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Old 07-20-2000, 10:49 PM   #1
liam
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How much does your aikido reflect your own attitudes towards retribution?

For example, would you consider using a permanently maiming atemi (say, to the eyes) if you felt genuinely threatened?

If someone attacks you with a knife do you feel entitled to use that knife if you can get control of it?

I was having a conversation with someone about this, and it felt like that we could scale this same argument to one about capital punishment. If someone threatens your life and you had the opportunity to end theirs in defending yourself, would you take the opportunity? Does your aikido style reflect this - perhaps you teach harder, more combat effective techniques to accompany the "eye for an eye" view?

When asking myself these questions, I'm finding myself to be quite the pacifist - although our dojo teaches some "aiki-jutsu" I only practice it for historical interest, imagining that I'd use only non-damaging "aiki-do" instead.

liam - Uni of Western Australia Aikido
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Old 07-20-2000, 11:12 PM   #2
Nick
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I like to think I have enough control over myself (and, if the need should an arise, an attacker) that I try to live by this old samurai adage:

"Cause Pain before you injure. Injure before you maim. Maim before you kill. And if you must kill, make a clean kill. Squeeze every drop of life from your opponent, for life is too precious to be wasted."

-Nick

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Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 07-21-2000, 06:04 PM   #3
AikiTom
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In its true biblical sense "an eye for an eye" does not prescribe or order extreme retribution. On the contrary, it means to limit retribution to no more than what was taken, in other words, losing an eye does not warrant taking two eyes, or an arm and a leg, or, well you get it

SO, in the sense it's meant "an eye for an eye" is related to aikido in that it prescribes reactions that are proportionate, and thus more ethical, to the provocation.

Knowing that you can't come out of a fight better than you went in, the best "win" is without fighting, and without damage. That not being possible, when an attacker means to cause serious harm or kill, and a quick solution is vital to preserve life, what about taking out a knee with a kick to disable, or an eye - and, actually, aren't those reponses "under"-proportionate to the threat involved? Sometimes love for who you are protecting, plus love for the attacker may not be attainable.

May the force be with you!
AikiTom
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Old 07-22-2000, 01:18 AM   #4
Erik
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Quote:
liam wrote:How much does your aikido reflect your own attitudes towards retribution?
I don't think about retribution as such when I practice.

Quote:
For example, would you consider using a permanently maiming atemi (say, to the eyes) if you felt genuinely threatened?
Yes and without hesitation. But I'm not good enough to hit that specific a target. No one is in my opinion unless they have a significantly higher skill level than their attacker and if their skill level is that much better then they've got better options. But would I break something in the right situation? You betcha.

Quote:
If someone attacks you with a knife do you feel entitled to use that knife if you can get control of it?
I don't like the word entitled. You are telling me you think it's wrong to use a knife in any situation. If the choice is between walking away or being carried away I'd use the knife. Now I would not feel like, "ok, he tried to stab me, I've got me a knife, lets stick it in him." But I can imagine many, many situations where I'd stick a knife in someone. You might put a knife in someone if you were faced with multiple attackers (all armed) and you needed to make sure they stayed down when they went down. You might have screwed up something and you see serious risk coming up and it's knife or be knifed.

Quote:
I was having a conversation with someone about this, and it felt like that we could scale this same argument to one about capital punishment. If someone threatens your life and you had the opportunity to end theirs in defending yourself, would you take the opportunity?
If I had the choice I would not. In an adrenaline, scared, psychologically imbalanced craziness as you would be in a life threatening situation who can say.

Quote:
Does your aikido style reflect this - perhaps you teach harder, more combat effective techniques to accompany the "eye for an eye" view?
No! We practice for the 999,999 times out of million that we'll get in a verbal or personal conflict rather than the 1 in a million chance one of us will get into a physical conflict.

Quote:
When asking myself these questions, I'm finding myself to be quite the pacifist - although our dojo teaches some "aiki-jutsu" I only practice it for historical interest, imagining that I'd use only non-damaging "aiki-do" instead.
It shows a bit in your words. By the way, non-damaging "aiki-do" will likely break something in your attacker. Your adrenaline rush and their resistance will not do good things for them.

