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Old 06-10-2006, 06:41 PM   #26
DonMagee
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

I just wanted to point out a few things.

1) weight classes, BJJ and submission grappling as open weight divisions. Weight classes are to allow people to have a better chance at winning. Weight will always matter, even in aikido. To belive otherwise is a mistake.

2) Why would judo/bjj benfit a small woman? I think it would benfit because not only would you be training in a very resistive enviorment (which will allow you to gain skill quickly), you are also in the right place to have a skilled grappler who is larger than you (and male) attack you so you can test your skills. So you can really learn how to make your judo or bjj work against a 200 pound man, because you can actually engage a 200 pound man in sparing.

Other then that, you need to find what you really want from your training, and then find what you think is the best path. It doesnt' matter what any sensei, guy on a forum, or even I (As self important as I am) think about it. Go out there and try every art you find until you find one that you feel is really what you need. If its aikido, bjj, judo, wc, whatever. It is simply important that you feel it is right for you and that you are honest with yourself on what you are getting out of it. I personally recomend bjj because of its focus on the ground. And as a woman, if you are attacked, I belive the attacker will be trying to pin you on the ground.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:18 PM   #27
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & Kanchenjunga ?

Quote:
Don Maggee wrote:
I just wanted to point out a few things.

1) weight classes, BK and submission grappling as open weight divisions. Weight classes are to allow people to have a better chance at winning. Weight will always matter, even in aikido. To believe otherwise is a mistake.

2) Why would judo/bjj benfit a small woman? I think it would benfit because not only would you be training in a very resistive enviorment (which will allow you to gain skill quickly), you are also in the right place to have a skilled grappler who is larger than you (and male) attack you so you can test your skills. So you can really learn how to make your judo or bjj work against a 200 pound man, because you can actually engage a 200 pound man in sparing.

Other then that, you need to find what you really want from your training, and then find what you think is the best path. It doesnt' matter what any sensei, guy on a forum, or even I (As self important as I am) think about it. Go out there and try every art you find until you find one that you feel is really what you need. If its aikido, bjj, judo, wc, whatever. It is simply important that you feel it is right for you and that you are honest with yourself on what you are getting out of it. I personally recomend bjj because of its focus on the ground. And as a woman, if you are attacked, I belive the attacker will be trying to pin you on the ground.

I don't know why I keep walking into this but here goes.
Christine is 5' 3". She said, "I'm the size of a toothpick." She wears a size zero. I can imagine what she weighs.
Don, you said,"...you can really learn how to make your judo or bjj work against a 200 pound man...".
My sincere apologies Don but this is fantasy land. The chances of a tiny woman really being able to take down and defeat a 200 lb man with BJJ aren't good. I am not saying it's impossible because a good kick in the putuzies could take him down but then she wouldn't need BJJ for that. I'm not sure what movies we are watching out there but it really disturbs me to see this kind of advice going out there.
Christine, I have lots of women training in our dojos. My own daughter has trained for years. One of my best students currently of all the students I have here in Houston is a woman but that doesn't change the fact that men are stronger than women in general and no art or tricks will change that. Aikido has locks and holds you can use but I have trained against men who are big enough and strong enough that short of a tire iron, you are in trouble. Going to BJJ is not the answer. In fact, no martial art can make you that invincible.

Training a martial art is percentages. Every day you train and improve, you increase the percentages of surviving an attack or encounter. If you train in something that fits your size and body type, that increases your chances.If you take on a 200 pound man hoping to beat him with BJJ, you could be putting yourself in a lot of danger. There are better ways to defend against man that size compared to you and there is no martial art that can give you that if the size and weight difference is great enough.
I am seeing this forum with more and more people with these ideas who are enamored with BJJ but I think its dangerous if we start accepting fantasies. I tell my women students, in an attack, you can surprise a man and beat him but don't think you can do it just like that. You will lose if you think you can just beat men because you take such and such martial art. This is the real world. Pepper spray, a small weapon like a bar in your hand or just getting close enough for a well timed kick will do more for you than all the BJJ in the world. I say that with respect to the height and weight difference between you and a 200 lb man. Besides, with all this belief in BJJ, I am sure the attacker will know it too since the whole world loves BJJ. Then you'd be cooked for sure!

