Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Weapons

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-22-2006, 02:25 AM   #51
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

[quote=Michael O'Brien]Back to topic a little bit, that is if we are done with sword wielding maniacs locked in mortal combat with guys going apesh!t with heavy household appliances. LOLQUOTE]

Let a bunch of Brits in on the proceedings and things go downhill from there!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2006, 05:47 AM   #52
Gabriella Wrigholm
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
Sweden
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
Back to topic a little bit
So several people have answered that beginners should practice suburi, which is logical. But how much suburi do you think beginners should practice before they start with lets say for example jo dori or tachi dori? One or two classes or maybe two months? Though it probably depends a lot on the individual too of course.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2006, 06:39 AM   #53
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

If "Jo-dori" and "tachi dori" mean Randori with Jo or Bokken. And By Randori you mean free-play with both sides attacking and defending freely, then I believe you are skipping a few stages here:
After Suburi, one should learn basic paired exercises (Kata), just like we do with un-armed Aikido.
Randori should start after a while of this, when one can perform a pre-ordained multi-attack paired exercise with reasonable control and accuracy. This normally takes ~1/2 a year or so. Even then, one should start with simpler variation (only one side attacks, the other defends, going up to allowing the other to counter ...)

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2006, 07:15 AM   #54
Gabriella Wrigholm
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
Sweden
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
If "Jo-dori" and "tachi dori" mean Randori with Jo or Bokken. And By Randori you mean free-play with both sides attacking and defending freely, then I believe you are skipping a few stages here:
After Suburi, one should learn basic paired exercises (Kata), just like we do with un-armed Aikido.
Randori should start after a while of this, when one can perform a pre-ordained multi-attack paired exercise with reasonable control and accuracy. This normally takes ~1/2 a year or so. Even then, one should start with simpler variation (only one side attacks, the other defends, going up to allowing the other to counter ...)

Amir
Oops sorry I didn't mean "jo dori" I meant kumi jo and kumi tachi. =) Or like you said "kata". Of course that's the next step after suburi.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2006, 07:40 AM   #55
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Jo-dori and tachi-dori don't mean "randori with jo/tachi". They are techniques against an armed opponent. The "dori" here is "tori", "take, (the same as in morotetori, katatetori), and refers to jo- and sword-taking techniques.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2006, 10:44 AM   #56
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

I think, after a student can fall safely, they should be let into a general class that allows them to practice with everyone else. This means saburi, Kata, Awasi, Kumijo, Kumitachi, Jo dori, Jo nage, Tachi dori, etc etc.

-Chris Hein
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2006, 03:03 AM   #57
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

I think all should be taught from the beggining.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2006, 05:13 AM   #58
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
England
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

the bokken is meant to be thought of a an extension of the arm, you let your ki flow through it too. so why not let everyone use them from the start

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2006, 03:34 PM   #59
spainki
 
spainki's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5
Spain
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Weapons training ever is necessary for your progress in aikido. One of the bases established by O´Sensei was the serious training with Jo, bokken, tanto... No are really weapons for us, are more, they are tools, instruments to know the body´s movements in attack and defense, at the end if you want the practice regular induce in you a "spiritual state" that gives you graet developement like a person. Good ki for alls. (And excuse my very poor inglish).
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2006, 01:05 PM   #60
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
That's not a true statement. Jiu jutsu is the study of the principal of Jiu, it can be taught (and is taught) with and without weapons.

-Chris Hein
When I refer to jj, I refer to the completely empty-handed portion, mostly based on grappling.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2006, 03:14 PM   #61
karim\\\
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23
Egypt
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
But don't do "reverse" breathing.

If you don't train breathing, you have more than 50% that it NEVER come to you.
thnx for the heads up man
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2006, 06:24 AM   #62
Ed Shockley
Dojo: aikikai of Philadelphia
Location: philadelphia
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 84
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Sorry for weighing in so late but Aiki-weapons is what I most enjoy. Both my sensei, Henry Smith(6th dan) and Nizan Taleb(5th dan) have come through schools that interpret Aikido as inseparable from Aiki-weapons. (Chiba Shihan and Icchimura shihan respectively) Taleb Sensei rarely demonstrates a technique without exploring it's interpretations ken v ken, ken v jo, jo v jo etc. Invariably different students get insights at different points in the process. It is the basic theory of multiple intelligences. More importantly, the organization of ones energy (musubi) is far clearer when holding a sword. The blade screams the absurdity of not focusing in the proper direction and adds enormous clarity when we return to open hand. I also have found that kata have helped identify weaknesses in my movement and balance. At our school we practice Saito's 20 jo suburi, 7 ken suburi, 7 awase ken and jo, innumerable variations of the 6 jo kata (including ken v jo), 13 jo kata, 22, 31 (you get the picture). Each teaches something different. Most importantly, we stress counter kata. Responding to a strike with the added energy of a weapon inspires self correction.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 11:43 AM   #63
Koren Ko
 
