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Old 06-12-2006, 12:25 PM   #1
Mato-san
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Freaky! Strike Nikkyo

Ok, I am not an expert in terminology, but a hands on guy.
We have a shomen strike (power or no power) to the skull.
We enter and take yurami (josh help me) on the finger tips and proceed in tenkan motion to a vunrable position.

NOW from here is it best to position the nikkyo before stomping or sliding (yoshinkan) or (skipping in, like in ki aikido) or do we wait till we go to the ground to position nikkyo?(not apply nikkyo but position)??????????????

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 06-12-2006, 03:17 PM   #2
Eric Webber
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

I vote for slapping (okay,okay positioning) the nikkyo on ASAP if it's effective. There's little argument with an effective nikkyo, you want it handy as soon as possible, even if it means before you have uke all the way on the ground. Just my two cents.....
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Old 06-12-2006, 03:25 PM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

I have to say I'm not sure what your description refers to. Yoshinkan doesn't do a lot of stomping.

In general, outside of a dojo I would almost never do nikkajo right off the bat. I'd do Ikkajo first, then while uke is bent over and off balance, move to nikkajo (you mentioned doing it from a shomen strike). Off of a grab I might go straight to nikkajo, especially if it is a shoulder grab...but usually only after hitting the guy in the nose first.

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-12-2006, 04:19 PM   #4
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Take uke's balance. Name the techniques later over beer.

dave
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Old 06-12-2006, 04:26 PM   #5
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

nice Dave!

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-12-2006, 05:07 PM   #6
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
Ok, I am not an expert in terminology, but a hands on guy.
We have a shomen strike (power or no power) to the skull.
We enter and take yurami (josh help me) on the finger tips and proceed in tenkan motion to a vunrable position.

NOW from here is it best to position the nikkyo before stomping or sliding (yoshinkan) or (skipping in, like in ki aikido) or do we wait till we go to the ground to position nikkyo?(not apply nikkyo but position)??????????????
My stupid advice: do all versions, you can imagine until they work fine. Then find out in which position which one seems to be the best.

We do not do an extra nikyo in omote form - it is rather like ikkyo, but you are holding the hand the other way round. And the final pin is different. In ura form we usually start like ikkyo ura (tenkan) - then again the different hand grip. But in kihon waza we let uke try to get up again, do the nikkyo lock and again a tenkan to tak him down finally. If the first tenkan has enough kuzushi to bring uke to the ground and he is not willing or able to get up again, we just do the pin. But that is only strict kihon waza. Whenever conditions are different, the technique looks different.

Cheers

Dirk
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:02 PM   #7
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
..but usually only after hitting the guy in the nose first.

Best,
Ron
That is what I call real Budo spirit!!! All this aiki fruity tenkanig we all say loudly NO, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

90% atemi + 10% irimi = aikido

Quote:
But in kihon waza we let uke try to get up again
That is very big mistake. There is NOTHING in the whole world that will guaranty you such uke's behavior. This is completely artificial comportment. Beginner will collapse down. Well trained attacker will enter to the legs to do take down.
You guys you reinforce some strange illusions, sorry to be honest, Dirk.

Nagababa

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Old 06-13-2006, 03:02 AM   #8
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
That is very big mistake. There is NOTHING in the whole world that will guaranty you such uke's behavior. This is completely artificial comportment. Beginner will collapse down. Well trained attacker will enter to the legs to do take down.
You guys you reinforce some strange illusions, sorry to be honest, Dirk.
In all instances, you should work on compromising uke's balance first. The techniques come after. Szczepan is right in that a lot of beginners will collapse under a good nikkyo, and well trained attackers may go for the legs, but, when we loose our balance, our natural reaction is to try and recover it. If you don't apply the nikkyo at the right point, or the nikkyo is not on, or you deliberately haven't applied it in order to let uke think he can get up , uke may well try and stand up. One should practice for all situations, with kuzushi being the primary goal.

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 06-13-2006, 03:59 AM   #9
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
That is very big mistake. There is NOTHING in the whole world that will guaranty you such uke's behavior. This is completely artificial comportment. Beginner will collapse down. Well trained attacker will enter to the legs to do take down.
You guys you reinforce some strange illusions, sorry to be honest, Dirk.
There is nothing to be sorry, Szczepan. I love your comments for being honest and competent, even if i do not agree with all of them.

Maybe I have not gone far enough in the DO to understand you totally, or my DO just is just a bit different from yours.

Just the explanation for our kihon-waza as far as I understood:
Kihon-waza is not realistic at all. It is just a sample of what-if examples to create a wide repertoire of techniques. So many parts are somehow artificial as karate-kata for example.

So I see this as the idea of "What if uke regains balance and continues to attack."
And if I recall the variations, we train, "let uke get up again", might be mistaken in order not to write a complete essay.

Nevertheless, the idea is to try many variations and find out, which one could be used in which situation. Some will be dropped, as they do not fit to my size or personality, come back later - or not. And then, in any situation, there should be something (instantaneously).

Is there anything wrong with this attitude?

Dirk

Disclaimer:
I apologise to everyone for giving bad explanations for probably bad techniques. YOU SHOULD NEVER TRY TO LEARN TECHNIQUES BY THE WEB. It is difficult enough, to learn them on the mat.
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:25 AM   #10
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
There is nothing to be sorry, Szczepan. I love your comments for being honest and competent, even if i do not agree with all of them.

Maybe I have not gone far enough in the DO to understand you totally, or my DO just is just a bit different from yours.

Just the explanation for our kihon-waza as far as I understood:
Kihon-waza is not realistic at all. It is just a sample of what-if examples to create a wide repertoire of techniques. So many parts are somehow artificial as karate-kata for example.

So I see this as the idea of "What if uke regains balance and continues to attack."
And if I recall the variations, we train, "let uke get up again", might be mistaken in order not to write a complete essay.

Nevertheless, the idea is to try many variations and find out, which one could be used in which situation. Some will be dropped, as they do not fit to my size or personality, come back later - or not. And then, in any situation, there should be something (instantaneously).

Is there anything wrong with this attitude?

Dirk

Disclaimer:
I apologise to everyone for giving bad explanations for probably bad techniques. YOU SHOULD NEVER TRY TO LEARN TECHNIQUES BY THE WEB. It is difficult enough, to learn them on the mat.
So I'll tell you my opinion. First, kihon is not a heap with 'what-if' techniques. It is logically connected chain of movement to learn principles. If you ever in aikido look for 'what-if' techniques, IMO you are completely lost the WAY.

Second, if you let uke stand up, only aikido uke will stand up and wait for your next technique. Normal person will try do run out -> it means increase distance between you and him. So you will have to run after him. No connection at all.

Trained person will try to decrease distance to make counter and enter directly to your center to unbalance you. You will be in defensive and will have to work hard again to regain control. No connection at all.

In both cases, the only way to effective control is to maintain this control all the way, not give a slide chance to recovery.
It is matter of maintaining 'connection' from you center to uke's center using nikkyo lock. This way you can keep him all way off balance. Once you release this controlling connection, you create an opening, you own weakness. .

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:22 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

I liked your further explanation Dirk, and I liked Mr. S's even better.

There are some Yoshinkan waza where uke is trying to escape after being brought to one knee during nikkajo, and shite follows up with large, quick steps to complete control and pin. I would not say the connection to uke is lost in that situation; simply that uke is handling the connection in a wise way in that instance, and is escaping. This is a kihon waza.

There are others where we allow uke to come up after a nikkajo to throw. Some involve uke blocking with his head, so the power can't go through, and lead to a reversal.

I'm not a big proponant in viewing kihon waza as situational training either. But to uncover some principles, you have to look at the possibility of uke being able to counter, move, reverse, escape. All of it good training....

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-13-2006, 09:31 AM   #12
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
So I'll tell you my opinion. First, kihon is not a heap with 'what-if' techniques. It is logically connected chain of movement to learn principles. If you ever in aikido look for 'what-if' techniques, IMO you are completely lost the WAY.

Second, if you let uke stand up, only aikido uke will stand up and wait for your next technique. Normal person will try do run out -> it means increase distance between you and him. So you will have to run after him. No connection at all.

Trained person will try to decrease distance to make counter and enter directly to your center to unbalance you. You will be in defensive and will have to work hard again to regain control. No connection at all.

In both cases, the only way to effective control is to maintain this control all the way, not give a slide chance to recovery.
It is matter of maintaining 'connection' from you center to uke's center using nikkyo lock. This way you can keep him all way off balance. Once you release this controlling connection, you create an opening, you own weakness. .
Damn, ... I shouldn't have asked
Thank you for correction, sensei. I'll have to rethink and hopefully i am able to change accordingly.

