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Old 08-28-2006, 03:41 PM   #26
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Since Mike is responding himself now, I'll bow out...enjoy!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-28-2006, 03:41 PM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Taiji push hands practice is good in and of itself. I don't know why Mike needs to talk about "supplementing" aikido with it when he doesn't do aikido,himself. I guess it's just because this is an aiki message board and has to argue with someone.
It's a good question. I got to thinking about a number of recent experiences that I've had and (once again... insights are the reason I keep looking and talking) it was a measured response.

My basic point is that the *correct kind* of push-hands is nothing more than an exercise in how to use kokyu power while in constant contact with a partner. Learning how to constantly work with kokyu direction-control is faster with some push-hands or push-hands-related format. In a sense, kokyu-ho is a form of shortened practice of the type found in push-hands, but it has limited directions involved. If we did a form of kokyu-ho, 2-hand wrist grabs, etc., etc., we'd be doing the same basic idea of kokyu/jin manipulation that is found in push-hands. But there can be more variety and fluidity in push-hands, so I simply offered it as a suggestion along the lines that kokyu-ho type practices are necessary, not just the teaching of how-to-form kokyu and ki power. See? Simply being logical.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 03:45 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Oh shucks. Here I am again. Just to give *some* validity to the idea of push hands in aikido, my own 7th dan instructor tried something like that at least once that I remember. I also remember him being annoyed with how stiff we were...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-28-2006, 03:45 PM   #29
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I see all sorts of discussions about supplement Aikido with Systema, Bagua, Judo, Karate, Wing Chun, etc., and my opinion is that most Aikido has better potential than most people realize... it probably doesn't need those extra arts.
From what I see, people aren't saying aikido "needs" these things, but asking if multiple arts are complementary, because they are interested in multiple arts.

For example, I simply don't see high kicks of muay thai in aikido, so if I want to learn muay thai kicks I practice muay thai or a martial art that has similar kicks. This is not saying aikido "needs" muay thai kicks.

Quote:
A whole generation of people have come up not knowing that these things are even real skills, amazingly.
One should publish their insights then so the next generations will be educated.

Quote:
A person starts with a slow, empty-hand form in order to relearn the way he/she moves and to begin to develop kokyu/jin and ki/qi skills.
Taijiquan teachers might say they are practicing to learn the movements of the postures, or to learn the principles.

I doubt any taijiquan teacher would say that they are practicing a Chinese martial art to learn Japanese concepts. Kind of like going to a Japanese restaurant and asking the waiter for shui (Chinese word for water). If they are the same or not (and that is very debatable, even with qi/ki) it seems kind of odd to use that term.

Quote:
(most westerners never develop these skills and wind up "doing push hands" so quickly that they never learn any of the skills... only how to scrabble-compete with normal strength, judo, wrestling, etc.).
Since you can talk about "most" people without evidence, I'll say that most people who talk about different kinds of strength are really just waxing poetic about "normal strength", and what they do might also really just be "normal strength".


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-28-2006, 03:49 PM   #30
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Someone could easily be a horrible fighter, but still able to demonstrate and teach the skills Mike speaks of...
You do know the 'quan' in taijiquan means fist, martial arts, etc. right? If one is practicing a skill in a martial art, but is not able to apply the martial art in a martial way, then we'd have to question just what skill they are really learning, and why it is said, by a couple of people, that these skills are essential to martial arts.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:02 PM   #31
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Tell us what "kokyu" is.
That can be found in any number of great aikido books.

But why would you ask for something you already know is jin?


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:04 PM   #32
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
David, on E-Budo you tried to adopt the position that you know these things too, but use different terms, understandings, etc. It didn't hold water then, it doesn't hold water now. If you want to debate an issue that is as basic as the kokyu/ki things we've been discussing (VERY basic level), you could easily throw in a few comments to show what you understand in the physical world, which in turn would indicate your grasp of the topic. That's the best way to win an argument, as far as I'm concerned.... FIRST show that you know the topic, then argue the points.
Mike, I may have you and Rob John mixed together where that ki thread is concerned. You guys were doing the old snake brothers kung fu hissy poke-poke thing. But I think I recall pretty clearly how it went. It's at least eighteen pages of posts, so it won't be a quick matter to dig out your statements. Keep your shirt on and I will get back with you on that, and also the "Aikido Credentials" thread.

