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Old 05-18-2006, 11:05 AM   #26
David Orange
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
This is from their website: "Real aikido is first and only Serbian ultimate fighting and self-defense martial arts. Real Aikido is efficient, widely applicable self-defense skill, derived from traditional aikido and jujitsu. The founder of Real Aikido is Grand Master Ljubomir Vracarevic, holder of the black belt, 10th Dan, professor of Real Aikido and Ju-jitsu.
His 10th dan is from the American Martial Arts Hall of Fame or some such. Maybe he's a good godan or so. The rest is wishful thinking approved by The American Martial Arts Hall of Fame.

(I have been personally acquainted with two Japanese judans in my life. The first took 65 years of training with THE TOP experts in Japan, including being uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba. The second was his student and it took him from about 1950 to about 2002 to reach judan. You may draw your own conclusions.)

Last edited by David Orange : 05-18-2006 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 05-18-2006, 11:31 AM   #27
Don_Modesto
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
(I have been personally acquainted with two Japanese judans in my life. The first took 65 years of training with THE TOP experts in Japan, including being uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba. The second was his student and it took him from about 1950 to about 2002 to reach judan. You may draw your own conclusions.)
Tohei was in his 30's, right?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-18-2006, 06:56 PM   #28
nmrmak
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Re: Real aikido question

I am not very familiar with real aikido, but i know for sure that it's a little bit of a mistake in translation calling it "real" aikido. In serbian (the guy who made it and named is a serb), it's called "realni" aikido, and that word means "something that is real/realistic" (Edited to add: perhaps it could be translated as "in reality aikido"?).
I'm sure there are people here who actually train in real aikido, so they can correct me if i'm wrong hereL:
Real aikido is a blend of several martial arts. A big part of the techniques are taken from aikido, and tweaked a little so they can be more applicable in a street fight. The techniques are harder, and aren't as "flowing" as in aikikai. Also, the posture is a little different and tai sabaki isn't as wide as in aikikai. The pins look more painful, definitely. All the moves are quicker and shorter than in aikikai, and the people i've seen do real aikido look stiffer than folks in my dojo (but then again, i've only ever seen 2 or 3 people practicing). Actually, i've watched one of their trainings a long time ago, but all they've done that time were evasion techniques (moving in a group of people, trying not to collide). Seems to me that mr. Vracarevic has taken out the spiritual aspect out of his version of aikido and has tried to make it as straightforward and practical as possible.

Now I'd just like to add that real aikido is different than other styles, and i'm not sure if it's "aikido" at all. Maybe it's just a new martial art that just mentions aikido in it's name and has a few techniques in common with "traditional" aikido. No matter how good/bad you think it is, i've seen it work, and my very close friend used to train it; it saved his life once when he was attacked by a guy with a gun. He was confident enough (imo he was crazy enough too), and the attacker ended on the floor with his trigger finger broken. Turned out the gun was fake, and he just wanted to steal my friend's bicycle.
Still, my friend learned some nasty tricks on his trainings that are very applicable on the street, just like that one. It is a little bit like aikido mixed with the void element in ninjutsu (some of you might know what i'm referring to here).

Excuse my poor English and any spelling mistakes as English isn't my native language.
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:24 PM   #29
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Thanks for the explaination.

I think as martial arts evolve and we are getting more into the whole concept of MMA and as that matures, we will see much more crossover like this.

I suspect in about 10 years, I see myself teaching a "blended art" that is based on BJJ, aikido, and muay thai. I don't know what I would call it, as you could say all of it was BJJ, or all of it was a form of aikido. Not sure.

I think it is a good thing when we have people that can synthesize things, distill it, re-interpret and offer it to others. THat is, as long as the underlying principles are correct.
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Old 05-19-2006, 02:40 AM   #30
nmrmak
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Re: Real aikido question

That's a tricky one. I'd prefer to study aikido, BJJ and judo for example, but as separate arts, because that's the only way to grasp the underlaying principles imho. Of course, one could develop a customized art to suit their needs based on those arts, but that wouldn't stop me from training in those arts separately and accepting them as they are, with all thier pros and cons.
It takes a lot of time and dedication to grasp the essence of aikido. Imagine trying to grasp essences of several arts at the same time...
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:02 PM   #31
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Real aikido question

Are you talking about these people?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOlPBpMPZ3g
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:15 PM   #32
nmrmak
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Re: Real aikido question

Judging by the looks of it, yes. But i don't know any of them in person.
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:34 PM   #33
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Real aikido question

He can make himself whatever rank he wants in his "Real Aikido" but this isn't a rank that anyone serious in the conventional Aikido community will recognize.