Christine, take Aikido or Wing Chun as a training suitable for almost anyone. You will learn great stuff that will be practical for you in the long run. For close ground contact with 200 pound men, use pepper spray, well timed groin kicks, fingers in the eyes and try to get away but better yet, stay out of that kind of situation. Using the rules of personal safety can keep you out of trouble for a lifetime the greater majority of the time.

If you doubt me, then I suggest you go to your nearest BJJ dojo and get in there with a 200 pound man. That will go further toward helping you than anything I have said here today. I apologize if I have said anything that disillusions you toward martial arts. There is no magic here. While height and weight aren't everything, they make a difference until you gain skill but in BJJ, mo matter how good you are, if the man weighs 200 lbs and you weigh 140, that's 60 pounds. Save your money!

Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:35 PM   #28
ChrisMoses
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & Kanchenjunga ?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
I don't know why I keep walking into this but here goes.
Christine is 5' 3". She said, "I'm the size of a toothpick." She wears a size zero. I can imagine what she weighs.
Don, you said,"...you can really learn how to make your judo or bjj work against a 200 pound man...".
My sincere apologies Don but this is fantasy land. The chances of a tiny woman really being able to take down and defeat a 200 lb man with BJJ aren't good.
Mifune Kyuzo was 5' 2" tall and weighed a whopping 123 lbs, yet went undefeated nearly his whole life. Was awarded judan in judo and is still considered by many to have been one of the greatest martial artists of the 20th century. While I'm one of the first ones to dismiss the notion that weight and size don't offer an advantage. I think it's also silly to tell someone that they will never succeed in a particular martial art (particularly something like judo) because of their size. Finding the right dojo would be very important, but dismiss someone because of their size seems a bit much. No one would be expected to step onto the mat their first night and be able to handle someone larger and more skilled.
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:44 PM   #29
DonMagee
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

I never said she should attack a 200 pound man I the street. I only said that she could actually get attacked by one in the dojo and learn how to to defend herself from one. I'm 162 pounds and 5' 9". I can use my judo and bjj skills against guys who are well over 200 pounds. In fact I did just that today (in the club, not the street). Do I will every encounter, no actually I loose about 19 out of 20. But I bet I am more skilled at it then anyone who has never done it. And just MAYBE that could save my life. Which is better then ignoring the fact and saying "I can't possibly win". I'd say I'm one of the more realistic people you will meet in my training. This is because I have an actual idea of what I can and can not do, beacuse I am actually doing it for sport. I know I can handle a less skilled person who has more strenght and more weight then I do in a limited rules enviroment. I know that when all bets are off and I can leverage even more dirity tricks that I will be able to leverage those skills to even up or even have an advantage against a larger opponent on the street (not that I train for or care about the street).

So, I guess, because this is not obvious, on the street no matter what your training you should NEVER engage in fighting. But, if you get the drop on you, you should be prepared to defend yourself the best way possible. If you want to learn how to defend yourself on the ground, don't go learn to box. And if you think I am saying, BJJ is the greatest art in the world, learn it and be undefeatable, you are sadly mistaken. I am saying train for the situations you plan to need your skills in.

Can you beat a man who ways 60 pounds more then you do? I dont know ask Royce. Go watch a naga open weight divison. It will be the hardest fight of your life, but you can do it.

Of course then the question begs? Why are you telling her to train aikido or WC? Neither will help her, she is small and weak.

And yes, a weapon will help, a kick to the nuts MAY help (most likley wont do a damn thing). But that is obvious. What is not obvious is how she should defend herself if someone is trying to rape her. Attackers on the street dont walk up to women and say "Hey, come here and I'm going to rape you". They get the jump on women who look like they make easy targets. A small woman looks like an easy target. When they take you down, you dont have a chance to get your peper spray, or get your stick, or get to those nuts. Unless of course you know how to use leverage and move on the ground. You NEED ground training to learn that. Nothing else can teach it to you.