The trick with Aikido is that we have alternatives. We can hurt if it's called for and we can also scale downward (much easier said than done if your attacker has competence) whereas with other arts the options are much less limited.

[Edited by Erik on July 22, 2000 at 02:40am]
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Old 07-22-2000, 05:41 PM   #5
Nick
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*applause and a single tear*

looks like ya nailed it, Erik. Makes my post look pretty sad .

-Nick

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Old 07-22-2000, 07:00 PM   #6
Ronald
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comparing arts

Erik, loved your posting. I myself do not practice Aikido, but wanted to comment.

Quote:
Erik wrote:
The trick with Aikido is that we have alternatives. We can hurt if it's called for and we can also scale downward (much easier said than done if your attacker has competence) whereas with other arts the options are much less limited.

I was invited to watch an Aikido training in Little Tokyo a week ago, and was really intrigued by the different use of the body dynamic that Aikido has from Shito-Ryu Karate, which I practice. I also have a friend who has been doing Wu Shu for 18 years... and that is very different again.

From the outside looking in, I do think that Aikido offers the martial artist more gentle yet effective alternatives to stop an attacker than other styles I have seen. My style of karate does have some techniques for stopping and not hurting -- but by no means the variety I think Aikido must have, and they are not emphasized. The emphasis is one blow, one attacker down.

Karate was birthed in a nation subjugated by armoured, sword-wielding maniacs from Kyoshu. The assumption was that you never, *never* fight; but if you must fight, Fight. In other words, avoid it to the point where death faces you or a loved one. It needed to end quickly; your opponent was likely to be armed, and there was a good chance you would be facing more than one.

Right now I am studying and watching Aikido (not actually doing it). From only this thread, I think it is clear that Aikidoists are just people too, and as individuals they have different lines in the sand as to where they are willing to hurt or kill someone. But the entire fabric which underlays what I have seen is a very different assumption, which is that when in a fight, do your best to disable them without hurting them.

Why is that? Maybe because, in modern times, we simply are not faced with that terrible, abusive, life-or-death environment of Okinawa hundreds of years ago. Aikido is an art of more modern and civilized times.

I think both approaches have their merits. I pity the Karate-ka who regrets breaking an attackers neck, and with a guilt ridden conscious imagines how he could have done it differently as he sits in a prison cell. I also pity the Aikidoist who tries to throw an assailant to the ground and pin him without hurting him; and instead offers the attacker the second opportunity needed to suddenly rob him of his life.

In the end, all of the above is meaningless banter. What you are fighting for will tell you what you need to do. And from what I have seen, Aikido offers more opportunity to disable your opponent without killing them. I am also worried that an Aikidoist is offering more opportunities for a fellow, trained as I am, to disable them in a less friendly manner.
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Old 07-22-2000, 10:45 PM   #7
Nick
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Re: comparing arts

Quote:
Ronald wrote:


I pity the Karate-ka who regrets breaking an attackers neck, and with a guilt ridden conscious imagines how he could have done it differently as he sits in a prison cell. I also pity the Aikidoist who tries to throw an assailant to the ground and pin him without hurting him; and instead offers the attacker the second opportunity needed to suddenly rob him of his life.
How about this:

I pity the aikidoka who regrets breaking an attacker's neck, and with a guilt ridden conscience imagines how he could have done differently, while sitting in prison. I also pity the karateka who tries to subdue an assailant and pin him to the ground without hurting him... you get the idea...

What I'm saying is yes, each style is effective, when used as it should be. We should not make karate what it is not and we should not make aikido what it is not.

Peace, love, and enlightment,

-Nick

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Old 07-23-2000, 05:23 PM   #8
George S. Ledyard
 
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Retribution

Quote:
liam wrote:
How much does your aikido reflect your own attitudes towards retribution?

For example, would you consider using a permanently maiming atemi (say, to the eyes) if you felt genuinely threatened?

If someone attacks you with a knife do you feel entitled to use that knife if you can get control of it?

I was having a conversation with someone about this, and it felt like that we could scale this same argument to one about capital punishment. If someone threatens your life and you had the opportunity to end theirs in defending yourself, would you take the opportunity? Does your aikido style reflect this - perhaps you teach harder, more combat effective techniques to accompany the "eye for an eye" view?

