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Old 08-25-2006, 10:37 AM   #51
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Mr. S??? Blinders??? Nah, he strips the blinders of others away!


B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:50 AM   #52
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Ron,

I agree that he sounds more grounded than I initially thought, but I think the principle still holds. If you really want to know whether something works 'for real', you need to get specific and actually test it, or train in a way that comes as close to testing it as you can. Otherwise, I don't see the point it worrying about it.

As far as the adrenaline dump goes, what you are saying sounds a bit ostrich-like for most people. If you are the kind of person that can face being ambushed or some screaming homicidal attacker, etc... without experiencing an adrenaline dump, then there is no need to train with a simulated one. So far as I know, the only way this becomes possible for most people is to experience the situation successfully many times and become desenstitized. There may be people who simply don't get excited no matter what happens, I suppose. For most people though, the adrenaline part is probably the most important defeciency in self-defence training. You can have all the skills in the world, but if you freeze up when you get scared, they are useless. In a way, it seems like it would be the hardest part to effectively simulate... how do you get together with friends and colleagues, set up a training situation you helped design, and get one or more of them to freak you out as badly as you'll likely be when some crackhead is trying to stab you, or whatever?
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:00 AM   #53
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

I agree...it's a pickle. I don't know how it works, but my training seems to produce in me the ability to face severe odds (at times) without the adrenaline dump. As in North Phila., 3 to 4 thugs, and my 90 something great aunt to protect. I did not experience an adrenaline dump, as I would have expected.

On the other hand, from somewhere close to that same time period, I allowed a rude driver to take my mind, and probably came very close to assaulting him when he started with the racial slurs. Because my mind was taken, I did experience an adreniline dump that time. Probably a good thing I restrained myself...I would have been beaten because of my loss of temper, or jailed because of my loss of temper. Neither way seems of much value...especially when there was no real threat.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-25-2006, 12:26 PM   #54
mriehle
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Kokyu Nage doesn't work. Working is kokyu nage.

When I try to do kokyu nage, it always fails on some level. When I let kokyu nage happen it always works. Training is as much about learning to allow your body to use the physical skills you've trained it in as it is about training those physical skills.

IME, when you are trying to use a particular technique you are thinking rather than doing. Movement then comes to late. The thinking should happen during training, but not all the time.

I find that the techniques which work best are the ones that I'm currently spending a lot of time on in my training. I think about the attacks I've actually had to deal with and I generally used what was at the front of my mind at the time.

In jiyu waza or randori my failures are always because I'm trying to do something specific. Knowing this, I still sometimes do so just to try to break patterns, but I know that I will sacrifice effectiveness in doing so - at least in the short term.

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Old 08-25-2006, 01:14 PM   #55
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Ron,

I know what you mean. I have encountered any number of situations when driving or using power tools where it was obvious I was moments from being killed or maimed without drastic action, and it never gets me overexcited. Yet, someone in an angry rage gives me the adrenaline dump, even if it's just a verbal altercation.

I took a Sports Psychology class once that had some interesting things to say that might be applicable to this. They talked a lot about arousal level in relation to performance. It turned out, as I recall, that the appropriate level of excitement varied with individual and type of sport/competition. There were no general rules, but they thought it was possible to determine the right level for a particular athlete to be in when they performed.

The interesting part was that both too much and too little were found to be counter-productive. There was a lot of talk about the implications for how ill-advised it was for coaches to give shouting speeches before games to 'psyche up' athletes, which was in fact overexciting many athletes and lessening their performance. Likewise, there were problems with doing nothing to excite them, using calming meditation techniques, or downplaying the importance of the game to the point where they were under-excited. Depending on the athlete, techniques on one end or the other might be indicated.

I suspect that adrenaline and fighting are similar. The problem with the adrenaline dump is basically massive over-excitement. On the other hand, I'll bet - if there were some way to test it - we'd find that being too calm would also be bad in terms of reducing awareness, response times, etc... I don't see any way you could figure this out and refine it for sure without a lot of real fighting experience, which most of us don't want to seek out for safety and probably moral reasons.
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Old 08-25-2006, 01:24 PM   #56
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Good post, and I agree. I remember when I (attempted) to wrestle competitively in college. I was fine in practice, but as for matches...I stunk. Either I would be over amped, or under amped and daydreaming about other things while trying desprately to stay off my back. I just didn't seem to find the correct competitive mindset.

Similarly, it never brought out that cold determination I have sometimes felt which either enabled me to cause an opponant to back down, or to overwhelm them if things did become physical. I think each individual has to play with different things to find their 'spot'...that place where all things become possible even against great odds.

The mind is a strange thing...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-27-2006, 01:18 PM   #57
Aiki x
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Thanks for the great replies guys.

I know that Kokyu type power can just appears in normal technique and this is when Aikido is at it's best. Maybe this is something that will appear more the more I practice.

I liked the comment that Kokyu nage is home to the best and worst of Aikido. There is an unexplainable magic that appears on occassions and there is uke jumping about to appease toris ego type stuff. I still have reservations about certain techniques and their value. To be specific these would be Morote Dori defended by dropping to the knees and projecting the arms out (my original example) and the strange technique where uke grabs you from behind on the shoulders with two hands and you drop to your knees and he miraculously flies.

I've done Aikido for seven year. I'll do another seven and have a think about it again.

