Different Schools, One Aikido

Originally posted by PeterR Edward: We all have our biases based on our experiences and inclinations and in a discussion presenting our arguments as best we can is part of the process. Just as I have done, please correct me where I have made an incorrect statement or strayed too far.

Peter,

We both agree that there is no absolute truth in this matter, and agreeing to disagree is the most civilized way to deal with it. I know we will never change our positions regarding this touchy subject, and I don't expect any one to do.

I would like you to know that I never meant any disrespect to Pr. Tomiki in the concerned post and I apologize if I gave this impression inadvertly. As for the Aiki-Judo name, a visiting Japanese instructor once told me this. I myself have never trained with Shodokan, but have read several books about it. It is a fact that the word Judo is repeated so many times. Perhaps this is due to Pr. Tomiki Judo background, to his will along with Dr. Kano's philosophy, to preserve Japanese martial arts by converting them into sports, and replacing budo value with the more international value which is sportsmanship. Pr. Tomiki himself said that he wanted in his system to use Aikido techniques but following the judo principles.

I don't agree with this philosophy but this is something we will surely disagree on.

However, I am sure that were Dr. Kano alive now, he would have been disappointed with what Judo has become, which is very different from the Judo Dr. Kano practiced and intended to spread, at least in the majority of the dojos in the world with rare exceptions.

Finally, I am sure you were very well received at Aikikai dojos, the same way I was well received at dojos of other styles where I have practiced. You would be very welcome to practice with us if you ever come to Bangkok, and I myself will try to practice at a Shodokan dojo at the first opportunity.

Cheers,
Edward

Originally posted by Edward I didn't say that it's necessary. I just feel that merger sounds better that split and conveys a more positive impression. Splits are associated with fighting or problems, mergers with agreement and understanding. Cheers, Edward

I think I am starting to understand you. I would never have associated a negative side to split, to me it is a sign of growth and change, as in leaving home once you are grown. The only time a split means trouble (to me) is when one side refuses to let the other leave, fearing loss of control.

Originally posted by ca I think I am starting to understand you. I would never have associated a negative side to split, to me it is a sign of growth and change, as in leaving home once you are grown. The only time a split means trouble (to me) is when one side refuses to let the other leave, fearing loss of control.

You know, Colleen, it's a cultural thing. We Orientals leave the parental home very reluctantly, and even after marriage, prefer to live close to our parents in case the parental home is not big enough to accomodate the whole family.

Originally posted by Edward Perhaps the fact that Pr. Tomiki delayed public competition untill the death of Osensei played a big part in the saveguarding of the relationship.

In 1970 there was the first The First All Japan Students Aikido Tournament however in the Kanto area there were interuniversity (public) competitions long before that.

The first introduction of competitive Aikido to the Kansai area universities occured in 1969 at the invitation of the Aikikai Kansai Hombu Shihan Hirokazu Kobayashi although a dojo was established in Osaka since 1963.

It was with the inclusion of both Kansai and Kanto areas that allowed the All Japan designation - this was an important moment in that Shodokan Aikido became a truely national entity.

Its possible the death of Ueshiba M. had something to do with the timing, but I really don't think so.

Originally posted by deepsoup Stanley Pranin wrote an editorial in the Aikido Journal in 1994, in which he mentions forms of competition in various different styles including Yoshinkan. So it seems likely that some element of competition was already in place at the Yoshinkan by 1994, which was the year that Gozo Shioda died (on July 17th). Sean x

Excellent article!

According to Stanley Pranin, Yoshinkan "competition" is similar in every respect to that of Ki Society. If that is true, it is a Kata competition and does not involve confrontation of 2 players.

I was very surprised when Peter R. mentioned competition at Yoshinkan, because I know that Shioda Sensei was categorically against it, as he mentions it in several publications.

I would be grateful if Peter or others would clarify this point. Is there any competition element that has been recently introduced other than the one mentioned by Stanley Pranin?

Cheers,
Edward

Every Tomiki Competition contains Enbu events - always have. Both Ki society and Yoshinkan introduced Enbu events but not the one on one matches. The same article mentions another style of Aikido which includes these one on one matches but outside the article I know nothing about this group.