When asking myself these questions, I'm finding myself to be quite the pacifist - although our dojo teaches some "aiki-jutsu" I only practice it for historical interest, imagining that I'd use only non-damaging "aiki-do" instead.

liam - Uni of Western Australia Aikido
In my opinion making the choice to die rather than inflict injury on an attacker represents an anti-evolutionary step. Look at the Jewish peoples of Europe who were almost exterminated because they were nice, law abiding, and civilized. They had lost the ability and will to defend themselves and they paid the price. the only reason there were any who survived is that there were other people who had not lost that ability.

You are entitled to use whatever means is necessary to defend yourself as long as there is a deadly threat. That is not retribution it is effective self defense. If however you inflict injury after the threat has been ended that is retribution and that is illegal.

Frankly, if you strike someone in the eyes in order to survive a knife attack you have used lesser force than the attcker had the right to expect. It would have justifiable to use killing technique since his attack was on that level. Striking the eyes (or breaking a limb) and then disarming him is actually rather restrained.

I think that there are a lot of people who are in denial about their own fears. They avoid what they see as violence because they are afraid of what they might haved inside them. It is an unbalance that is not natural. All animals will defend themselves when threatened and that is natural and proper.


[Edited by George S. Ledyard on July 23, 2000 at 08:26pm]

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Old 07-24-2000, 02:25 AM   #9
Frankk
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Unhappy reply to Ledyard Sensei. Sort of OT

Ledyard Sensei wrote "In my opinion making the choice to die rather than inflict injury on an attacker represents an anti-evolutionary step. Look at the Jewish peoples of Europe who were almost exterminated because they were nice, law abiding, and civilized. They had lost the ability and will to defend themselves and they paid the price. the only reason there were any who survived is that there were other people who had not lost that ability."


Sorry Ledyard sensei, I agree with the meat of your post but your example is plain wrong. As in all cultures and societies, only a small fraction within a group of people are willing to die to defend themselves or others. The Pre WWII jews had that same percentage (dissidents, local militia and police) who were quickly weeded out and killed by the nazi party. After that militant group is separated, it is quite easy to herd the rest of the group into slaughter or whatever you want to do with them. With the jews it was even easier as they were such a minority in Germany (and Europe), probably outnumbered something like 15 to 1.
If something like the Holocaust happened in the USA, do you think it would be any different? Say a dictator somehow got power (with our OVERWHELMING voter turnout), used the military or federal bureaus to enforce his rule. The first folks he would go after would be the dissidents (ie. intellectuals and local martial artists, militia and local police). After that, everyone else would probably just fall into step. Historically this has happened way to often.
Remember the Cossacks were in the same boat as the jews, and thanks to Stalin, there are none of them left. (but they fought well)

When it comes right down to it, ours is a tradition not only of enlightenment and character building, but also to be defenders to those (which is about 95% percent of all humans) who are unable or unwilling to defend themselves. O'sensei spoke quite often of the responsibility within our training. This is the reason I take such pride in working with police officers.
Frankk

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Old 07-24-2000, 06:38 AM   #10
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: reply to Ledyard Sensei. Sort of OT

Quote:
Frankk wrote:
Ledyard Sensei wrote "In my opinion making the choice to die rather than inflict injury on an attacker represents an anti-evolutionary step. Look at the Jewish peoples of Europe who were almost exterminated because they were nice, law abiding, and civilized. They had lost the ability and will to defend themselves and they paid the price. the only reason there were any who survived is that there were other people who had not lost that ability."


Sorry Ledyard sensei, I agree with the meat of your post but your example is plain wrong. As in all cultures and societies, only a small fraction within a group of people are willing to die to defend themselves or others.
You are correct when you say that my example was wrong in the sense of any implication that that particular population was unique. I suspect that any population is composed mostly of individuals that are essentially peace loving and are not inclined to fight unless persuaded (forced) by an outside influence like a government. The scale of it is still mind boggling to me. How so many people could simply walk to their doom, especially after they knew what was going on. Why was Sobibor unique? I would have thought that would have happened at all the camps once the prisoners knew they were going to die anyway.