Koren Ko's Avatar
Dojo: Nihon Aikido Kenkyukai? Yoshikan style
Location: Penang
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 26
Malaysia
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
We start with Jo, and start teaching suburi (hit to head, then feet then zuki). We then go on to teaching practical Jo exercises (reaction of Jo weilder to attack with another Jo) and only then move on to Jo Kata (Korindo first Jo Kata has 7 parts)& Jo Tai-Sabaki and in parallel - Jo Randori. At some point during this process, the boken practice will be added to, going in the same flow.
Later, at BB level, we also practice Jo Vs Ken (Mostly by attention to the Kata, but we have done some Randori in the pathis way too). But at this stage, the number of weapon sand traditions (Koryu Kata origins) is growing rapidly.



Those who teach weapons from the start, use the weapons practice to teach movement.
One can expect to be slopy and weird when holding a weapon he is not famlir with (unless one is famlier with a similar weapon).


Amir

Hi there, I just wanna know, how long does it takes you to learn and accustomed with the basic weapon technique?

I mean, from the start of your weapon practice class until you had felt you can wield a bokken pretty ok.

Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 12:59 PM   #64
Amelia Smith
 
Amelia Smith's Avatar
Dojo: Martha's Vineyard Aikido Club
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 154
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Koren Ko Jen Foo wrote:
Hi there, I just wanna know, how long does it takes you to learn and accustomed with the basic weapon technique?

I mean, from the start of your weapon practice class until you had felt you can wield a bokken pretty ok.

Well. You do one or two bokken classes, and you feel like you're doing ok, because you know where the hands and feet go, and can do a shomen and a yokomen, and maybe one or two blocks. That's OK for a couple more classes, then it all falls apart as you try to work on the finer points. Then, if you're even the slightest bit dyslexic, you might suffer months of confusion doing kumitachi.

In my experience, feeling like you can do something "pretty ok" comes and goes in waves over the years. Looking at other people, someone who does frequent and regular (twice a week or so) weapons practice can get to a point of reasonable profficiency in a year or two. But, everyone is different.

--Amelia
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 01:11 PM   #65
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Given the mechanics and dynamics of aikido and how it works....even though we practice a bunch without weapons, it is a striking/cutting weapons based art. So, I believe you need to introduce weapons from the very beginning, otherwise it is difficult to understand aikido.

If we didn't have weapons, or assumed them away, we'd all be doing some form of BJJ, because it works better when there are no weapons....think about that!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 04:06 PM   #66
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Koren Ko Jen Foo wrote:
Hi there, I just wanna know, how long does it takes you to learn and accustomed with the basic weapon technique?

I mean, from the start of your weapon practice class until you had felt you can wield a bokken pretty ok.

Thanks!
The other thing that goes along with this is how much time do you spend with your weapons? Only in class when you train or outside class as well?

I had my instructor show me some drills for bokken and jo that I could work on outside of class and so I spend at least 30 minutes every day with either bokken or jo if not both.

Try to get your hand on the video Buki by Ikeda Sensei as well. It has some good drills in it that you can do alone.

Good luck and keep swinging those sticks around.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 07:05 AM   #67
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Koren Ko wrote:
Hi there, I just wanna know, how long does it takes you to learn and accustomed with the basic weapon technique?

I mean, from the start of your weapon practice class until you had felt you can wield a bokken pretty ok.

Thanks!
Quote:
Amelia Smith wrote:

Well. You do one or two bokken classes, and you feel like you're doing ok, because you know where the hands and feet go, and can do a shomen and a yokomen, and maybe one or two blocks. That's OK for a couple more classes, then it all falls apart as you try to work on the finer points. Then, if you're even the slightest bit dyslexic, you might suffer months of confusion doing kumitachi.

In my experience, feeling like you can do something "pretty ok" comes and goes in waves over the years. Looking at other people, someone who does frequent and regular (twice a week or so) weapons practice can get to a point of reasonable proficiency in a year or two. But, everyone is different.

--Amelia

As Amelia wrote. At first, you feel you learn the weapons very quickly, nothing complicated about it. As you advance, you realize you are barely touching a minimal level of skill. The more you practice and advanced you are, the more you feel your own misconceptions and unsatisfactory level.

I started practicing Jo as a beginner, in my first month (unusual in our club, most times sensei requires a couple of months to half a year, but somehow this is how it worked for me). After a year or so, I felt rather good, after a couple of years I was quite certain of my high skill level. Today, over 10 years afterwards I can point to a growing number of errors I have identified and trying to stop, and surely there are many more I have not found yet. And yes, I have practiced the Jo on my own in addition to classes, and I am much better then I once was.