So I ask you, what does aikido or WC have that fits the size of a small woman that bjj doesn't have? And how does it help her defend herself against a rape? (To clarify, we are talking after the attacker has chosen her as a victim, and is attacking her with the intent to take her down and rape her.) How do the training methods of aikido or WC help prepare her for this, and what skills will she need to survivie? And finally, when overpowered by a man on the ground, how do you get to pepper spary, kick him in the nuts while pinned down, or clawn his eyes when he is in dominate control?

I belive you can defend yourself with aikido, I belive you can defend yourself with WC. But I belive in looking objectivly at your goals. Woman's self defense must include actually self defense in the clinch on the ground. Neither aikido or WC will give her that. They will only give her princples and theorys which she may somenday learn to leverage against an attack.

I think we all want everyone who comes to this site to train in aikido (I mean thats the purpose we all come here for.) However, do we concider the goals and needs of the people who come here for advice?

Sorry if I seem harsh, I dont mean to come off as harsh. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down and setup a gentoo server at the same time.

Last edited by DonMagee : 06-10-2006 at 08:47 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:50 PM   #30
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & Kanchenjunga ?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Mifune Kyuzo was 5' 2" tall and weighed a whopping 123 lbs, yet went undefeated nearly his whole life. Was awarded judan in judo and is still considered by many to have been one of the greatest martial artists of the 20th century. While I'm one of the first ones to dismiss the notion that weight and size don't offer an advantage. I think it's also silly to tell someone that they will never succeed in a particular martial art (particularly something like judo) because of their size. Finding the right dojo would be very important, but dismiss someone because of their size seems a bit much. No one would be expected to step onto the mat their first night and be able to handle someone larger and more skilled.
We're talking percentages. I said her chances wouldn't be good. Your statement," Mifune Kyuzo was 5' 2" tall and weighed a whopping 123 lbs, yet went undefeated nearly his whole life. Was awarded judan in judo and is still considered by many to have been one of the greatest martial artists of the 20th century."... doesn't prove your point, it proves mine. Can you count all the great champions that didn't go undefeated their whole lives?
Mifune Kyuzo was one of the greatest martial artists in the whole 20th century. I'm not sure if Christine wants to run those odds.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:52 PM   #31
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Do I will every encounter, no actually I loose about 19 out of 20.
I rest my case.

Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-11-2006, 05:01 AM   #32
Aristeia
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

Jorge your argument is full of holes.
yes she will be at a serious disadvantage because of her size. Judo and BJJ will not be the arts to produce fantasies to the contrary. Because they spar with live resistance, giving the practioner a pretty clear idea of what they can and can't accomplish.
you're argument seems to be - because you're small and weak go you'll get smashed in grappling, so come do aikido where you will be able to accomplish almost as much as bigger stronger people.

Well that's only because the ukes will fall for both the strong and the weak in aikido. Because there is no full resistance sparring. It is here that you are more likely to develop dangerous fantasies about what one can accomplish in Martial Arts. I've seen it all too often.

you seem to scoff at Dan's 19 out of 20 loss record against larger opponenets. I'd wager most Aikidoka (not all but most) would do much worse - they just never get to find out.

Let me also add this. Everyone I've met that claims that judo or BJJ are not the art to reccommend because they require size and strength, do so out of ignorance of how these arts actually work. They observe a match or some footage and come to the conclusion that it's about strength. It's not. But you have to study it to figure out what is actually going on. Just like aikido looks fake to many observers and it is only through study you realise where the power is. You're claim that BJJ/Judo is of no use to smaller or weaker people, is just as misguided and frustrating as those who claim aikido is only a dance and is all fake.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-11-2006, 07:52 AM   #33
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

Michael,
Your last post does not represent anything I believe or said.
I think almost all martial arts would effective in improving your chances of surviving a fight. I also think almost all martial arts would help a persons chances against a heavier and larger person. I also believe it is theoretically possible that that an extremely small person could defeat an extremely large person. O Sensei who was 4'11" would be proof of that. You don't seem to understand what a percentage is. If one out of a million people who are 4'11" defeat a person who outweighs them by 60 pounds, that is not a good prognosticator for a person who is 4'11" taking an art to believe that if they take that art, that they too will be able to do so. If 100 people out of a million people who are 4' 11" are able to defeat a person who out weigh them by 60 pounds, that is not a good predictor that they will be able to do it. If 500,000 people out of 1 million people who are 4'11" can defeat someone who out weigh them by 60 pounds, that is only a 50/50 chance.

I have been in martial arts long enough to know that if you glibly recommend an art because of what an art is made for (like excellent ground work) without a proper consideration of the vital statistics, your are making a huge mistake. That's the same mistake that millions of kids make, who are excellent sandlot basketball players but don't have a chance of getting into the NBA. They don't understand what the numbers are. They may say that a guy from that neighborhood made it. They may say that their daddy made it. They may say that other sandlot players have made it. I am not saying that they shouldn't play basketball. I am not saying they have zero chance. I am saying that if they believe they have a good chance, they are wrong. The percentage of NBA players against the sandlot and recreational players in the world gives an extremely bad chance of that player making it. I am just asking that we deal with facts and not build up false hopes in people.

Don is a man. He is an avid BJJ practitioner, but is own record is no assurance that a tiny woman can do what he has not accomplished yet. He is recommending to a woman who says she is tiny that it would be good if she practice against a 200 pound man because she would discover her abilities and improve them. I an suggesting that based on his record, that in itself proves this wouldn't be a good use of her time. BJJ is a specific kind of an art. I know what it is and from all the BJJ I have seen and I have had the privilege of watching my share, I know how tough it is. One of my best friends on earth has been doing it for years. Thats not an art you recommend for a tiny woman who is looking for an effective way to defend herself.
If she wants to go and learn BJJ and have a good time, then yes. If she wants to find out if she is one of those people who will be one of the greatest in the 20th century, then yes. But if she believes based on a recommendation that BJJ could effectively help her defend herself against a man that out weighs her by 60 pounds, then I disagree. The ground is no place for a tiny woman against an man who out weighs you by 60 pounds.

Last edited by Jorge Garcia : 06-11-2006 at 07:58 AM.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-11-2006, 09:13 AM   #34
DonMagee
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & Kanchenjunga ?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
We're talking percentages. I said her chances wouldn't be good. Your statement," Mifune Kyuzo was 5' 2" tall and weighed a whopping 123 lbs, yet went undefeated nearly his whole life. Was awarded judan in judo and is still considered by many to have been one of the greatest martial artists of the 20th century."... doesn't prove your point, it proves mine. Can you count all the great champions that didn't go undefeated their whole lives?
Mifune Kyuzo was one of the greatest martial artists in the whole 20th century. I'm not sure if Christine wants to run those odds.
Best wishes,
Unforutnatly we are also not all Ueshiba either. But that doesn't mean we can't gain useful skill from aikido. Of course, I dont want to run the odds I can be Ueshiba either.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-11-2006, 09:24 AM   #35
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

I don't recall saying we couldn't gain useful skills. Of course you can. In BJJ, Aikido, Judo or anything you choose to study and the longer you do your art, the better you will be for it. That excludes no person, regardless of weight or size.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-11-2006, 10:00 AM   #36
DonMagee
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Michael,
The ground is no place for a tiny woman against an man who out weighs you by 60 pounds.
Because we always have a choice. Will she have better success in keeping a 200 pound man from taking her to the ground? Not likley. Hell Most people have trouble keeping a man their size from taking them to the ground. Once on the ground however, without ground training, she will have even less chance. I'm not saying bjj or judo will make her invincible. I'm saying that bjj or judo will greatly increase her chance of survival in a unavoidable confrontation. Aikido will also help, but it will take years, and even then she may not have gained any skill. And her training will not of put her in situtations where she will know if she can make aikido work (this is due to a lack of sparing). So she will have a 50/50 shot of either wrong self confidence she is ready to defend herself, or being able to defend herself. And she will still have the next to imposible chance of defending her self against a larger attacker.

In judo or bjj, it wont take 10 years to gain a creditable amount of skill, and she will have a realistic idea of what she can and can not do though sparing. This seems like a better idea for someone who's main worry is self defense.