All the arguments against competition I have heard can make no distinction between Enbu and shiai. Pair against pair is no different than one against one. There is only one argument for shiai that does not apply to Enbu and that is testing your technique against a well trained opponent - that of course is the purpose of shiai.

Generally those who take part in shiai are very aware of their limitations.

Anyhow - the only reason I go on here was the "true student" statement. I recommend the truely exellent thread where Peter G. contributed greatly. From that I take it that Ueshiba M. never condemed shiai but kyou-sou. Kyou-sou can be found in shiai, in embu, in any and every dojo (including Edward's I am sure) and in every endeavor where more than one person is involved. It seems to be at work here. The trick is to overcome it.

Home > AikiWeb Forums > AikiWeb: Language > "Competition"

Originally posted by PeterR There is only one argument for shiai that does not apply to Enbu and that is testing your technique against a well trained opponent - that of course is the purpose of shiai. Generally those who take part in shiai are very aware of their limitations.

Their limitations in shiai, that is. I believe shiai follows certain rules, of which I don't know much honestly. But just by the existence of rules, you are creating a controlled environment which is different from a real life or death situation where there are no rules.

In my personal opinion, there is no relationship between the two. Being the champion of the world in boxing does not necessarily mean that you will do well when attacked with a knife or kicked in the groin. In the countrary, it might give you a false self-confidence which could endanger your life.

I myself prefer to think that aikido does not work against serious attacks. I believe this is good to avoid this self-confidence and get involved in unnecessary harm situations.

Sorry that I went far from the subject.

Cheers,
Edward

True if shiai is all you train for - you will limit your Aikido. The bulk of Shodokan training is of course not geared towards shiai and in fact looks similar to many other Aikido dojos.

However, one of the central tenents of Tomiki's theories is that the lessons learnt in shiai are applicable to all your Aikido. You find out very quickly what techniqes work for you, how to improve the basic principles of taisabaki, kuzushi and ma ai, not to mention that most ellusive of all timing. Since your opponent can counter and resist, all sorts of possiblities are open.

I myself prefer to think that aikido does not work against serious attacks.

Perhaps this is where we truely differ. Whether Aikido will work or not is entirely dependent on the training methods. I do know that within the Shodokan system the ability to apply techniques under pressure is learnt well in the crucible of shiai.

I believe this is good to avoid this self-confidence and get involved in unnecessary harm situations.

No argument there. I have seen levels of untested self confidence in dojos that would make you cringe. Those who do shiai are well aware of the difference between the mat and the street.

By the way I would put good money on a competitive boxer surviving a street confrontation. These guys are tough, know how to give and take serious damage, and have enough grey cells left to toss any rules of fair play out the window.

Originally posted by Edward Their limitations in shiai, that is. I believe shiai follows certain rules, of which I don't know much honestly. But just by the existence of rules, you are creating a controlled environment which is different from a real life or death situation where there are no rules.

Shiai is simply a training tool, it gives us a means to test our abilities and often provides a good incentive to train harder.
Of course there are rules, it would be a poor tool for training if you couldn't participate without getting injured.

As Peter says, those of us who participate do indeed tend to know our limitations. There are a lot of aikidoka whose experience of randori consists of throwing multiple attackers around with ease. Those of us who participate in shiai and 'competitive' randori also have a lot of experience of a single attacker who we find extremely difficult to throw. It can be very sobering for the over-confident!

(Tanto-randori also teaches a certain respect for an attacker armed with a knife, its very rare to emerge from a tanto-randori contest without having been fatally stabbed at least once!)

If your point is that shiai doesn't accurately simulate actual 'life or death' conflict, then of course you are correct, it doesn't. As Mr Pranin points out, no form of martial arts competition does that. Nor does any form of dojo training, for that matter, competitive or otherwise.

Apart from anything else, martial arts contests of all kinds are usually fair, and I forget who said it, but "In the real world, a fair fight is the result of bad planning."