As for the Bokken, I started rather late, after several years of practice. Further, I was introduced to a large number (over 4) of Koryu Kata too early in my study of the bokken. As a result, several years later, I am still sure I know nothing of correct handling of the bokken ( I know much more then I knew before, but still, hardly scratching the enormous size of things to learn).


Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 01:03 PM   #68
Suwariwazaman
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati
Location: Cincinnati
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

I am going back for my 4th kyu at what point do we start using Jo. I am practicing with bokken. Using Shomenuchi, and Yokominuchi.Is it ok that I start using tenchin, and tenkan too. Or do I just continue. We have done Happo Giri some. Is this right for someone at my level?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 04:29 PM   #69
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Jamie Julien wrote:
I am going back for my 4th kyu at what point do we start using Jo. I am practicing with bokken. Using Shomenuchi, and Yokominuchi.Is it ok that I start using tenchin, and tenkan too. Or do I just continue. We have done Happo Giri some. Is this right for someone at my level?
That might best be a question for your Sensei or check your organizations testing requirements.

We require bokken and jo techniques both starting with your 6th kyu test.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2006, 05:44 AM   #70
ze do telhado
Dojo: aikishurendojo
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 9
Portugal
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Karim Saladin wrote:
what does it mean to move ur hands from ur center not from ur shoulders or arms??
Hi Karim...I guess what they were trying to tell you is that when cutting the ken moves along a perpendicular line from the top of your head to your hara....as in all techniques... to be centered is fundamental...aikiken is diferent from kendo or kenjutsu...all the cuts are on a vertical line...if they start from your shoulders they become diagonal.
hope to have helped
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2006, 08:07 AM   #71
Suwariwazaman
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati
Location: Cincinnati
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

I will check into that. Also anyone know in tachi dori are you in seiza, or regular hanmi. can any technique in jo waza be done from seiza or hanzi dai or dou?. My appologies if I am saying this wrong Also does anyone know at what point you started jo-waza?4th kyu-3rd kyu?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2006, 11:17 AM   #72
Karen Wolek
Dojo: Kingston Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 322
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Jamie, it depends on your dojo. In my dojo, you can start taking the weapons class as soon as you start. (not your very first class, but you can take it for your second class, if you want) Our weapons classes consist of: Bokken and Jo Kata, Kumitachi, Kumi Jo, as well as unarmed defense against tanto, bokken and jo, and nage jo waza. May include both weapons and empty hand (tai-jutsu) practice.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2006, 01:12 PM   #73
Suwariwazaman
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati
Location: Cincinnati
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Thanks Karen! Just one more idiot question! Does it matter which weapon you start with, or does it again depend on the dojo, and does the USAF have a set criteria which you do first. 1 more if I may. What is the most fun, hardest? Just for a heads up!
Thanks again. I am going back for my first class tonight in 3 years. Regular class that is! Hope I dont trip over my hands! Thanks again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2006, 05:13 PM   #74
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Quote:
Jamie Julien wrote:
Thanks Karen! Just one more idiot question! Does it matter which weapon you start with, or does it again depend on the dojo, and does the USAF have a set criteria which you do first. 1 more if I may. What is the most fun, hardest? Just for a heads up!
Thanks again. I am going back for my first class tonight in 3 years. Regular class that is! Hope I dont trip over my hands! Thanks again.
Jamie,

Again it will probably be up to your particular dojo. When we are training Sensei will say "Get your bokken", "Get your jo", etc and that is what you are working then.

Different people find certain things easier, harder, etc so that will probably be up to you. I had done some katana work before when I was taking TKD so the basic bokken concepts weren't too hard for me but I know other people who have struggled with them. Of the two weapons though I do find jo work to be more just fun to practice though.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2006, 11:00 AM   #75
Suwariwazaman
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati
Location: Cincinnati
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Smile Re: weapon training for lower ranks

Thanks Michael, I appreciate your reply. I went back for my first class this week. It was great! Take it slow, one class at a time. We worked on some Bokken. Happo Giri, and Suburi Cuts. It was fun, and I feel good! Thanks for all the encouragement, and hope to see some of you in the furture. Thanks again Jamie
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beginners Retention Rates akiy Teaching 45 04-05-2006 11:13 PM
Weapon training music Amaranto Weapons 5 01-16-2006 12:24 PM
Does Budo require a sense of shame? senshincenter General 72 09-12-2005 02:06 PM
Training iai as a part of aikido Stefaan Six General 4 07-27-2005 06:20 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:40 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate