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Old 08-03-2000, 07:04 AM   #26
DJM
Dojo: Two Rivers Dojo, York
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Triangle

Quote:
samurai_x wrote:

<snip>
2. Moving out of range - Side stepping or Taking a step back .
<snippet>
4. Last,I dont know if most of u agree w/ me on this ? Blocking the kick.
Hi..
I agree with a lot of what you suggested in the above post, however...

Side stepping is fine, but since karate-types tend to follow a kick with a punch you'll just offer then a nice inviting target for that follow-up if you only step back...
As for blocking, nope. Not - in my opinion at least - Aikido, since you're opposing your strength against his. Obviously there are strong arguments to use your tegatana to maintain maai, but not to actually stop the kick itself..
Just 2p worth...
Peace,
David

Sunset Shimmering,
On Water, Placid and Calm,
A Fish Touches Sky
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David Marshall
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Old 08-03-2000, 08:23 AM   #27
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Kicking

I have to agree completly with Ledyard sensei on this one. The only attacks I've experienced that included kicking was aimed at my knees or groin. If you think about it, knees are the closest targets to kick. Sword people know this all to well. You must either enter and jam the kick or enter around the kick and involk a defensive response from the attacker. Backing up will just serve to make you a bigger target, unless of course you're making distance in an attempt to introduce the attacker to Mr. Smith and Wesson.

Regards,

Dan Pokorny
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Old 08-03-2000, 08:36 AM   #28
Chuck Clark
 
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If it means anything...

I also agree with Ledyard sensei concerning defense against kicks. (I personally "love it" when the opponent chooses to stand on one leg while I get to stand on both of mine.)

You must understand that YOU WILL get hit in any encounter. The important part is that you survive and end the encounter.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 08-03-2000, 10:12 AM   #29
E.J. Nella
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Hi again,

I wish to give my opinion on a couple of ideas that have been touched on by a other folks in this thread. The first is ma-ai. If the attacker is too far to punch, they may still be close enough to kick. Sometimes we don't think of that while focusing on punches and grabs. This is what many people that train in different fighting arts are taught, particularly in Jeet Kune Do. There is a "kicking range", a "punching range" a "trapping range" (kind of like Tai Chi's Sticky Hands) and a "grappling range" (on the ground). So the point is to be aware of the attackers' distance so we can be prepared for what may be coming.

The second thought that entered my cashew-sized brain is "diversion". Again, in JKD we are taught to either punch with a single direct attack (with the intent to disable with the first blow) or attack with combination (in order to get the defender backing up on their heels). It is not assumed this will always be successful so both of these tactics are usually combined with a kick either first or second to divert the attention of the defender either high or low. Punches to the face area tend to bring the defenders' attention and hands up leaving them susceptible to a low kick. Delivering a low kick diverts the attention low to open up an attack high.

These points strike me as being important to an Aikidoist. We all try to keep a "soft focus" on our partner to be aware of anything, but if we don't occasionally see some kicks headed our way, when it happens we may not be able to act as quickly as necessary because we have not developed the muscle memory required to act without thinking too long.

My 2 copper pennies worth!

E.J.
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Old 08-03-2000, 07:29 PM   #30
Aiki1
 
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Kicking is always an interesting subject.... I spent several years learning Hapkido with Bong Soo Han quite a while ago, and pretty much learned the ins and outs - interestingly enough, a lot of the high Korean kicks, esp. the jump spinning ones, were actually originally designed to take a rider off a horse.

Larry Novick
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Old 08-04-2000, 06:02 AM   #31
jera
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Cool

Hi,

There's alot of good advice on here, so here's my two bits worth. I've spent quite alot of time in freeform sparring with friends who practice Jeet Kune Do type systems and pure Shotokan Karate. Both of these guys use alot more kicks than I do (I view them as flash if you have time but generally anything above knee height is too slow - could be my legs are slow but neither Tai Chi nor Wing Chun advise kicking high.) I have found that iriminage techniques work extremely well against karate style snap and push kicks, entering around the kick and executing your technique as your partner hurriedly tries to get his/her foot back on the floor. I do employ waist high front kicks quite alot as they are good for seting an opponent up for follow up hand techniques or just to push him/her out of reach. The only kick I had serious trouble getting around was the Thai shin kick that my JKD friend favours. I'd get inside the shin and get a knee in my back - and he's not afraid of going to the floor either so the resulting crash of limbs to the mat gets pretty messy.

Kicks are extremely powerful if you can land them and are best employed (as was shown in a previous post) to take care of secondary opponents at range or against relatively unskilled attackers.

Happy ukemi

Jera
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Old 08-04-2000, 08:25 AM   #32
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Kicks...like any other attack occur in either a vertical or horizontal plane. Aikido is well versed to handle kicks via the standard applications...i.e. irimi and tenkan.

Irimi works well for those attacks that occur in the Vertical plane..tenkan works well (sometimes coupled with irimi) in the horizontal.

The problem lies not in the application of technique but mindset. The first inclination is to block...but as my wise old Sensei told me..."If you have time to block, you have time to move" it's just a different set of muscles. Blocking is a situational response to a attack, Movement (irimi and tenkan) is a strategic response....moving to a place of specific advantage in relation to an attack. You change the line of attack to your advantage..it's a different mindset than the common aikido adage "get off the line". More realistically it is " Get off the line at the point where you have the upper hand."

Whew!
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Old 08-04-2000, 09:20 AM   #33
jera
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Hmm, absolutely, and that's where the weakness lies in kicks. They give you time to get moving.