Cheers Dirk

BTW Szczepan, obviously you didn't manage to come to Germany again this spring - I understand, Japan was more interesting. Do you already have a schedule for the next trip to Walldorf - with a short stop in Hoechst?
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:08 PM   #13
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Hi Ron,
I think I have a bit different understanding of kihon techniques. I don't think it is a place for henka waza (sequential chaining of techniques) -- if that what you meant in your replay. Form me henka waza is higher level and is teach separately. For this reason I see in kihon only 'one way' for uke => down, to unifie with tatami AFAP.
Surly, training of vertical dimension (up-down-up-down…etc) is important and have his place in aikido methodology, but kihon must be simple to be rich LOL.

Dirk,
Please don't call me sensei. After last weekend seminar with Sugano sensei I know I'm surly quite beginner -- that is my real feeling.
Concerning my travel to Walldorf, no news for the moment. May be september/october? But I bet my manager will tell me a date last moment as usual…………travel to Japan was big surprise to me, it was my first real vacation last five years.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:23 PM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Hi Szczepan,

I think we are agreed. The one difference is in the escape from nikkajo where uke goes to one knee, then turns to escape. That is definately in yoshinkan kihon. Good conversation,

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-13-2006, 03:44 PM   #15
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Yea good conversation. I with you Ron on your observations in general.

I am playing with some nikkyo principle based moves in grappling. All of them require that you have real good control over your uke's center and you must be real subtle about what you are doing with the setup and all. There is a real art and level of sophistication in using this technique.

I find it is good technique for understanding principle, not so good in real life as we practice it in aikido.... at least not for me yet.
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Old 06-14-2006, 03:15 AM   #16
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Take uke's balance. Name the techniques later over beer.dave
David, good one mate. I like this response... just like irimi, cut straight in and to the point.

Hey, Ron (fellow Yoshinkaner), in my dojo we have waza, where we do nikkajo and then kaeshi to ude garami. This waza assumes you try to do nikajo but uke resist so we transition to something else. Good stuff.

Boon.

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Old 06-14-2006, 09:08 AM   #17
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Hi Xu,

We also transition to kote gaishi nage. Just enter under the arm, turn and pivot for the throw or pin. One knee down is nice....

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-15-2006, 02:40 AM   #18
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Xu,
We also transition to kote gaishi nage. Just enter under the arm, turn and pivot for the throw or pin. One knee down is nice....
Best,
Ron
I know these may work in waza/kata, but I have never successfully do them (these cumbersome transition) in randori situation. In a stressful situation, I tend to fumble. Good to know, but heck....

Thank god for SHOMEN-ATE (TM); your one stop solution to 90% of your aikido problems.

Boon.

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Old 06-15-2006, 08:16 AM   #19
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Yeah, randori is always tough. The trick seems to be to take the movement with the hands, and reduce it as much as possible. For instance, it is not neccessary to grab the wrist to do kotegaishinage

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-15-2006, 12:18 PM   #20
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Dirk,
Please don't call me sensei. After last weekend seminar with Sugano sensei I know I'm surly quite beginner -- that is my real feeling.
Maybe the usage of sensei is different. When someone teaches me and I accept his teaching, I call him sensei in this moment.

It doesn't matter how many better teachers are there in the world and how much better they are.

I know, you are very good and I usually do not compare different sensei. For those of us, who do not accept comparative competition in Aikido, why should we do so in teaching Aikido?

The way, you were correcting me, was rather teaching than discussing. And I accepted being taught. So to me the right answer would be "hai, sensei".

OK, on the web, there is room for some more words, which I rarely do on the mat.

But usually I call you Szczepan (pronunciation like "shteppan"?) or nagababa. Is that OK for you?

Back to topic. I did not realise, that my description did read like "losing connection". I know I often lose connection and I thought, it was lack of perception or lack of "hara", probably both.


All the best


Dirk
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Old 08-22-2006, 09:27 AM   #21
Mato-san
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Re: Strike Nikkyo

Back to the topic....do you guys take the nikkyo lock at the wrist in your hand and kill the thumb, (take the lock on the wrist) before you hit the tatami and control the shoulder or do you wait for it.....(balance is already took)????

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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