Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The "throat grab" takedown defense combined with bringing the legs closer to the attacker is certainly an interesting change.

I wouldn't want to try the "duck under the leg" kick defense though, I'd end up accidentally getting clocked in the head. I'll stick with a good old shin check for now.

Brian Cates wrote: So yes, I expect comments like "Wow, look how slowly that uke shot in' and 'Wow, look how long it took Seagal to do that technique.'

And "Wow, look how far away is uke starting the shoot" comments too?

Only trying to reach the 1000 post count

Come on! 1000!!!!!

all right guys! we have to establish some ground rules if we want to reach 1000.

1. You can't do what Mike Geery just did.
2. You can't bait, fish or troll (Jun will take care of that!)
3. You have to post something constructive and worthwhile, or wait until the newbie comes along and unbenownst to him/her...they fall into the "aikido doesn't work in a fight" spiderweb...and you respond with a constructive, articulate, and thoughtful response!

In other words...you must play by the rules of aikiweb!

Now that said...

as far as shooting goes...which btw...what we seem to be discussing here is closing distance. this is probably the biggest area I struggled with when starting BJJ with an aikido background.

In traditional aikido, we practice closing the distance in a much different way typically than you do in BJJ. For one, it is always assumed that weapons are a possibility. Two, we slow things down to a controlled one possible attack that is done with good form and fairly committed. (I did not say off balanced or telegraphed!). We typically also know from nage standpoint what the attack is going to be, unless it is randori....even then we still know alot about the situation.

In BJJ, you typically don't worry about the weapons. You don't know the attack. And it will be masked and hidden by feints and so forth.

All these factors play a great deal in the difference in dynamics of how Aikido and BJJ approach closing the distance.

There is no one right answer. I like aikido because it does a good job of positioning you to deal with a weapon. I also don't like it because it is not very realistic as applied in the dojo.

I like BJJ because you must deal with many, many variables. I also don't like it because we assume away some aspects alot such as weapons.

So, you will have arguments all day long from both sides about the right way to shoot. Or the validity of shooting as a technique. It really depends on the situation.

I would say that I believe if this is a concern of yours, that you should practice as many types of scenarios as you can both with weapons and without at both a slow, deliberate process as well as a fast resistive process...if you want to be well rounded!

Okay, there is my relevant content for the day!

Damn, Kevin that was harsh. For me, the one on one aspect of BJJ with the aspect of self defense (unarmed) and realistic (unarmed) fighting stands superior in technique and practice to aikido. It lacks severaly in weapons defense and against multiple attackers.

gotta play by the rules if ya want to keep the thread open!

It stands to reason I think about your observations. Aikido tends to focus on the principles and DO, while BJJ concentrates on the SU.

What I do with my Army Dudes is ensure that they have a good base in BJJ and then we work on weapons. We spend 3/4 of our time doing basic BJJ and then 1/4 of our time focusing on weapons and how that changes the dynamic of fighting.

I would not call my weapons work necessarily aikido, but that is my main background so it is essentially what I draw from to teach weapons.

Have you seen Helio Gracie's book? A good friend of mine from Miami sent a copy to me recently. I was really suprised to see that Helio focused on what he felt was being left out of BJJ. It was weapons and self defense oriented stuff...not the sport stuff.

I think BJJ schools, it seems have catered more to the sport aspect of BJJ. I do that too, mainly because that is what young soldiers want to train on, but we do a mixture of sport, weapons, etc.

Aikido methods of training are very good for developing good habits. I try and slow my guys down all the time during the technique phase and try and be more aiki in approach.

My good buddy Michael Neal will probably chime in here at some point, as I know he is very adamant about full speed randori and waza training. There is some truth to this if your goals are to be a good martial artist or fighter. However, in traditional aikido, I don't believe this is really the goal! We only have so much time! We all have to pick what is important to us!

Mike Geery wrote : " It ( BJJ ) lacks severaly in weapons defense and against multiple attackers."
Well, I'd say it lacks severely in defence against multiple attackers, since most BJJ tactics end up in a clinch of some sort, usually on the ground.
Against weapons however, in a superior clinch is possible the best place to be ...

More to be discussed about this, but personally in training against committed rapid agressive knife attacks I LIKE to get to a clinch with arm-control and strikes. A knife-wielding arm is very very hard to catch, and I feel it is not realistic to expect typically-practiced Aikido to work well against it.

I agree Michael. I actually have been toying with the concept of falling to the ground in a knife attack. The scenario is that you are walking past a guy on the side walk and he has a concealed knife and he lunges at you at striking range upon passing you.

My thoughts are that you don't have time to block or defend in the traditional sense, so you simply fall down in a guarded posture. You avoid the attack and in order for your attacker to attack again, he must come down to your level which essentially in most cases off balances him at which point you can clinch and pull him into the guard and wrestle the weapon.

You can also do this with a multiple opponent scenario too, but that requires that you fall down, use your first attacker to block, then recover come back up into the fighting stance, then you really are back into fairly traditional aikido randori at that point.

In my aikido training we never really addressed close quarters attacks too much. I personally believe that real attacks happen fast and usually the distance is closed before you even see the attack coming, so I like the clinch/MMA stuff for dealing with the attacker as I think it is fairly realistic.

the falling down technique and clinch are wonderful ways for you to establish your center, time, and distance.

You can even clinch, double under arm hook, go to a seat belt, or rear postion..which when you think about it really is iriminage at close quarters! Then you start your traditional randori once you have re-established your kamae and ma'ai.

