege that is coming out to general public consumption. This internet thing is really unlike anything the worlds' seen so far.

If this *is* part of the 'whole of aikido', then what do *you* think?

For myself, I find Aikido, as designed, is the pursuit of a transformative experience meant to tap the 'infinite-potential' (proffered by /secular/ humanism). Ultimately it is as a Japanese Yoga path. A yoke-ing of the mind and spirit. Becoming one with the cosmos. In harmony with the Tao. Ki no musubi. A slave-to-the-mind-till-wakeup-then-the-Embrace-that-Smothers - dissolution-(hence; spirit posession/channelling) if taken to the logical extreme. One objection a Christian could have about this practice (*Aikido*, And here I mean only the physical exercise; *not* the ChinkonKishin/deeper-mystery-mikkyo things, (of which Ki-I believe, is one, and there are potential *traps* everywhere!)) is that completely allowing this transformative practice to take a 'pervasive influence' on you; and being pervasively influenced by it (u know who), means a (conscious) conscious exertion of will-power, which will choke out the Word and cares of the things of God. Attention is like time; Sincereity is the quality.
The main objection a Christian could have about the practice of ChinkonKishin itself is that this is directly forbidden in the Bible as a cultivation (paraphrasing) of relationships with familiar spirits.


another question I have; is that if O-Sensei said this of enlightenment:

Enlightenment or delusion?
Who is to say which person has which
Like the evening moon they appear and fade
Not one knows exactly when.

Then if this is the nature of the knowledge of the (this/) inner path (e.g. which personally was my experience of these things: bewildering, and uncertain), what does that say about the inherent *Quality* of these truths proffered by the system?

..typed too much today..

whatever.

[edit] ps Alfonso - after rereading; i realize i may have missed the mark and did a complete misread of your post...if so; (1)let me know, and (2)i'm sorry. i probably just wanted to rant for some time...

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 08-28-2006 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 08-29-2006, 09:10 AM   #35
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
...an american buddhist background...When questioned in a courtroom about the existence of "Ki" years ago, I simply raised my arm and put it back down. "That was ki, your honor, nothing special about it..."
Mark,

Two things in your post make me ask the following questions:

What is distinctive about an "american" buddhist background?

And, what's the story behind testifying in a court of law about Ki?

Truly that must have been a curious event in middle america ?

joe
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:24 AM   #36
Alfonso
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote:
dude - this thought *is* crazy.
...
[edit] ps Alfonso - after rereading; i realize i may have missed the mark and did a complete misread of your post...if so; (1)let me know, and (2)i'm sorry. i probably just wanted to rant for some time...
Well I'm sure I wasn't exactly on the same track as you , just brining up a question about the psychology of aikido maybe.

I'm not a Religious person so I wasn't seeing this side of the issue

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:24 AM   #37
Mark Uttech
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Joseph Bowen wrote:
Mark,

Two things in your post make me ask the following questions:

What is distinctive about an "american" buddhist background?

And, what's the story behind testifying in a court of law about Ki?

Truly that must have been a curious event in middle america ?

joe
Buddhism in China and Japan became distinctly Chinese and Japanese. Although Buddhism was introduced in America more than a hundred years ago, it is becoming more visible in the mainstream now.
The court story I told was actually a case where I was being challenged with corrupting my children during visitations by my exwife, who was a fundamentalist christian. She told the judge that the aikido dojo was a buddhist temple that taught the mysterious power of "ki". Anyway, the judge saw my side and even ok'd bowing as a practice. Of course, the exwife then went to the catholic priest of my parish, but he also blessed the bowing practice.

In gassho,
Mark
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Old 09-04-2006, 05:29 PM   #38
Astig Kamao
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

When I was a kid growing up in Manila i saw possessions. They did not do the 360 turn with the head, no white eyes, and the dead (zombie) looking face. However they have the voice change and multi lingual thing happening. It was oh so scarey.

I think it is in the belief. We were surronded by faith healers and believers. I think if there is actually someone out there passionately believing in it, they feed that belief enough energy to actually manifest itself.
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:14 PM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Michael Siminig wrote:
However they have the voice change and multi lingual thing happening. It was oh so scarey.

I think it is in the belief.
I pretty much agree, Michael. One of my teachers had studied biology in college when he grew up in China and he was also quite skilled in martial arts and qigongs. When we asked him one time how in the world he did a certain demonstration, he said, "Some people call it qi. But really it is just that the human body can be conditioned more than most people understand it can be".

A lot of the "possessions" and dramatic phenomena, IMO, simply represent the odd things the body is capable of doing when more of its innate skills are understood".

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-06-2006, 04:14 AM   #40
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Buddhism in China and Japan became distinctly Chinese and Japanese. Although Buddhism was introduced in America more than a hundred years ago, it is becoming more visible in the mainstream now.
The court story I told was actually a case where I was being challenged with corrupting my children during visitations by my exwife, who was a fundamentalist christian. She told the judge that the aikido dojo was a buddhist temple that taught the mysterious power of "ki". Anyway, the judge saw my side and even ok'd bowing as a practice. Of course, the exwife then went to the catholic priest of my parish, but he also blessed the bowing practice.
In gassho,
Mark
I see you point about the Buddhism, but I would not think that we (meaning Americans) have progressed so far as to have a unique flavor of Buddhism all of our own. Surprisingly, both Korean, and Thai Buddhism seems to be as prevalent in the US as Chinese and Japanese Buddhism. So, my general and probably inaccurate assessment is that we're still tasting from the many flavors, but I'll readily admit that I'm really not in a position to provide an informed opinion, that's just my intuitive feel for the situation.
My sympathies on the difficulties with your exwife. That kind of thing can be exceedingly difficult and I thank you for sharing the information.
In gassho,
Joe
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:22 AM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
I was one of those people who went to Ayabe/Kameoka to try to learn chinkon kishin and was told much the same thing. The details I got were that a number of people jumped off of roofs while possessed. I also think that it is important to understand that chinkon kishin is a or has become a kind of standardized term with many kinds, similar to kotodama. From what I have understood, what one can learn of chinkon kishin from various sources today is not what Onisaburo taught.