Interestingly Wing Chun uses similar lines, angles and timing to Aikido but the applications are very different (all rapid short range strikes and kicks to the knees etc...).
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Old 08-04-2000, 12:01 PM   #34
andrea
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Kicks and Aikido

The only differece between kicks and punches is on the ma-ai. more important is to stop of speaking in termes of "defense" agaist kicks or anything else because this isn't a good attitude for fighting: defense is equipareted to passive while fighting speaking is better to be active then we should start to have an attacking attitude.
Hovever the best thing is to be able to balance inn and yang (not only during a training section or a fight) so, is not correct to stress on defense neither on attack (but i think too many aikidokas practise with a defense idea in their mind: they are dead before fighting)
sincerely yours
andrea anzalone
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Old 08-04-2000, 12:39 PM   #35
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Think again, Andrea. The movements of kicks and punches are quite different due to the mechanical workings of the joints involved. Kicks tend to always work in arcs and punches can come at you in a very straight line.

If you always watch the center line and shoulders of the uke, you can see any pre-movement body shift to take weight off a leg in order to kick (this works for the punches, too). Arcs are also much easier to see and enter into.

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-05-2000, 04:22 AM   #36
andrea
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Defense agains kicks

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Think again, Andrea. The movements of kicks and punches are quite different due to the mechanical workings of the joints involved. Kicks tend to always work in arcs and punches can come at you in a very straight line.

If you always watch the center line and shoulders of the uke, you can see any pre-movement body shift to take weight off a leg in order to kick (this works for the punches, too). Arcs are also much easier to see and enter into.
Hi Clark,
I thinked, and the result is that arcs and straight line enter together in the field of ma-ai, as I wrote yesterday, so the problem is the attitude and not the "technics".
Yours sincerely
andrea
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Old 08-05-2000, 08:55 PM   #37
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I have to agree with Clark Sensei - kicks and punches are not the same. Ma-ai is important, but I think the timing is different, and must be since more distance (therefore more time) is involved in an arc, rather than a straight-line attack.

May the force be with you!
AikiTom
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Old 08-05-2000, 11:25 PM   #38
George S. Ledyard
 
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Traditional japanese Style Kicks

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Think again, Andrea. The movements of kicks and punches are quite different due to the mechanical workings of the joints involved. Kicks tend to always work in arcs and punches can come at you in a very straight line.

If you always watch the center line and shoulders of the uke, you can see any pre-movement body shift to take weight off a leg in order to kick (this works for the punches, too). Arcs are also much easier to see and enter into.
This is true only of you are dealing with traditional Thai / Korean /Japanese / Okinawan styles of kicking. When you look at the South Asian styles or even an art like the Russian Systema kicks can be done at exactly the same range as the hands. In terms of the Jeet Kun Do ranges mentioned above We typically think of kicks at "kicking range", knees at "punching" and "trapping range" and , unless you are familiar with Thai close quarters knee techniques, we don;t usually consider kicks at grappingrange.

In your Kali, Silat, Kuntao styles or the Russian Systema you will see an array of close quarters leg techniques. The lines are often quite deceptive so that they tend to cause you to block on the wrong plane (the Jeet Kun Do folks call this PIA or Progressive Indirect attack which loosely translated means an attack that changes vectors in mid flight).

In all these systems there is a smooth transition from strikes using the legs / knees / feet to foot traps and entanglements. So the person doing what i recommended earler which is to enter directly to the attacker's center and jam the potential kick will still have to deal with non-impact use of the feet.

It is this reason that I beleive we discover an area which has largely disappeared from Aikido but I think ewas once important, trapping tha foot of the attacker. If you look at Silat for example, there are many technbiques that are very similar to those we know from Aikido. The difference is ath they are usually done without grabbing (using entanglement instead) and very frequently the defender enters directly in and manages to step on the attacker's foot thereby trapping it. Not only does this prevent him from making a balancing step in order to not fall, but it also prevents the use of that foot for impact technique. I think this type of training disappeared from Aikido because it is somewhat dangerous. If you think of a kokyunage executed when the ukes front foot is trapped you can see that as he falls in the typical spiral he will dislocate his ankle if you do not realease the foot.

When I started to investigate this I was supposing that these may havre been in Aikido at one time. Later my Assidtant Chief Instructor, Kevin Lam, told me that in fact Imaizumi Sensei had specifically stated in class that foot trapping had been important in applied technique.

Any, trapping is an important part of kick defense once you start considering the use of the legs and feet in these other styles.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 08-06-2000, 08:37 AM   #39
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When I hung around Seagal for a while years ago, before he became a movie star.... well anyway... Seagal used to (probably still does) teach stepping on the foot with the entry a lot, but I agree, it really is super dangerous. Also, I think it's tricky, meaning if one were to include it in one's repitoire, I think it would have to be used very strategically, because even though it can limit the ability of the attacker to kick etc., it can also limit the mobility and sense of "openness" of the nage.

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 08-06-2000, 12:56 PM   #40
Chuck Clark
 
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I specifically didn't deal with mawai because it can always be different relative to the techinque and intent.

However, kicks always work in an arc from the point of origin to the target. Punches can work in an arc or in a straight line similar to a piston.

Of course there are different styles of kicking, etc. Off-line/entering into the origin of the kick is the answer, in my experience.

Shinto Muso Ryu Jo techinques (at higher level in the system) often include stepping on the attacker's foot. I often do it in our Jiyushinkai style of randori, too, although you must be very careful as it is easy to hurt someone in practice.


[Edited by Chuck Clark on August 6, 2000 at 01:02pm]

Chuck Clark
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