Sean
x

Originally posted by PeterR True if shiai is all you train for - you will limit your Aikido. The bulk of Shodokan training is of course not geared towards shiai and in fact looks similar to many other Aikido dojos. However, one of the central tenents of Tomiki's theories is that the lessons learnt in shiai are applicable to all your Aikido. You find out very quickly what techniqes work for you, how to improve the basic principles of taisabaki, kuzushi and ma ai, not to mention that most ellusive of all timing. Since your opponent can counter and resist, all sorts of possiblities are open. I myself prefer to think that aikido does not work against serious attacks. Perhaps this is where we truely differ. Whether Aikido will work or not is entirely dependent on the training methods. I do know that within the Shodokan system the ability to apply techniques under pressure is learnt well in the crucible of shiai. I believe this is good to avoid this self-confidence and get involved in unnecessary harm situations. No argument there. I have seen levels of untested self confidence in dojos that would make you cringe. Those who do shiai are well aware of the difference between the mat and the street. By the way I would put good money on a competitive boxer surviving a street confrontation. These guys are tough, know how to give and take serious damage, and have enough grey cells left to toss any rules of fair play out the window.

Well, I have to agree with you that shiai used as a training tool could be very useful for improving your technique under pressure situations.

At our dojo, one of the Thai teachers does occasionally some sort of freestyle (jyuwaza) where Nage is attacked by one or several Uke. The attack should be as serious as possible in the limit of safety, and Uke can resist at will and apply counters also. It ends up often in grappling. It's not the sort of randori where Uke are falling on all sides.

Even though every aikidoka will know how good (or bad mostly) he did, there are no declared winners and loosers, and partners are chosen by the sensei mostly of matching ranks.

As for whether Aikido works or not, I am sure that it works very well for high ranks no matter the training method. I just like to believe that it does not work for me in order to avoid conflict caused by over self confidence or the desire to test one's fighting abilities.


Cheers,
edward

Peter R.,

A few comments.

Originally posted by PeterR Anyhow - the only reason I go on here was the "true student" statement. I recommend the truely exellent thread where Peter G. contributed greatly. From that I take it that Ueshiba M. never condemed shiai but kyou-sou. Kyou-sou can be found in shiai, in embu, in any and every dojo (including Edward's I am sure) and in every endeavor where more than one person is involved. It seems to be at work here. The trick is to overcome it. Home > AikiWeb Forums > AikiWeb: Language > "Competition"

Peter R.,

I am not sure about this and I wonder whether my posts in the other forum might have not been misuderstood. The most accessible written text of the Founder's own thoughts about competition is in Aikido Journal, Number 117, Page 21. The text is a translation by Sonoko Tanaka of a passage which appears on Pages 50 of Takemusu Aiki, by Hideo Takahashi.

Just so that there is no shadow of doubt about what the Founder actually stated, I quote the Japanese text and Sonoko Tanaka's translation.

ƒXƒ|�[ƒc‚Æ‚Í�A—V‹Z‚Å‚ ‚è�A—V‹Y‚Å‚ ‚é�B�°‚Ì‚Ê‚¯‚½—V‹Z‚Å‚ ‚é�Bé®�i"÷‘Ì�j‚Ì‚Ý‚Ì‹£‘ˆ‚È‚Ì‚Å ‚ ‚è�A�°‚Ì‹£‚¢‚Å‚í‚È‚¢�B

Sports are games and pastimes that do not involve the spirit. They are competitions only between physical bodies and not between souls. Thus, they are competitionsmerely for the sake of pleasure.

"ú--{‚Ì•�"¹‚Æ‚Í�A‚·‚ׂĂð˜a�‡‚³‚¹ŽçŒì‚·‚¤�A‚»‚µ‚Ä‚±‚Ì�¢‚ð‰h‚¦‚³‚¹‚鈤‚ÌŽÀ�s‚Ì‹£‘ˆ ‚Ì‚Ì‚Å‚ ‚é�B

The Japanese martial arts are a competition in in how we can express and realise love that unites and protects everything in harmony and helps this world to prosper.

�¢‚Ì'†‚ðŽç‚é‚Æ‚±‚ë‚Ì"¹‚Í�A—ì�°‚ðŽç‚è�A鮂Ì�¢‚àŽç‚è�A�°é®'²�‡‚̂ƂꂽƒAƒEƒ€‚̌ċz ‚ð‚à‚Á‚Ä�A‚·‚ׂĂÌ�¶�¬‰»ˆç‚Ì"¹‚ð‚ÎŽ»‚­Žç‚è�A‰h‚¦‚Ì"¹‚ðˆ¤ˆç‚·‚낱‚Æ‚Ì‹£‘ˆ‚Å‚ ‚é�B ‚±‚Ì‹£‘ˆ‚±‚»ƒiƒMƒiƒ~"ñ‘¸‚ð‚µ‚Ä‚Ì‘å�_‚Ì‚²Šˆ--ô‚ðŽÀ�Ý‚É�A�¡"ú‚Ì�¢‚ð‘n‚Á‚½‚±‚Æ"¯ˆê‚É ‚È‚Ì‚Å‚ ‚é�B

The Way that preserves the world is a competition to protect the spirit and also the physical world. It is a competition to completely guard the Way of birth and growth of all nature, and to lovingly cultivate the Way of flourishing of all, through the breath of A-UM (breathing out and in) in which the spirit and physical body are balanced and in harmony. This competition was exactly the same activity as the creation of today's world engaged in by the Great God through the two deities of Izanagi and Izanami.

The terms used by Morihei Ueshibain the sbove passage are kyousou ‹£‘ˆ and kisoi ‹£‚¢, whether in regard to competition in sport, or the higher form referred to later in the passage. Shiai ŽŽ�‡ is not mentioned once.

The word is, however, mentioned by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in Aikido Ichiro, his autobiography, in a lengthy section devoted to Tomiki Sensei (pp.184 - 188). This section is too long to quote or translate, but Kisshomaru discusses the occasions when Tomiki Sensei visited O Sensei in Iwama after the war and showed him the aiki-taiso exercises he had developped as a POW in Siberia. The Founder's reaction was, ‚»‚̂悤‚È‚à‚Ì‚ð�u�‡‹C�v‚Æ�Ì‚³‚ê‚Ä‚Í�¢‚é�@�@"If you call this sort of thing 'aiki; it will be a problem".

He goes on to explain that Tomiki Sensei later came to believe that competition ‹£‘ˆ‰»(kyousouka) was necessary as an educational tool. Kisshomaru does not quote Morihei Ueshiba's actual words, but does state that his own opinion and that of his father were the same. He also repeated this a number of times to me in private conversation. Whether it was called ‹£‘ˆ or ŽŽ�‡, it was not part of aikido. Tomiki Sensei eventually established an aikido club at Waseda, his own university, as part of the sports association. Kisshomaru Ueshiba was also a student of Waseda when his father retired to Iwama in 1942 and several years later formed a separate aikido club in the culture circle. The former was kyousou related; the latter was not. The latter was club run by Hiroshi Tada till recently.

Such is my information. it is reliable in the sense that the written word has been confirmed by Kisshomaru himself. It is not, of ocurse, free from bias and you would need to talk to reliable sources in Osaka about the involvement of the Founder himself with Tomiki Sensei's club.

Apologies for the extreme length of this post.

Best regards,

Thanks as always Peter.

As I understand it Ueshiba M. had little to do with Tomiki's Waseda club but I will ask next chance I get.

What interests me is what the aiki-taiso actually is. My understanding was a series of exercises including unsuko and tegatana dousa - nothing competitive at all. Another question for me to ask.

Originally posted by PeterR What interests me is what the aiki-taiso actually is. My understanding was a series of exercises including unsuko and tegatana dousa - nothing competitive at all. Another question for me to ask.

I was curious about that too, as I dont really see how the unsuko and tegatana dousa ('tandoku undo', I believe, for the non-Shodokan 'Tomiki' stylists) relate to the idea of 'competitive' aikido. They're more to do with a systematic method of teaching basic movements.

Did the founder have some objection to these excercises which did not relate to his feelings about 'sport' budo?

Sean
x

Interesting points.

I would not find it at all hard to believe that Ueshiba M. would look at the taiso excersises (which I understand as unsuko and tegatana dousa, also) and wonder where the aiki was.

For those who have not seen them, they are solo excercises with no blending into the attack or knocking anyone down ;^)

Peter G, thanks for taking the time and posting the translations.

Cheers,

Karl

Originally posted by PeterR Thanks as always Peter. As I understand it Ueshiba M. had little to do with Tomiki's Waseda club but I will ask next chance I get. What interests me is what the aiki-taiso actually is. My understanding was a series of exercises including unsuko and tegatana dousa - nothing competitive at all. Another question for me to ask.