Ron if you ever visit the UK drop by.
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Old 08-27-2006, 10:08 PM   #58
Jess McDonald
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

of course they do
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Old 08-27-2006, 10:53 PM   #59
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Well, only if you have better kokyu than the other guy. Although looking at it from the outside, that wouldn't matter. You could just observe the result and mutter "kokyu nage works". If it's not a kokyu nage, then perhaps it's a specialty technique (though hopefully imbued with kokyu to get the movement to work, or else forced through with normal strength), or else it's perhaps a strength throw (using some normal strength rather than kokyu power, and no particular technical finesse that would qualify the technique with a technique-specific name). All these would work, if the end result is all that is desired. They have different value for training of course. I would add that it might be better to not think so much of kokyu throw as a throw, but more on the fact that only kokyu is being used as opposed to kokyu and some technical arm and leg movements to mechanically increase the inital advantage severalfold. So, a kokyu throw would not necessarily be a throw, it might only result in a lurch or unbalancing, depending on the degree of kokyu development difference between the partners.
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Old 08-28-2006, 02:04 AM   #60
batemanb
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
...in one word -- Real Things.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 08-28-2006, 11:34 AM   #61
jonreading
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

My instructor used to teach kokyu nage using a US dollar bill. The instruction demonstrated the the dollar was both something uke and nage wanted. Committment is a strong requisite of good kokyu nage; when there is no committment fro uke, nage must remind uke of their committment (atemi). George Ledyard Sensei has a great article on atemi where he talks about this specific role of atemi. However, we often do not practice kokyu nage as street technique, so it is difficult to imagine applying a kokyu nage on the street.

In practice, kokyu nage serves to help students understand distance and timing, and the relation of momentu and the human body. I belive kokyu nage has its place in teaching, but ultimately kokyu nage as most aikido people practice would not be effective in fighting. Many components are required to effectively execute kokyu nage: timing, rhythm, distance, committment, and knowledge. Only someone comfortable with a kokyu nage would be able to accomodate the variables of a street fight to execute a kokyu nage.
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Old 08-28-2006, 08:31 PM   #62
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Actually, I think aikido on a solid base of judo is wonderfull. I love to take ukemi from people trained like that. Dan ranked in Judo and Aikido...congrats! Let's train sometime so you can teach me a thing or two...

Best,
Ron
My wife is brown belt in judo. She practices always with long time black belt males, 20-30 KG heavier then her -- unfortunatly there are no other girls in this class.She never does competition, they do competition regulary (for they range of age 30-40 years old)
Of course she can't throw them normally -- they know right from the beginning what she is going to do. Except --- very, very rare case -- kokyu nage! It was the most surprising thing I've ever heard.
So for me it is obvious, one can't do kokyu nage without having powerful kokyu. And she is VERY good, indeed.

She is the only women I've ever met (and I met a lot of 5-6th dans, really) I have problem to do any technique. Very fascinating situation, isn't it?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:27 AM   #63
ian
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I don't know how it works, but my training seems to produce in me the ability to face severe odds (at times) without the adrenaline dump. As in North Phila., 3 to 4 thugs, and my 90 something great aunt to protect. I did not experience an adrenaline dump, as I would have expected.
Yes - I have faced two multiple attacks (in the street) recently, and I would say one of the problems was my adrenaline reaction was actually too low. I think I would have performed better if I had been more stressed. I am guessing that this lack of adrenalin dump is due to long term aikido practise.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:30 AM   #64
ian
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
...when there is no committment from uke, nage must remind uke of their committment (atemi)...
I couldn't agree more. I think we need a good understanding of striking (effectively) to be able to do aikido. If we cannot strike, we cannot do aikido (even though strikes are not always necessary).

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:58 AM   #65
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Hi Mr. S.,

Sometime I need to train with you *and* your wife. She sounds like a keeper...congrats! 2 MA nuts in the same family...please tell me you guys have kids!

Hi Ian,

How did those engagements go, if I might ask? Any lessons learned aside from not being amped as much as you might want?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-29-2006, 11:57 AM   #66
Budd
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Some thoughts on kokyu nage as a technique vs. principle:

I've trained with a few different aikido groups and "kokyu nage" as a technique looked different each time. My least favorite version was little more than a heave and if uke was larger than nage, they pretty much had to "tank" in order to be thrown.

These days, I think that "kokyu nage" is much more to train important "aiki" principles, like the subtle connection and manipulation of points of contact between you and uke -- how correct posture and displacement creates the inevitable "drop" where they have to fall (instead of falling just to be nice). How this works for me (and lord knows I'm still working on it) involves something like an irimi tenkan irimi, where you're constantly connected to uke and they have no choice but to drop. With the best versions of these, it's very difficult to feel nage's center, there's no tension in the limbs, but their structure is very powerful.

Which is funny, because I think the above things need to be in every aikido technique, but with "kokyu nage", I find the technique can't really be forced with muscular tension the way some of the others can (e.g. ikkyo, nikkyo, etc.).
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:36 AM   #67
Nick Simpson
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

I spose it depends on the person doing the kokyunage whether it works or not.

My sensei's kokyunage really does work, I dont always roll or flip from it but I always end up on the floor! Mine on the other hand only works sometimes and I know that my Kokyu power isnt totally developed. Thats why we train, neh?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:36 AM   #68
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

My take on the adrenaline rush is that in the midst of this frenzied set of activities happening in the body, parts of the system come into action which are conducive to greater efficiency, i.e., produce more strength, speed, or other things measurable as athletic results. However, a large part of the rush is a waste of energy, I am assuming lots of things are merely "activated" in the hope by the shocked brain, that some of them will be useful. So one can't continue for long on this rush.

It is much better if one learns what efficient movements should be applied universally, then at least for that physical aspect of a reaction (and which is extremely basic and important and therefore probably a large part of the adrenaline rush activites are trying to deal with this part) the rush simply is not necessary. More energy conserved, and more put into other reactions such as strategic thoughts.

Musing...
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