As to your comment about working with the police, I totally agree. I love working with them. But they'd be the first ones to tell you that they are not there to defend the citizens. They arrive after a crime has already been committed and don't normally get to act proactively. It is still up to the individual to take responsibility for his or her own defense rather than mistakenly believe that someone else is going to perform that function.

[Edited by George S. Ledyard on July 24, 2000 at 06:41am]

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Old 07-24-2000, 07:18 AM   #11
Frankk
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Ai symbol

Ledyard sensei wrote, "As to your comment about working with the police, I totally agree. I love working with them. But they'd be the first ones to tell you that they are not there to defend the citizens. They arrive after a crime has already been committed and don't normally get to act proactively. It is still up to the individual to take responsibility for his or her own defense rather than mistakenly believe that someone else is going to perform that function."
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George S. Ledyard
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I should have been more clear when I was talking about working with police and their role in our defense. The example that will stand out for the rest of my life is of a cop that I train with, all of 5'6" and 140 pounds
who one night pulled over a belligerent drunk. Said officer has been training with me for about 2 years, (I am 6'4 and large)and we have been working on leg picks to get big people down. After months of mixed results, he starts getting the technique down.
Well, the drunk 6, 200 attacked him that night(said he wasnt going to be taken in alive). Jeff (in a panicked state, he said) dropped off the line, leg picked him, put the drunk down on his face, partially cuffed him and waited on backup. He says specifically that what he did was a result of our training...ie failure, evaluate, retry.
Another policeman singlehandedly takes a rowdy, threatening and dangerous drunk off the street (without beating him half to death) and goes home to his wife and kid. Who knows, Clark Sensei's 40 years of training passed onto Duncan Sensei's 25 years of training passed onto my 7 years of training may have all been only to save Jeff's life that night?
Frankk
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Old 07-24-2000, 08:02 AM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Quote:
Frankk wrote:
I should have been more clear when I was talking about working with police and their role in our defense..... Who knows, Clark Sensei's 40 years of training passed onto Duncan Sensei's 25 years of training passed onto my 7 years of training may have all been only to save Jeff's life that night?
Frankk
From that standpoint I am in total agreement. I had a similiar experience in which one of my officers pulled over a drunk driver. The guy had a knife on the console and came straight out at the officer when he opened that door. He told me later that he wasn't even sure what he had done but that he was quite sure that the training we had done was what let him respond so quickly and decisively. Certainly his ability to respond either saved his life or that of the subject as most officers would have had to resort to shooting the guy if they hadn't been disabled by his initial attack.

The training we do with the cops is an Aikido based form of Defensive Tactics. It has a heavy emphasis on impact technique and ground control as well as street adapted takedowns and control techniques. We put a lot of emphasis on light freestyle practice with one partner being a resistant or aggressive subject. Rather than focus on technically perfect execution in a controlled circumstance which is how we train in Aikido they are trained from the start to respond spontaneously and develop a strong winning attitude. If they stick around long enough they eventually start to develop good technique but if they don't they at least leave with something that will benefit them on the street.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-24-2000, 10:41 AM   #13
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It's all theory anyway

What anyone would, or would not do is merely theory in any of these discussions. You may well have great morals and good intentions, but the situation itself will determine the final outcome.

Also, there is a huge difference between dealing with drunks and dealing with all out crazy or drug induced individuals. In the experiences given, do you not consider the fact that the attacker is perhaps slower and not quite as centered due to the drinking? Were the officer's responses different from what would have been if the attack came faster and harder from a sober person? I would surmise so..... I would further surmise the damage to the attacker would be considerably more as well...

It's all theory until you're in the middle of it. Then of course, it's too late to worry about it!

Regards,

Mongo

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Old 07-26-2000, 11:47 PM   #14
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Re: It's all theory anyway

Quote:
Mongo wrote:
What anyone would, or would not do is merely theory in any of these discussions. You may well have great morals and good intentions, but the situation itself will determine the final outcome.

Also, there is a huge difference between dealing with drunks and dealing with all out crazy or drug induced individuals. In the experiences given, do you not consider the fact that the attacker is perhaps slower and not quite as centered due to the drinking? Were the officer's responses different from what would have been if the attack came faster and harder from a sober person? I would surmise so..... I would further surmise the damage to the attacker would be considerably more as well...