Peter R.,

Yes. I, too, can see nothing remotely competitive about aiki-taiso and perhaps Morihei Ueshiba's reaction partly involved the name: they are not competitive, but, apparently, were not 'aiki' either, even though they had probably helped to keep Tomiki Sensei alive during the three years he spent in Siberia. I would imagine this latter point explained why Tomiki Sensei thought they were so important.

I have had occasion to talk about such an experience with Okumura Shigenobu Sensei, who is probably the only living member of the Aikikai who took part in the discussions between Tomiki Sensei and Morihei / Kisshomaru Ueshiba. Okumura Sensei first learned aikido in Manchuria from Tomiki Sensei and also spent several years in a Soviet prison camp. He also developed a training schedule to help his own survival.

My own feeling, and it is just an impression, from reading all the texts and the interviews, is that Tomiki Sensei's commitment to ‹£‘ˆ or ŽŽ�‡ (I use the Japanese because I do not think 'competition' really covers either term) developed over a lengthy period and his own teaching at Waseda was a major factor. It is clear that Morihei Ueshiba never developed a teaching methodology, either at the Kobukan or in Iwama from 1942 onwards. This was left to his disciples, including disciples like Tomiki Sensei. O Sensei was clearly a brilliant budoka, but I think (1) the distinction between practice / training / teaching and (2) the creation of a methodology which can be used effectively regardless of who uses it, were lost to him.

One way, of safeguarding the reputation of all parties, would be to say that O Sensei was above it all, and that it was a dispute between Tomiki Sensei and Kisshomaru Doshu. As I said, you would need to talk to the people who knew Tomiki Sensei very well, but I have my doubts about this (from talking to Kisshomaru Doshu and Okumura Sensei).

I think to say that Tomiki Sensei disagreed with the Founder concerning teaching methodology implies no disrespect to Tomiki Sensei. And he was not the first disciple to part company with the Founder over a substantial matter. Noriaki Inoue did the same in 1935 after the 2nd Omoto Incident.

Best regards,

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury And he was not the first disciple to part company with the Founder over a substantial matter. Noriaki Inoue did the same in 1935 after the 2nd Omoto Incident. Best regards,

KAMI : Dear Goldsbury Sama,

It's interesting but there's not much talk about the separation between Inoue Sensei and Ueshiba Morihei O. People talk about Ueshiba/Tomiki, Aikikai/Tohei but never about Inoue/Ueshiba.
Inoue Sensei was one of the best students of O-Sensei and his nephew. Many people considered him the most probable heir to the founder. He was also, like Ueshiba, an Omoto believer.
I've read that the main reasons for the parting between those great men was Ueshiba's unauthorized use of imperial symbols at the time he called his art KobuBudo and his attitude towards Onisaburo Deguchi after the 2nd Omoto Incident. Inoue accused O-Sensei of treason against their common religious master, since Ueshiba kept a distance from the Omoto leader and continued to teach military personnel, the same people who have imprisioned and tortured Deguchi.
Can you tell us anything about Inoue and Ueshiba and the reasons for the parting?
Best

Inoue Sensei was one of the best students of O-Sensei and his nephew. Many people considered him the most probable heir to the founder.

I thought Inoue Sensei was OSensei's son in law... not his nephew. Isn't he a kendo master now?

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury I, too, can see nothing remotely competitive about aiki-taiso and perhaps Morihei Ueshiba's reaction partly involved the name: they are not competitive, but, apparently, were not 'aiki' either

Also my feeling - they are not referred to as aiki-taiso anymore. No idea when that changed.

The Shodokan system has a series of exercises which are done at the start of and during each and every session. Many do not have an aiki feel to them, others such as the nana hon kuzushi do. However, what was pointed out to me several times last summer is that it is with these exercies, not the accumulation of waza, that your Aikido improves.

nana hon kuzushi?
is that Žµ--|•ö‚µ�H ‚Vth level flip?

What???

Originally posted by bcole23 nana hon kuzushi? is that Žµ--|•ö‚µ�H ‚Vth level flip?

My computer has some trouble with certain fonts.

Originally posted by Abasan I thought Inoue Sensei was OSensei's son in law... not his nephew. Isn't he a kendo master now?