His website has all sorts of photos from his Hall of Fame award ceremony. I get info from these guys periodically. If I pay $175 approx. per award, I too can be a Hall of Fame member. In other words, he pays for the award. These guys come into a city, rent space at some ball room not too far from the airport, hold a black tie awards dinner for anyone willing to pay (you should see the list of categories in which you can can get an award - if you want to spend the money).

No one of any integrity at all would participate in this kind of operation. It is strictly for self promoters, insecure about their own legitimacy.

I noticed that Russell McCartney was in one of the photos from the same awards ceremony. Look on E-Budo for info...

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:56 PM   #34
David Orange
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Tohei was in his 30's, right?
No, I never met Tohei Sensei. I'm speaking of Minoru Mochizuki, who was awarded 10th dan in 1978 or so, by recommendation of IMAF and with the approval of Kisshomaru Ueshiba, at the age of about 73.

The other was Mochizuki Sensei's earliest student, Kyoichi Murai, who was made judan after Mochizuki Sensei's death. Murai sensei was about 90 years old when he made tenth dan.

As for Koichi Tohei, I understood that he was, yes, in his 30s when O Sensei promoted him to judan.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point.

Best wishes.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 05-19-2006 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Signature
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Old 05-19-2006, 01:43 PM   #35
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Are you talking about these people?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOlPBpMPZ3g
Huh.. looked like a portion of a mediocre shodan test... The uke wasn't bad for an Aikido uke, although it seemed like his aim point on the baton shomen was bad, and I thought all of their pins were pretty horrible.
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Old 05-19-2006, 05:31 PM   #36
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Real aikido question

I checked the site a little,

Ending a technique with atemi is normal in other Budo ,
but in the kind of Aikido I've been taught so far it is a big no-no,
Atemi should come first and be an option to determine the situation.
Ending techniques with atemi is violence or Budo - not Aikido.

Otherwise the level seems OK
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Old 05-20-2006, 07:10 AM   #37
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Christian Boddum wrote:
Ending techniques with atemi is violence or Budo - not Aikido.
Reading that i understand that under your point of view Aikido is not Budo.

Can you ellaborate please?
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Old 05-20-2006, 08:42 AM   #38
Raptus
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Re: Real aikido question

Yes, that is one of the Real aikido people. Nebojsa, he's holding a club in Novi Sad, I'll give you a link to visit if you want.

Last edited by Raptus : 05-20-2006 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 05-20-2006, 09:41 AM   #39
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Reading that i understand that under your point of view Aikido is not Budo.

Can you ellaborate please?
Yes -

Aikido is Budo - it is Aiki Budo

I read somewhere Osensei stated that Aikido should
be the martial art that ends the need for traditional Budo -
or something to that effect.

Budo is generally a way to perfect the individual -
Aikido is way to perfect the world.

This is my understanding - I can be grossly wrong

Aikido begins at the end of all Budo as I see it.

So any Budo can lead to the door of Aiki - but in order to become
Aiki ,the techniques must change to the principle of Aiki -
as Osensei did them.

Will this do ?

Last edited by ChristianBoddum : 05-20-2006 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 05-20-2006, 11:14 AM   #40
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Christian Boddum wrote:
Yes -

Aikido is Budo - it is Aiki Budo

I read somewhere Osensei stated that Aikido should
be the martial art that ends the need for traditional Budo -
or something to that effect.

Budo is generally a way to perfect the individual -
Aikido is way to perfect the world.

This is my understanding - I can be grossly wrong

Aikido begins at the end of all Budo as I see it.

So any Budo can lead to the door of Aiki - but in order to become
Aiki ,the techniques must change to the principle of Aiki -
as Osensei did them.

Will this do ?
So why did Ueshiba end many techniques with atemi?

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 05-20-2006, 11:34 AM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Real aikido question

Thanks for your explanation Mr. Boddum.

I think now i understand, but disagree with, your point of view.

Imho the world is perfect as it is, i don't think in Aikido as a way to "perfect" the world, but as a way to take out the inner-veils that don't allow us to see its perfection.

The Budo in Aikido is needed to help taking out said inner-veils.

And, of course, i can be even more wrong than you

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-20-2006 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 05-20-2006, 11:53 AM   #42
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
So why did Ueshiba end many techniques with atemi?
I don't know that he did !?!
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Old 05-20-2006, 01:01 PM   #43
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Christian Boddum wrote:
I don't know that he did !?!
Check out Budo, his 1938 self-published manual (translated in an English edition by John Stevens; available at Amazon) and/or Morihiro Saito's Takemusu Aikido Special Edition: Budo, Saito's bilingual commentary on the manual (available at Aikido Journal).

Also check out the Morihei Ueshiba & Aikido videos.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 05-20-2006, 01:22 PM   #44
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
Check out Budo, his 1938 self-published manual (translated in an English edition by John Stevens; available at Amazon) and/or Morihiro Saito's Takemusu Aikido Special Edition: Budo, Saito's bilingual commentary on the manual (available at Aikido Journal).

Also check out the Morihei Ueshiba & Aikido videos.
I have watched a lot of videos of Osensei , I have 7 ,that I have watched from time to time since '95, I will watch again,
you always learn something

Any video / technique in particular ?

I don't watch the videos as often as I used to ,
also I train in Nishio style,so I try to keep up with
my current senseis and and only watch videos for inspiration,
and not so much for technique.
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Old 05-20-2006, 01:36 PM   #45
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Real aikido question

OK maybe I should be clearer,

Applying atemi to a pinned opponent - is violent to me
In iaido you have Todome - which means finishing off your opponent
(instead of having him bleed to death - Todome is being "merciful")
This should never be nescssesary if we take control at first.

In Aiki toho iai - technique nr. 14 is Todome - and there definitly
is the finishing off in the end, BUT, I think this is rooted in
the earlier iaido from which it came,it has never been fully explained
to me yet !

In Aiki toho iai - the aim of using the sword is to control your opponent,not kill him,
if I kill my opponent then it may still be Budo - but not Aikido.
He can not learn from his mistakes if he is dead !

To attack is wrong - to be attacked is wrong too !

Last edited by ChristianBoddum : 05-20-2006 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 05-21-2006, 06:49 AM   #46
Raptus
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Re: Real aikido question

Actually, the atemi at the end of the technique is not an attack, it is simply to emphasize that you have full control of your opponent. Nothing more, nothing less
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:47 AM   #47
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Real aikido question

OK !

That is also what I see from Osensei , like you control your uke with your sword.

- Zanshin.

Then I have no problem with it !
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Old 05-21-2006, 12:44 PM   #48
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Milos Savic wrote:
Actually, the atemi at the end of the technique is not an attack, it is simply to emphasize that you have full control of your opponent. Nothing more, nothing less
Guys, this simply isn't the case. Aikido was never an "empty hand" art... its antecedents were arts utilized for combat by the samurai. The samurai had very little use for an "empty hand" art. Their entire world revolved around weapons.

All of the techniques and movements we use in Aikido assume. at a fundamental level, that both parties are armed. This is the source of all this ridiculous discussion about MMA/ BJJ vs Aikido and the belief that Aikido doesn't work...

The techniques of Aikido are primarily concerned with a) weapons retention b) close quarters encounters when you are surprised and can't access your long weapon and c) the rare occasion when one is disarmed and is facing the armed opponent (and even then the techniques would allow you to access the opponent's weapon)

This is why there is so little "submission" technique in Aikido. Many of the pinning techniques were not designed to force an opponent to "tap out" but rather to put him in a position in which you had time to access your back-up weapon (or his own weapon) and finish him. Many of the the throws were simply designed to unbalance and drop an opponent so that you could draw your sword and cut him, not submit him as in sport jiu jutsu.

This is why O-Sensei, and the folks that trained with him before the War, tend to do that strike at the end of technique. It is the symbolic finishing blow. In real combat it would be a weapon, just as most of our strikes are stylized weapons techniques.

Rather than see what is clearly a strike and then try to square that with some simplistic view of O-Sensei's views on peace and harmony, which in the West are based on a very simplistic presentation of his ideas (largely put together by Arikawa, Osawa, and the Nidai Doshu for post war Western consumption), why don't we try to see what is really there and reassess what we thought we knew about how O-Sensei thought about these ideas.