I'm all for people traing aikido or any martial art. But I'm also very worried that they dont look at their training honestly and make sure they are getting the best training for their time and money. Aikido can be used for self defense, but its training rarely lends itself to self defense. BJJ training can be used for spirital growth,but it rarely lends itself to it.

I dont care if she trains bjj, judo, aikido, boxing, ninjitsu, or wc. What I do care is that if self defense is a high priority that she actually puts herself in situations as close to the ones she may get in (a ground attack by a much larger man). Then in those situations learn how she can deal with them. To do anything else is just silly. If her aikido school lends itself to it, then she should by all means go train there. But to dismiss the possiblity with "a small woman shouldn't go to the ground" is like saying "well never fight a man with a knife, thats your knife defense". Its just doesn't make any sense.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:39 AM   #37
ChrisMoses
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:

Don is a man. [snippage] The ground is no place for a tiny woman against an man who out weighs you by 60 pounds.
That pretty much sums up Jorge's argument as I read it right there, so I'm going to just leave his comments at that. I feel his logical inconsistencies and double standards (not just towards gender but towards goals and benefits of varied arts) makes his comments kind of a non-starter for me. I'll address this to Christine in the hopes that she'll be able to take something useful from this rather than be shocked at the bickering.

Christine, go check out the options in your area and just see what feels right. Almost any martial art you do will give you the benefits that you're seeking, and you'll probably have a great time doing them. Don't rule out an art because it's a 'guys' art. Judo and its derivitives (like BJJ through Kosen Judo) can offer a great deal to nealy anyone willing to put in the mat hours. Arts with randori (a freestyle component, I'm not talking about what Aikido typically refers to as randori) will offer you a way to get a quick and often humbling reality check. Dojos are all very different and most people know very quickly if they can see themselves training there. Some BJJ/Judo dojos work a lot like competitive wrestling schools. Others spend a lot of time doing uchikomi and other less resistant training. Any dojo that's worth going to will teach you and your partners will try to meet you at your level. A good dojo won't throw you into groundfighting your first night with the senior student and just wish you luck. A good dojo might have you work with the senior student all night because they will be best able to offer you skill/size apropriate feedback to HELP you learn. This is just as true in Aikido as WC as Judo as BJJ as Kung Fu... As some have pointed out, the lack of a reality check in *many* Aikido dojos means that many of its practitioners have a fairly unrealistic idea of what they and their art can do. Finally, find something close by, you said you have two kids, I'm sure you don't have endless free time. Some dojos even offer child care. Location is one of the most important things to consider when trying to squeeze something like the martial arts into an already busy schedule. You'll need to do 3x a week at whatever you do to see any progress, espescially at first, so it should be convenient to get to, or after a while, you won't make it.

Good luck, and trust your instincts. If you don't like the vibe, get out.
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Old 06-11-2006, 01:21 PM   #38
Aristeia
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

Jorge, what thread are you reading.
No one has said that taking any particular art will make success a given. We all understand that someone this size is up against it. It is you that seems to be saying "even though you are small and will likely be overwhelmed, don't do ground fighting because the ground is a bad place to be mmmmkay".

In fact I don't think anyone even reccommended just BJJ - my reccomendation was judo and that was a part of most other reccomendations as well. Which of course gives you plenty of standing options as well as a back up reportoire when it does it the ground (which remember, is where a potential attacker is likely to be *trying* to take it).

The big problem with your argument is that it looks like this. "Don't do bjj - martial arts won't help you you're too small, and you'll get a false sense of confidence. BTW do aikido"
You have yet to show why aikido (which you've reccommmended) is a better option than judo/bjj.

If we apply your test and say "get in there with a 200 pound man actively trying to take you to the ground and try and get aikido techniques to work" what do you think the result would be?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-11-2006, 01:39 PM   #39
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Cross-training:Aikido & WingChunKungFu ?

For Don and Christian,
I am glad to yield the floor to you. Your arguments taught me a lot about the nature of logic and rational informed opinions.

I am glad though that Christine has already made up her mind. She made a wise choice.
She wrote,
"I've found an Aikido Dojo that I'm going to train with. The most attractive thing about this Dojo is the people there and the sense of community among them. It's a great environment. It feels right."

Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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