KAMI : No. You're probably thinking about KIYOSHI NAKAKURA, O-Sensei's adopted son, who married Ueshiba's daughter. He was also a Kendo Master, under famous "sword saint" HAKUDO NAKAYAMA. Later he abandoned Aikido and Ueshiba's daughter and returned to his true love, Kendo. I believe he's now dead.
NORIAKI INOUE Sensei was O-Sensei's nephew and, as I said before, he parted ways rather acrimoniously with Ueshiba and continued, for some time, calling his art AIKIBUDO. Later, he changed its name to Shinwa Taido and later still to Shin'ei Taido. Although Inoue is also dead(a few years ago), I believe his art is still taught in Japan and elsewhere.
I really wish someone - not just Goldsbury Sama - send further information on this remarkable man. Mainstream Aikido almost never talks about him. Stanley Pranin - some time ago - made a tape with him and his art, Shin'ei Taido.
Waiting for further comments

This has certainty a hotly debated thread. I am glad to see so many people who are passionate about the practice of aikido and I commend Edward for starting the thread.

I've been doing martial arts for over 15 years (different styles, karate, kung fu, ju jitsu) I finally stumbled across aikido and after that demonstration I was hooked. I practice aikikai but have had the pleasure of experiencing yoseikan, yoshinkan and in the very near future, tomiki. I know there are many others but I'm afraid that there wont be enough hours in the day to experience all of them

Ultimately, I chose a martial art and "style" I felt was most suitable for me and that I liked.

As idealistic as it may be, my hope is that we can all appreciate an individuals' (be it aikidoka, yudansha or shihan) commitment, skill and expertise in aikido, regardless of the "style" or school or "political" persuasion.

My hope is that O Sensei would be pleased with the legacy that he has passed on and that he created something that has lasted. I would hope that he would be pleased with how others how interpreted his ideals and philosophies and extended the possibilities of the practice of aikido.

With a risk of sounding presumptous, but I hope that O Sensei would be like the proud father when he sees his sons and daughters achieve or even exceed their potential.

Yours in aiki

[quote="Niadh Feathers (Niadh)"]Edward,

The djo that I attend, my sensei stayed with his sensei for 15+ years, but found he was growing differently in Aikido than his sensei.

As has been pointed out to me, I was unsure how much (+) over 15 years.

Sorry Sensei, change that to 25+

Niadh

Mayland Long (MaylandL) wrote: I've been doing martial arts for over 15 years (different styles, karate, kung fu, ju jitsu)

(Emily here)

Not so long, myself.

Began in 89. One year of Aikikai. Started over in early 90s. Ki derivative, Seidokan. Followed that to my shodan in that style. Also studied Wing Tsun, backyard grunge kenjutsu, Yanagi Ryu, judo and kickboxing.

My study continues in this quilt, mostly jujutsu, and I continue not to focus on the end result but the possiblities therein. I hope.

Ultimately, I chose a martial art and "style" I felt was most suitable for me and that I liked.

Ultimately this is all what we must do.

We must pass no judgement on those who choose anything other than ourselves. We must only learn.

My hope is that O Sensei would be pleased with the legacy that he has passed on and that he created something that has lasted. I would hope that he would be pleased with how others how interpreted his ideals and philosophies and extended the possibilities of the practice of aikido.

And it's a presumptous b@stard who thinks otherwise.

With a risk of sounding presumptous, but I hope that O Sensei would be like the proud father when he sees his sons and daughters achieve or even exceed their potential.

Whether we know our potential or not.

The point is that we DON'T know.

The end result of any innovation is unknown. The minute we decide it is finite is the minute it dies.

I responded because Ubaldo was on this thread, Great Whatever rest him, and because we'd still like to have a bit of Oolong tea with Mayland.

mle (&cg)

Very interesting thread.

I think a lot depends on the definition of loyalty; is to the man himself or to an ideal?

I have heard it said that in order to remain "loyal" to Aikido you should as a student encourage diversity because that way the art will grow and evolve rather than stagnate or die. If the instructor does not accept that point of view then it is inevitable that instructor and student will part.

However I believe an instructor should encourage students to find their own path, all he can do is give you a basis for your own understanding of the art; not make you a clone or copy of himself.