I have a very hard time with the folks who water down what we are doing to fit their own pre-conceptions. It's a strike. It's a strike done after the control is applied. It's there in many films of the Founder and it's there in the styles of Aikido which were started by people who had done their training primarily with him (as opposed to the post-war students who trained with a variety of teachers as well as the Founder). Why not rethink your own ideas rather than ignore what is clearly there.

This is very much like the folks that decide to call their bokken a "stick" because they think the sword is violent. I know teachers of the art who do that. Well, it's a sword. It may be a "practice" sword but it is still meant to be a sword. If you start thinking of it as a "stick" you lose almost all the benefit of practicing with the weapon. It's a sword and it is a weapon.... now how do you square that with O-Sensei's spiritual and philosophical views?

With the release of the Da Vinci code new interest is being kindled in what original Christianity may have been like. It's a fact that what the earliest Christians believed and practiced was far more varied than what we inherited.

If one looks at what has happened to the Founder's spiritual and martial system in just a few years since his death in 1969, with writings, videos, and access to direct students who are still teaching, it's easy to see that what came down to us as orthodox Christianity may have had little to do with what Christ actually taught or his followers actually did when they studied with him.

I think that O-Sensei should be the "source" for what we strive to understand in our practice. I think that it is ridiculous to look at what he did and retool it to fit some idea we "want" to believe in. That's just some kind of watered down, feel good, spirituality. Look at what he wrote. Look at what he did. Study other arts that relate to give your training context. Then try to understand what he meant by it all. But to ignore what is right there in front of you to fit preconceptions which are themselves based on the 30 or 35 pages of writings handed down to us from the Founder (most of which were highly edited by others to present a certain point of view) just widens the gap between what we are doing and what the Founder taught.

I think that Aikido is an "endangered species" as Patrick Auge Sensei stated about the teachings he received from Mochizuki Sensei. We need to take advantage of the fact that there are teachers still alive who trained directly with the Founder. We need to understand as much as we can about the Founder's ideas and how he trained and what he chose to teach. Most of the Aikido being done today has little to do with what the Founder himself presented. But we will not do anything but accelerate the "drift" from what he originally created if we engage in wishful thinking Aikido. This is crucially important! In just a very few years there will be no more people who trained directly with the Founder. I shudder to think what is going to happen to the art when that happens.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 05-21-2006 at 12:53 PM.

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Old 05-21-2006, 01:50 PM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Real aikido question

George,

Seeing as we no longer carry swords or have the same societal issues that the samurai had, might it be hard for us in modern society to relate or concieve of the things that O'sensei was trying to convey. Also, most of us are probably learning 3rd or 4th Generation away from O'Sensei these days...so how might that impact interpretation or conception as well.

Also, might it need to evolve to be re-interpreted into something that our society today might find more useful or be able to relate to?

I see very little distinction between the basis of aikido and BJJ, what I find intriguing is that BJJ to many, is a breath of fresh air as it presents many skills that are somewhat useful to a modern society.

The downside of BJJ I believe is that the way it is practiced by most is that it technique/submission focused, not so much on the philosophical aspect, or mental, spiritual aspects. Many feel that these things will come as the art matures and practicioners age etc.

Might many of the techniques of aikido be threatened to be extinct or become dead as they become interpreted more and more incorrectly, or modified to fit a model that best suits our society today?

Could it be that aikido might be relegated to the same category as Society of Creative Anachronism (SCA), if we only practiced it as a historically correct art, and did not re-interpret it?

I don't necessarily think these things...but thoughts that came to mind as I read your post, which btw, I mostly agree with!
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Old 05-21-2006, 05:54 PM   #50
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Real aikido question

George ,

I don't think we disagree , but in the almost 11 years of training i Nishio style Aikido,
I have been taught to have atemi present in all aspects of a technique,and the Way it was taught by Nishio sensei probably was done in a more subtle way,I can only guess.
Nishio sensei made a distinction between OYO - application / real situation
to training in the dojo .
If there is too much focus on showing control vs. having control , training introduces fear,
or the climate in the dojo becomes to anxious - for lack of a better word.

Second - Osensei didn't leave us perfect Aikido, we must constantly try to reinvent to the best of our ability.I know that Nishio sensei changed and changed by constant analysis ,and now that he is no longer here ,unfortunately, we must find new ways again, from what we have understood and not understood.

Takemusu Aiki - isn't that what we are aiming for,
I know I train in Aikido ,but also that I am not doing Aikido yet.
I am very much the grasshopper still !
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