It's all theory until you're in the middle of it. Then of course, it's too late to worry about it!

Regards,

Mongo

The idea that it is all theory anyway simply isn't true. Untrained people may react in very different ways when put under stress. But the whole idea of military and police training is to make the training as close to the real situation for which you are preparing as possible. Then you do as much training as you can. If you have structired the training properly the student will respond in reality as he was trained to do, bypassing a lot of the conscious and even unconscious responses, and substituting automatioc reaction. The problem with most training programs is that they don't closely resemble the real thing. That is especially true of Aikido which has a very controlled method of training that does little to prepare the student for the down and dirty reality of the street. When we do training for the police we utilize the same armored assailants that the model mugging people use. The cops who have done the training have commented that it was the closest thing to being on the street and being scared that they ever encountered in training. The skills that we were imprinting in that training were exactly what later came when they hit the real situations out on the street. If the training is structired correctly it is quite possible to train most individuals to act fairly automatically. The more complex the level of the skills you are traiing the more amount of time it takes to do it.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-27-2000, 07:09 AM   #15
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Re: Re: It's all theory anyway

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:

The idea that it is all theory anyway simply isn't true. Untrained people may react in very different ways when put under stress. But the whole idea of military and police training is to make the training as close to the real situation for which you are preparing as possible. Then you do as much training as you can. If you have structired the training properly the student will respond in reality as he was trained to do, bypassing a lot of the conscious and even unconscious responses, and substituting automatioc reaction. The problem with most training programs is that they don't closely resemble the real thing. That is especially true of Aikido which has a very controlled method of training that does little to prepare the student for the down and dirty reality of the street. When we do training for the police we utilize the same armored assailants that the model mugging people use. The cops who have done the training have commented that it was the closest thing to being on the street and being scared that they ever encountered in training. The skills that we were imprinting in that training were exactly what later came when they hit the real situations out on the street. If the training is structired correctly it is quite possible to train most individuals to act fairly automatically. The more complex the level of the skills you are traiing the more amount of time it takes to do it. [/b]
Ledyard sensei,

I was not referring to the reaction of a trained or untrained individual. Obviously we train to have the proper response when attacked. What I was referring to is the degree of physical damage you will do to the attacker. You cannot predict this as you cannot predetermine the severity of the attack. It's simply not possible. Even in the best training environment, the trainee goes in knowing you're not really going to kill them. Unfortunatley, that level of experience can only be obtained on the streets, in the prisons or in war.

Your intention may be to control the situation and save the attacker by executing techniques you've learned, but attack and defense is a purely dynamic interaction with an unpredictable outcome. Therefore, any thoughts regarding intention or outcome, prior to the actual interaction, IS theory.

Regards,

Dan Pokorny
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Old 07-28-2000, 06:55 AM   #16
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It's a matter of situation for me. If someone attacks me and I can put an end to it with a minimum of damage, that's how it will be. But if it's a situation where I don't think it can be resolved in that way, or I feel my life is threatened. I would not hesitate to take someones eye, break their arm or do whatever I had to do to survive. My life is more valuable than anyone who thinks so little of others that they would try to harm or kill them. The same holds true for family or friends who are threatened in a similar manner or can't defend themselves. provided it's not something they brought on themselves.
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Old 07-30-2000, 10:28 AM   #17
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The reason that I take aikido with such fervor, other than that it is a wonderful graceful and compelling art, is so that I DON'T need to utilize blinding or instantly bone breaking atemi. I took a watered down form of Tae Kwon Doe for quite some time, and I think that despite my lack of flexibility, I can probably still make some pretty nasty kicks to an attacker's knees and general lower regions- but if I know aikido, then I can deal with an attacker without maiming them, or possibly even injuring then(well, if I knew a few more osae waza...I'd probably just have to throw them, but that doesn't hurt nearly as much as a broken knee) But the point is, I wish to train myself to be able to subdue my attacker with no harm to them or myself.



PS- I see a lot of police officers posting here, and though this is highly off topic, I would like to note that the level of force I see used against protestors(Many of them trained specifically in being peaceful, and sadly they must also train in being beaten by police officers) is vastly higher than the level of force used by said protestors. Pepper spraying a bunch of people who are simply sitting down is not an equal use of force, and highly unaikido. Perhaps in the courses mentioned by some officers there could be a little bit on aikido spirituality. Many protestors are treated much worse than violent offenders who willingingly and forthrightly attack police.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rank, but I think it does apply to aikido spirituality. And my friend was recently rather injured in a protest- he made no violent moves, and was simply marching down a street. Thanks for bearing with me.

PPS- Please don't misconstrue this as accusing- I realize that not every police officer is out there beating protestors(though there were 800 police versus 100 protestors at the latest rally hear in Mpls,MN), but I'm sure you have some fellow officers who do draw such duty, and you can at least attempt to make a difference in their mindset. Again, thanks.

Alex Magidow
3 months of aikido and still going.

[Edited by Axiom on July 30, 2000 at 10:31am]

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Old 08-01-2000, 04:56 PM   #18
Frankk
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Ai symbol Prediction and it is all theory

Sorry Mongo, gotta disagree with you here. If it was all theory and dynamic as you say, even with just the simple application of force to defend against an attack, then all of our (Western and Eastern civ.) combat training and tradition has been for naught. Actually it is quite the opposite. Combat theory and behaviors have been quite well developed over the past 3000 years. The well trained person (be they martial artist, policeman, seal, marine)knows exactly how much force (with many variables) they want to exert in any given situation(with more variables). And likewise, we know that a person will attack in a certain fashion with an x amount of force with pretty easily recognizable variables.
And as for never being able to get that sort of training except in war, streets or prison, that also is not entirely true. There are types of training that do a pretty good job of mimicking combat stress.
Frankk
PS Lets continue on and talk about examples
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Old 08-02-2000, 03:23 AM   #19
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Ai symbol All of this and something else too ...

Well. This is my first post and here goes. It is only a little of the current topic in this forum but I would have fitted in somewhere earlier I guess.

I live in SA and for all of SA being a beutiful place to live in we live in a very dangerous society. People are killed daily. Thing is: In America if someone is killed CNN will be full of it. (We get CNN here too ) If someone here is killed it is another reason to leave the country and precious little else. Nobody mentions it or thinks about it if that person wasn't direct family. It will probably be on some paper's third page or something...

For me this is terrible and yet a real reality. So. Being the peacefull guy I try to be I do Aikido. The other day though we had a story in the news of a person that was about to be robbed (read robbed and killed) and through having done "a" martial art he defended himself and the attacker got injured. Only injured. The defender was held at gun-point and yet he only injured the attacker. I have doubts sometimes about if I would have been able to not kill that person or injure him SERIOUSLY. (The current poll is like a scene from a nightmare )

Yet this defender was not congratulated for saving his pregnant wife or for stopping a crime OR for helping in getting a criminal in jail. No. This attacker was released almost immediately and the defender was sent to jail for "man-slaughter with intent to injure seriously"

This filled me with a lot of emotions. I don't really know what place Aikido can have in a society like this. Actually Im sure it serves excellent in this context yet I feel more than a little depressed about this. How would you all have handled this situation?

Pieter Breed
Stellenbosch South Africa

PS - Maybe I should add that I usually wear I smile and wave to people that I don't know with a stupid looking grin on my face ...

"And in the Darkness of your eyes a
star is born..."
unknown (to me)

Pieter Breed
Stellenbosch University
South Africa
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Old 08-02-2000, 08:52 AM   #20
Guest5678
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 135
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Re: Prediction and it is all theory

Quote:
Frankk wrote:
Sorry Mongo, gotta disagree with you here. If it was all theory and dynamic as you say, even with just the simple application of force to defend against an attack, then all of our (Western and Eastern civ.) combat training and tradition has been for naught. Actually it is quite the opposite. Combat theory and behaviors have been quite well developed over the past 3000 years. The well trained person (be they martial artist, policeman, seal, marine)knows exactly how much force (with many variables) they want to exert in any given situation(with more variables). And likewise, we know that a person will attack in a certain fashion with an x amount of force with pretty easily recognizable variables.
And as for never being able to get that sort of training except in war, streets or prison, that also is not entirely true. There are types of training that do a pretty good job of mimicking combat stress.
Frankk
PS Lets continue on and talk about examples
Frankk,

That's the great thing about these forums, we get to hear different views on these subjects! Combat training, and the like is NEVER for naught. I would like to make MY view on this very clear. I truly believe in training, a lot! However, I also believe that we cannot predict or predetermine the reaction or interaction of engagement, regardless of the hours spent training. To have THAT ability is a fallacy of those that have not been in that kind of situation. Hopefully our training covers most possible responses, but there is no way to know for sure exactly what an opponent will do. Their responses will be based on their experience and skill, therefore you cannot predict the outcome. They may be more skilled than you or they may not. It's that simple.