However, as to the basices of "these things," the fundamentals are simple and they are the same throughout all human life, including the martial arts:

1. Relax.
2. Stand upright.
3. Separate yin and yang (recognize the light and the heavy).
4. Move from the waist.

Those are ALL the fundamentals. You can go deeper and get more complex, technical and microscopic, but if you violate any of those, you're wrong. If you leave out any of them, or try to substitute something else for any of them, you are wrong. You can leave out other things, but as long as you have those four points, the worst anyone can say is that you don't have everything you could possibly have.

On the other hand, by going deeper and deeper into the "mysteries" of this kind of thing, you can definitely damage yourself--especially if you are going deeper without good basic knowledge. I work with a Chinese doctor who knows very little concrete about martial arts, but it turns out that he has absorbed a great deal of information purely from cultural immersion for most of his life in China.

He said something that I think really applies to you. He said that by doing qi gong, one can improve his health, circulation, etc. and be better for it. But it is also possible for a person to become sick and evil through these practices. He mentioned, specifically, Li Hongxi, the founder of Falun Da Fa, whom he considers someone who has had a bad effect on himself and on society. He said people can be driven somewhat mad by the esoteric practices without proper foundational discipline. And that's where you come in.

No matter what you have developed in your ability to push people around, there is clearly something missing in your personality or character. You didn't study aikido very long or deeply but you really need to tell everyone else what's wrong with aikido. If you really had confidence in "this stuff" or "these things" you would just hang out your shingle in "This Stuff Do" or "Mike's Superior Fighting Method" or "Mike's Health and Well Being Art".

Look at Moshe Feldenkrais. He was a MASTER of judo, a direct student of Jigoro Kano, and he taught judo for many years in Europe. A lot of my ideas on ki come from his method. But he did name his own, personal method after HIMSELF. It's called The Feldenkrais Method and it seems to do most of what you claim that your teachings will do. He treated David Ben Gurion with it, taught martial artists with it, taught dancers, actors and children with cerebral palsy with it.

Your need to attack anyone and everyone whose lingo does not jibe with yours (even when they are quoting Liang Shou Yu) indicates that you have gone off the path somewhere. Two men walking the earth may walk on different paths. One walks on an established path and the other forges his own path through the wilderness. The one in the wilderness may feel that he has grasped the essence of nature, but he may also end up lost in the wild. No doubt you can kill a bear with your teeth, but your need to attack everyone who won't cow down to your bullying indicates that you may have lost touch with what it is to be civilized.

Regards.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:08 PM   #33
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I don't say this to be rude...I just frankly spend too much time here as it is, and don't have the time to do the chores for others. I'm sure if you clear your mind, and try to investigate rather than score points, you'll find what I mean.
Ron, I've read thousands of Mike's words and have read all about "these things" and "this stuff" without finding anything to relate to what one would actually "do" to develop what Mike talks about. At least Rob John finally posted explicit sets of exercises. I just haven't seen ANYTHING specific from Mike.

And I have not focused on scoring points on him. I've tried every way from Sunday to get on some reasonable, mutually respectful terms with him, but it seems impossible. No disrespect, but if you say he's said some reasonable things, please be specific. I've been unsuccessful at finding any such.

best wishes,

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:10 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Here's what Sigman in that thread said qi/ki is:

-
(1.) focused lines of force of unusual power
(2.) resistance to blows
(3.) resistance to cuts and/or puncturing of the skin
(4.) increased immune-system functions
(5.) detectable (by western instruments) increase in a fascia-related magnetic field.
--


1) what does "unusual" mean?
2) all bodies have built-in resistance to blows to some extent. Why is this qi/ki?
3) I wonder if Sigman attributes the bed of nails trick to qi/ki?
4) Isn't this just attributable to physical and mental exercise?
5) This just assumes what qi/ki is.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:25 PM   #35
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Here's your chance, David. Tell us what "kokyu" is.
See, Mike? How is that an "arguing" or "debating" technique? How many times have I posted the answer to that question? Kokyu is coordination of the mind and body through the breath. Now what does that mean? It means to use the breath to focus the mind to permeate the body so that the mind doesn't go off in one direction while the body does something else and the breath is ragged. Kokyu means to consciously breathe smoothly and bring the body into correct alignment through that mental/physical action. Nothing more. It is not an "issued power" that you can hit someone with.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Show us the cite where I said it was an "issued" power or retract it.
Read back over your own posts. You made the big deal about the e-mail you got from your friend where his teacher did the technique with kokyu and without and your friend said how much more powerful the technique was. Then you inferred from that that the teacher actually hit the student with his kokyu. Who knows where all you've posted that. But we can clear this up right now: DO you believe that kokyu is an issued power?

If so, you prove me correct.

If not, then you should stop posting "kokyu/jin" references because 'jin' is issued power and kokyu is nothing more than internal organization.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Tell us what "kiai" is. Here's your chance to argue your points and quit the personal attack crap. Well, make a case why I'm wrong, instead of just assertion, m'boy. You can't win every argument by simply asserting things, you know.
Kiai is the INTENT to dominate the opponent through aggressive attack, such as a punch or a kick, or simply the willingness to pull the trigger on a gun pointed at the other person. That's ALL it is. Kiai is the INTENT to knock the other person down and/or kill him. The shout is a "sign"of kiai, just as the report of a pistol is a "sign" that the firearm has been fired. Kiai is NOT some force that is generated, as you said, by pressures in the abdomen. It is an ATTITUDE of the mind and spirit.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Look at my posts today and on other days, David... I've mentioned other people that can do these things. My point is that YOU can't... prove me wrong with a sterling exposition, rather than just attacking personally.
Mike, you don't know what I can do. When I was uchi deshi in Japan, Mochizuki Sensei had me teach special seminars for visiting black belts with experience in various martial arts. Sometimes he wasn't even in the room. Once, in particular, I taught some fine points to three Germans who were all bigger than I. I didn't go looking for someone else to be there with me or to help me in case I couldn't handle it. These guys came halfway around the world to train with the meijin in aikido and he turned them over to me and I taught them. As I was conducting a lesson on aikido, I hit one of the guys with a rubber sword. He would have been killed by a real sword, but because the rubber sword only stung, he came on through and punched me in the ribs. What shocked me most is that it had no effect on me.

So here YOU are on the internet telling people you've never met what THEY can't do. It's doesn't make any sense. You do exactly what you criticize. At least when I comment on aikido, I have thirty years and more experience as a basis. I didn't spend time training with people who weren't good enough to teach me. I always went to the next level and finally Mochizuki Sensei said to me "You pretty well understand aikido."

So satisfy yourself, Mike. It seems you have a mind like a steel trap. But it's closed and, apparently, rusted shut.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:31 PM   #36
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Here's what Sigman in that thread said qi/ki is:

-
(1.) focused lines of force of unusual power
(2.) resistance to blows
(3.) resistance to cuts and/or puncturing of the skin
(4.) increased immune-system functions
(5.) detectable (by western instruments) increase in a fascia-related magnetic field.
--


1) what does "unusual" mean?
2) all bodies have built-in resistance to blows to some extent. Why is this qi/ki?
3) I wonder if Sigman attributes the bed of nails trick to qi/ki?
4) Isn't this just attributable to physical and mental exercise?
5) This just assumes what qi/ki is.


Justin
1) Feel it yourself, we've already given you people that can dishout this kind of skill

2) Stand feet shoulderwidth apart knees straight, have someone (preferably a boxer with a good right hook) smack you in the chest.
If you don't have this skill you'll be knocked back, doubly so if you're tense. If you have structure backed by kokyu/ki/qi/jin skills the strike will literally rebound back into said person's shoulder, wihtout conscious effort on your part. Still hurts like a bitch on the surface, but it won't rattle your core/spine causing you to compromise your balance.
*edit I should probably mention I've seen Ark kicked full power with lows and mid-highs by several Muay thai guys ranging from 130lb - 190lb, and all of them said that it felt like they were kicking "hard rubber". Basically they got no feedback and it felt like their strength was sapped from them on impact

3) I doubt it, stop making stupid innuendos

4) Well that goes without saying for anything we do Sparky

5) Simple speculation that's neither here nor there and not really worth debating here so don't drag it into the forum for more attention grabbing on your part.

Last edited by Upyu : 08-28-2006 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:41 PM   #37
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Kokyu is coordination of the mind and body through the breath. Now what does that mean? It means to use the breath to focus the mind to permeate the body so that the mind doesn't go off in one direction while the body does something else and the breath is ragged. Kokyu means to consciously breathe smoothly and bring the body into correct alignment through that mental/physical action. Nothing more. It is not an "issued power" that you can hit someone with.
Gernot studies with Abe sensei and could probably give a more "pure" japanese view on the issue. Gernot care to comment?
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:46 PM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Kokyu means to consciously breathe smoothly and bring the body into correct alignment through that mental/physical action. Nothing more. It is not an "issued power" that you can hit someone with.
Really? So all those people that Ushiro Sensei pushed (he could have punched) in the throat and other places with his noticeably powerful and different kokyu power.... those people all suffered delusions? Let's face it, David... you don't know what you're talking about. I've mentioned before why the "breath" part has a lot to do with why the force is called "kokyu", but that doesn't get you off the hook.
Quote:
Read back over your own posts. You made the big deal about the e-mail you got from your friend where his teacher did the technique with kokyu and without and your friend said how much more powerful the technique was. Then you inferred from that that the teacher actually hit the student with his kokyu. Who knows where all you've posted that. But we can clear this up right now: DO you believe that kokyu is an issued power?
Kokyu power is, as I have said in the past, "essentially jin". You can use it to hit with, to exert a force in a throw, etc.
Quote:
If not, then you should stop posting "kokyu/jin" references because 'jin' is issued power and kokyu is nothing more than internal organization.
David, you're quite simply wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
Quote:
Kiai is the INTENT to dominate the opponent through aggressive attack, such as a punch or a kick, or simply the willingness to pull the trigger on a gun pointed at the other person. That's ALL it is. Kiai is the INTENT to knock the other person down and/or kill him. The shout is a "sign"of kiai, just as the report of a pistol is a "sign" that the firearm has been fired. Kiai is NOT some force that is generated, as you said, by pressures in the abdomen. It is an ATTITUDE of the mind and spirit.
Sigh. I'll do a separate post on these things later, when I have a few minutes.
Quote:
Mike, you don't know what I can do. [[snip another gratuitous personal anecdote]]
No, I don't know what you can do, David. However, I can see what you write. If you knew certain things and you're not crazy, then what you write would be different. As it is, you're wrong on some pretty basic stuff, which indicates to me a high, high probability of certain things that you can't do. If you can't do those things, then your Aikido is incomplete. Would you be the first person I've met who has spent some time under "good teachers" and who weren't shown a lot of things? No. The best way to have gotten me to change my mind was to say something close to the mark where I at least questioned myself that maybe it was some interpolatable version of the same thing. No. I'll place my bet pretty comfortably that I have a pretty good idea what you know and don't know.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:06 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If you can't do those things, then your Aikido is incomplete.
Mike,
Is anyone's aikido ever "complete?"
I know mine isn't, and I am pretty sure that it never will be.
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:10 PM   #40
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
Mike,
Is anyone's aikido ever "complete?"
I know mine isn't, and I am pretty sure that it never will be.
Depends on what you mean by "complete". For instance an author who doesn't know how to do footnotes for his book is a writer whose skills are not "complete", in one sense. An author who doesn't know the complete alphabet isn't "complete" either, but in a more dire and necessary sense. I'm talking about that second kind of "complete".

FWIW

Mike
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:34 PM   #41
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Gernot studies with Abe sensei and could probably give a more "pure" japanese view on the issue.
Abe sensei doesn't use the word kokyu at all IIRC. At least not in a long time. He uses the word ki, that his arm becomes a arm (made) of ki, and that you fill your lower abdomen with breath and stop it, in order to facilitate this. He also does the same thing without the breath, or with completely filled lungs, saying there are different emphases (like trained muscles in the empty case). He tends to go around showing, correcting stance, arm positions, elbows, grip, and let people feel his movement, and also with himself as uke. I have a lot of questions for Abe sensei, hopefully he'll give answers that I can remember coherently!
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:47 PM   #42
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "complete". For instance an author who doesn't know how to do footnotes for his book is a writer whose skills are not "complete", in one sense. An author who doesn't know the complete alphabet isn't "complete" either, but in a more dire and necessary sense. I'm talking about that second kind of "complete".

FWIW

Mike
Do you mean perhaps, like the difference in skills between someone who has just begun to study aikido (first kind of complete)and one who has studied for say, ten or twenty years (second kind of complete)?
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:49 PM   #43
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

In a pathetic attempt to pull this thread back on topic, perhaps it would be helpful if we could discuss what constitutes "correct push hands" practice....

Ignatius
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:49 PM   #44
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

((Pauses here to allow some of Peanut Gallery to complain or ask insulting questions about something rather than contribute to the thread))

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
Abe sensei doesn't use the word kokyu at all IIRC. At least not in a long time. He uses the word ki, that his arm becomes a arm (made) of ki, and that you fill your lower abdomen with breath and stop it, in order to facilitate this. He also does the same thing without the breath, or with completely filled lungs, saying there are different emphases (like trained muscles in the empty case). He tends to go around showing, correcting stance, arm positions, elbows, grip, and let people feel his movement, and also with himself as uke. I have a lot of questions for Abe sensei, hopefully he'll give answers that I can remember coherently!
Well, that's actual "ki" he's talking about. What Tohei shows where someone tries to push against him, etc., is actually kokyu/jin. It's very hard to separate these completely, as I've said before, and also, as I've said before, I tend to separate them for conversational clarity. The force paths are the jin. All the body skills related to "pressure", breathing, stretching, etc., are the ki. If the force paths are bound up in the manifestation of the ki, then it's usually just called "ki". Just to keep it all simple, a lot of Asians will just say "ki" and be done with it. I tend to go by what is being exhibited. If there are force paths being exhibited, I say "jin". If they are showing a pressurized/protected arm, then I say "ki". But it admittedly gets hard to distinguish sometimes because these things are so inextricably intertwined.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:58 PM   #45
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
In a pathetic attempt to pull this thread back on topic, perhaps it would be helpful if we could discuss what constitutes "correct push hands" practice....
Well, I tried to say more or less what that was in post #1, Ignatius. What's not clear?

Let me give a simple example of a "for instance" of what I see wrong. If I stand in front of almost all Aikidoists (in migi ai-hanmi) and push them lightly on the chest with my fingertips, they will resist or use muscle in some part of their body, rather than a simple jin/kokyu path to ground the force. If I start to push them back and slightly to their right (toward the "back gate" in their stance), they'll try to compensate by sneakily moving their pelvis to the left... that's balance adjustment, not kokyu, and it destroys their ability to manifest kokyu. They should be able to mentally generate a kokyu path that combines, negates, or puts me off-balance. I.e, "aiki". So what I was saying was that insofar as "correct push hands" goes, I mean more generally that I'm talking about a more sophisticated variation of kokyu-ho dosa is needed. Does that make more sense?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:12 PM   #46
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Really? So all those people that Ushiro Sensei pushed (he could have punched) in the throat and other places with his noticeably powerful and different kokyu power.... those people all suffered delusions? Let's face it, David... you don't know what you're talking about.
Baloney, Mike. You don't know what he was talking about. Sure, he pushed them, and sure, he had kokyu. But he could have stood there with kokyu or he could have kicked them or whatever. No matter how you pat yourself on the back, you are misinterpreting what he said. He could have said, "Look what happens when I stand in good posture and hit them" and you would interpret it as "good posture" being some kind of power that he issued when he hit them. So yes, he hit them while he had kokyu, but no kokyu came out of him and hit them. The kokyu remained with him. It's nothing more than a high degree of organization of the body--NOT an issued force as you STILL seem to be trying to prove.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I've mentioned before why the "breath" part has a lot to do with why the force is called "kokyu"
and you have the NERVE to demand that I tell you where you have defined kokyu as an issued force. KOKYU is NOT a FORCE. It is a high degree of organization of the mind and body through the medium of the breath.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
but that doesn't get you off the hook.
I wasn't on a hook, Mike. You just showed again how you contradict yourself. Kokyu is NOT a force.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Kokyu power is, as I have said in the past, "essentially jin".
Where did you say that? You just said in a previous post that you never said it was an issued force. Jin IS an issued force. Kokyu is NOT a FORCE of any kind.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No, I don't know what you can do, David. However, I can see what you write. If you knew certain things and you're not crazy, then what you write would be different.
Yes, and if you weren't crazy, then what you write would not continually contradict itself, make the same claims, claim you didn't make the claim, then make the claim again right after challenging people to prove where you made the claim. Read what you write, Mike. It's like an idiot savante without the savante.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
As it is, you're wrong on some pretty basic stuff, which indicates to me a high, high probability of certain things that you can't do.
And what you can't do, apparently, is point out what "basic stuff" I'm wrong about. You can only say I'm wrong, then repeat the same vague references to "pretty basic stuff."

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If you can't do those things, then your Aikido is incomplete. Would you be the first person I've met who has spent some time under "good teachers" and who weren't shown a lot of things?No.
And you wouldn't be the first I've met who has spent no time under any really major teachers, never got a black belt and never traveled to Japan to get to the real depth, but thought he knew it all. I realize quite well how incomplete my aikido is, but you have never even seen how deep aikido can go, and at what a shallow level your training under incomplete teachers (whose teachings weren't good enough for you) has left you to make ego claims about everyone but yourself.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The best way to have gotten me to change my mind was to say something close to the mark where I at least questioned myself that maybe it was some interpolatable version of the same thing. No. I'll place my bet pretty comfortably that I have a pretty good idea what you know and don't know.
Which really impresses the doodly squat out of me, I'll tell you what. Mike, you may be a strong man, but you don't know jack about aikido. You don't know what kokyu is and you don't know what kiai is, so how could you understand the ura of kiai?

I know that you are comfy in your superior knowledge and that Moses and all the prophets would never tell you anything to make you question yourself.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-28-2006, 06:14 PM   #47
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Me:
Kiai is the INTENT to dominate the opponent through aggressive attack, such as a punch or a kick, or simply the willingness to pull the trigger on a gun pointed at the other person. That's ALL it is. Kiai is the INTENT to knock the other person down and/or kill him. The shout is a "sign"of kiai, just as the report of a pistol is a "sign" that the firearm has been fired. Kiai is NOT some force that is generated, as you said, by pressures in the abdomen. It is an ATTITUDE of the mind and spirit.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Sigh. I'll do a separate post on these things later, when I have a few minutes.
Yeah, be sure to dump the coffee grounds and old newspapers in there with it. It's all good, coming from you.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-28-2006, 06:18 PM   #48
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
Abe sensei doesn't use the word kokyu at all IIRC. At least not in a long time.
Mochizuki Sensei never talked about kokyu and very seldom about ki. If he talked about ki, it was only in terms of the attacker's attitude.

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
He uses the word ki, that his arm becomes a arm (made) of ki, and that you fill your lower abdomen with breath and stop it, in order to facilitate this. He also does the same thing without the breath, or with completely filled lungs, saying there are different emphases (like trained muscles in the empty case). He tends to go around showing, correcting stance, arm positions, elbows, grip, and let people feel his movement, and also with himself as uke. I have a lot of questions for Abe sensei, hopefully he'll give answers that I can remember coherently!
Yes. Sounds right. Especially in serving as uke, himself. That's something the lesser guys will not do.

Thanks for the comments.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-28-2006, 06:19 PM   #49
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
Mike,
Is anyone's aikido ever "complete?"
Mike's is. And it's plated with chrome. No, silver. Yeah, that's it. Solid silver...

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-28-2006, 06:23 PM   #50
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
All the body skills related to "pressure", breathing, stretching, etc., are the ki.
Proud ignorance, Mike. Liang Shou Yu would not agree.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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