Also, the idea that chinkon = shingon might have have a grain of truth to it, but in my opinion nothing can be made of such a connection. The two practices/philosophies are quite different in many ways.
Hi Charles:

I meant to add something, but just finally remembered it. Take a look at one of the original reference pages:
http://www.budodojo.com/chinkon-kishin.htm

Look at the picture of Ueshiba doing his meditation (2 men in the picture). Notice Ueshiba's hands doing the Lin (Immoveable) Seal from the Jiuzi Miling (the Nine Esoteric Seals). I think the relationship between this "Shinto" practice and Chinese Buddhism is pretty much inescapable.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:46 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

I'm not very knowledgable in this area, but I believe the hand configurations (mudra?) are common in many JMAs, with the immediate source being Esoteric Buddhism, or mikkyo. The Skoss's site, www.koryubooks.com has several online articles that mention this here:

http://koryu.master.com/texis/master...?s=SS&q=mikkyo

Of course, many (if not all) of these traditions certainly can be traced back to influences from China at some point. But from what little I understand, they are certainly very contextual to their use in the various Japanese traditions in which they are found. It would take someone much more experienced than I to deliniate any differences in usage between China and Japan. Maybe Mike can read the source material on the link above, and give some opinions...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:54 AM   #43
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Of course, many (if not all) of these traditions certainly can be traced back to influences from China at some point. But from what little I understand, they are certainly very contextual to their use in the various Japanese traditions in which they are found. It would take someone much more experienced than I to deliniate any differences in usage between China and Japan. Maybe Mike can read the source material on the link above, and give some opinions...
Well, the Shingon (Tantric) Buddhist use of those seals is well-known and there is no coincidental (simultaneous) discovery of the same hand-seals in Japan and China, is there? The point I was making was not just the Chinkon-Shingon relationship, though... the point was that a lot of "this has to be pure Japanese because it's a Shinto tradition mentioned in the Kojiki" simply doesn't hold water. Much of the Kokjiki stuff, like the Chinese writing used to write the Kojiki, was of Chinese origin. Again, let me stress that I don't want to get into one of these Japan-China wars, particularly with people that are not sure what they're fighting for but they're willing to fight anyway ( )... I'm simply responding to assertions that something is "traditional Japanese" when even a casual review would throw heavy doubt onto the idea.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 09-06-2006, 10:26 AM   #44
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I'm not very knowledgable in this area, but I believe the hand configurations (mudra?) are common in many JMAs, with the immediate source being Esoteric Buddhism, or mikkyo. The Skoss's site, www.koryubooks.com has several online articles that mention this here:

http://koryu.master.com/texis/master...?s=SS&q=mikkyo
No offense, but I simply don't have a lot of faith in the "histories" of a lot of the western 'experts'. Generally, they have a limited viewpoint and necessarily only draw from a few select, translated sources. Too often the commentaries by these people represent their collection of a few limited ideas and do not reflect any ability to do their own research into the ancient documents, any knowledge of ancient customs and idioms, etc.

I read one of the Koryu books by a western "expert" with a very skewed and poor understanding of the creative-destructive cycle and a complete miss on the "Bagua" reasoning. Someone suggested it might be the editor of the book, but on reflection I simply don't think so. The real problem is that many of the "Japanese experts" simply don't have the wideranging expertise in the rest of Asian history and background... i.e., they speak from their perception of things, as they learned them during their studies of Japanese martial arts and religions. No offense.... but if I were to write a historical analysis from such a limited viewpoint, I would be the first to make the caveats up front. When someone like William C.C. Hu comes along and actually translates the old texts, giving insight into the idiom and customs (not that I agree with all his conclusions, just to be clear), what he reveals is far more credible than the guesses by non-professional western "historians" who use their dan-grades or expertise in other fields for credentials.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 09-06-2006, 11:46 AM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Hmmm...I don't quite know what to say to any of that. I gave the references as a place to start looking at some of these usages in Japanese traditional arts...not as a Japan vs. China arguement...more as a base to start looking at differences *and* similarities. I think the China connection is obvious...and I have not yet seen David Lowry, or Colin Hyakutake say otherwise. As far as I know, neither of them are "historians"...but that in and of itself doesn't remove their work from consideration. At least not by me.

As for "dan grades"...the arts in question don't give them...so that is neither here nor there.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-06-2006, 12:43 PM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

What I was initially responding to was the Chinkon-Shingon connection, Ron (Shingon being a form of Tantric Buddhish, IIRC). Your pointing to some western-based comments is fine and I also read what they have to say, but I simply find a lot of the "Koryu" historians not all that credible, mainly because they usually only have a limited ability to really comment on history.

What I'm mainly pointing out is that the ideas of something being "Shinto" and "traditional Japanese" (even the "Koryu") can't be totally separated from the Chinese influences. So while some people spend a lot of time pointing out the "differences" in the Japanese and Chinese stuff, I tend to simply look at the similarities and borrowings. The Japanese stuff represents sometimes a terrific repository of the old Chinese stuff that can't be found in any other source. It's actually sort of fascinating.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 09-06-2006, 01:06 PM   #47
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality"

Completely agreed. Maybe when I'm done with the stupid computer stuff I do for a living, I'll go back to school and really delve into some of this. Or maybe, just in my next turn of the wheel...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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