A somewhat civilized example would be that you engage and somehow get the advantage with the person on the ground. Your "goal" at this point might be to just pin them there until they cool down or you might decide to put them to sleep, you happen to leave an opening and they stick a finger in your eye. Guess what, your "goal" will now probably change and I do believe it would be considered quite dynamic.........see what I mean?

In regard to "mimicking combat stress" yes, I will agree there are programs that do this well, however, the fact is that the trainee is entering the training program knowing they will not actually be killed. This creates a completely different mindset and environment than that of one where the person realizes that just one mistake could actually end their life, like say a prison guard working death row, or the police in some of the more "unpleasant" big city areas, or the military in combat. These all contain the reality of possible death. Either the element of death is there or it isn't, there is no halfway..........

Regards,

Dan Pokorny
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Old 08-02-2000, 05:34 PM   #21
Frankk
Dojo: Atlantic Martial Arts, Tomiki and JAA dojo
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 9
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Talking Training Reality

Being that I am a bit short on time at the moment, I am only going to reply to the training part of my argument. In the combat training that I am talking about, you CAN get killed in the training and people have died. Therefore it is realistic. Specifically I am talking about advanced military training, either recon marines, SEAL, Special Forces or any folks of other nationalities who do this type of stuff. Now I am not familiar with the statistics of SWAT live fire room clearing training but I would bet that someone has died in it also. Remember people have died also in martial arts training. I can think of examples in both Iaido and jujutsu. SO, death is always just around the corner in our training. It is up to us to perceive that danger, if we dont we are meat for evolution. We just have a tendency to forget this in the "tender and peaceful" art of aikido. A little later I will blow out my opinion on combat variables.
Frankk
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Old 08-03-2000, 06:47 AM   #22
Guest5678
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 135
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Re: Training Reality

Quote:
Frankk wrote:
Being that I am a bit short on time at the moment, I am only going to reply to the training part of my argument. In the combat training that I am talking about, you CAN get killed in the training and people have died. Therefore it is realistic. Specifically I am talking about advanced military training, either recon marines, SEAL, Special Forces or any folks of other nationalities who do this type of stuff. Now I am not familiar with the statistics of SWAT live fire room clearing training but I would bet that someone has died in it also. Remember people have died also in martial arts training. I can think of examples in both Iaido and jujutsu. SO, death is always just around the corner in our training. It is up to us to perceive that danger, if we dont we are meat for evolution. We just have a tendency to forget this in the "tender and peaceful" art of aikido. A little later I will blow out my opinion on combat variables.
Frankk
Frankk,

I see your point. People do get killed while training, however all of your examples serve to reinforce the statement I made earlier, that you cannot predict the outcome of an engagement --even in training.

Also, I would call to your attention that there is a vast difference in an accidental death and an intended death. True, dead is dead regardless of how it happened but I doubt seriously that is was the intent of the training program to kill it's students. That only happens with time. Time is a great teacher, unfortunately it kills ALL of it's students.

You also stated that "SO, death is always just around the corner in our training" I agree, but one must also realize it's around the corner in life period. Training is a part of our life so it is also subject to that element. We assume that risk not only when we train but every time we get on a plane or get behind the wheel of a car etc...... and although I believe it is vastly different from having someone actually trying to take your life, the fact still remains that you cannot predict either situation. We can only plot strategies, review logistics, train for theoretical situations based on past experiences, but even with all that preparation, until we actually engage, we have no clue as to how a situation will end.

If you can concieve of a method for predetermining the outcome of an event please let me know, for there are a few horse races we could attend or perhaps we could get together in Vegas!

Regards,
Dan Pokorny
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