We train extensively in knife. Knife work is among the fastest things one can do. There is very little dedication needed as in a punch. So the in-out- game (edge up) leaves room for very fluid interchanges that end up with the edge in all sorts of arterial places. If you train this way it leaves one to wonder why anyone would ever stand there and face one. If you face a guy who knows what he is doing you are going to get cut. Period. I think allot of stuff that is seen in various schools is imaginary due to the fact that most people don't train with knives. Further don't train with the ugliness of a knives attack/defense potential.
Example offered here: If you dumped on the ground and tried to clinch and I had the knife I would have no need to to a position where you make a clinch happen. Why do I need to go there? I'd just play you and keep cutting your legs or walk away. Or if for some reason if I HAD to go there I would do the same thing I would do to "pass" and continually cut or stab at your legs while sweeping you to get to your body and neck.
To clinch with a fellow with a knife means you get cut/stabbed repeatedly. Weapon work has a great mix of slices not just stabbing. An added benefit of knife is an oppoenets mindset- like a choke attempt. If the giuy is fixated on choking you his hands and mind are focused for a moment. You know what he is doing and what his needs are. You play him other ways. With knife there is potential to cause him to get fixated on the blade while you use his intent to go to other places.
It is a whole other mindset to train to accept you are going to get cut, ward off the knife, but not fixate on it, and attack the body.

When we train with wooden knives the bruises on all parts of the forearms, thighs, kidney area etc. bare testiment to the power offered in a slice or stab-yet they are in-out to tempo or multpile cuts a second. I've had people come in for a one day "basics" intensive class in knife and while they found it rewarding most agree-unless you had to save someone elses life ....walk away from a knife.
Cheers
Dan

Kevin, I have seen Helio's book. I can't tell you how many of the techniques I learned in aikido class! Yes, definitely BJJ focuses on SU. But I have also heard about Rickson's teaching focusing more on the DO aspect. I don't know if you have heard the same.

As far as full speed randori, have you ever had the opportunity to train with Larry Reynosa. I went from 8 years in ASU to work with Reynosa Sensei. There randori is completely different from what ASU and USAF does.

I have never felt comfortable in a clinch against a weapon. I would think what Dan Harden wrote would happen.

Never had any experience working with Rickson or known anyone directly. I think it would stand to reason at their level and age that you would kinda go that way. At 40 I probably have 10 years left of rolling hard with the young guys. I am already noticing that I do not have the reflexes that I once did, so I must be technically correct in my application.

I agree about the clinch stuff not being optimal. Knife attacks are not optimal! My point is premised by the fact that you simply don't have a choice, the attacker has already closed the distance and is attacking you. Yes, you are going to get cut more than likely. So, going to the ground in a open guard is not optimal, but a simply a measure to minimize immediate and imminent exposure.

It is hard to visualize or talk about....but you can go with it and ride him down. Remember, as Dan pointed out...he is also fixated on the blade so it becomes the point of his energy. This can become nikkyo, rolled around into omoplata. Again, all situational though for sure.

Again with a standing clinch. Not optimal, but if the distance is already closed, and your balance taken what options to you have? you can double underarm hook high limiting the slicing and stabbin g motions while you get a better position. You can go to a modified "seat belt" position keeping the knife away from you until you can get better control of it.

There is other things going on while clinching! I am not talking about the sophmore view of simply hugging him like a wrestling tournament. I am only talking about the basic principle of regaining control of your center and his.

Again, these are all situations that represent the worst case.

These represent situations as Dan describes were you are attacking the body and not fixating on the knife. I'd rather move into his center and attack his body (clinch) than to attempt to move out and gain distance. You think you get cut in the clinch, wait until you get about 1 foot from him on the way back out.

I am curious as to what options you guys might propose once vital distance has been closed? I know no other way other than the clinch as the primary means to control his body while re-centering, positioning and isolating the knife.

Dan wrote:

Example offered here: If you dumped on the ground and tried to clinch and I had the knife I would have no need to to a position where you make a clinch happen. Why do I need to go there? I'd just play you and keep cutting your legs or walk away. Or if for some reason if I HAD to go there I would do the same thing I would do to "pass" and continually cut or stab at your legs while sweeping you to get to your body and neck.

Why do you need to go there? Exactly my point. He won't unless he is not thinking clearly and is emotionally charged, fixated on the knife, (as you point out), and fully committed to the next attack. It happens!

Yea you will get your legs cut some. Again, it sucks...really I am sure it does. But better than catching it in the carotid, kidneys or other vital areas. Guys...this is not an optimal fighting position!

Passing the guard. If you have a good grasp of the guard. It is not as easy as you think to get around to a "side control". You are not simply laying there!!!! Most guys when they start BJJ don't really understand the dynamics of the guard. Newbs and outsiders think "Closed Guard". Guard is a transition position in my book...it is dynamic!

So, while he is trying to pass the guard (yes while trying to cut your legs that are typically moving rapidily through trousers), you have bought some time. You can use small kicks to keep him away and time his move backward to pass to a side sweep to stand back up in a balanced posture.

Guess what...you just bought back your distance!

Again, I can talk my way out of this all day long. This is the web, and we can armchair it all day long. It is simply a scenario...not perfect by any means.

I think it is slightly better than getting a knife repeatedly plunged into your carotid, chest, or kidneys from an overwhelming attack.

Actually from what I've seen, Aikido can be used in normal fights. I would tell how, but I can't pronounce let alone type what these moves are, but say someone ski's using a weapon, or Shomen stirke with a weapon, or yokeame strike. They can save your life.

Yup Nick, no doubt about it! these things will work.

Kevin wrote:

I think it is slightly better than getting a knife repeatedly plunged into your carotid, chest, or kidneys from an overwhelming attack.

I would think anything would be better than that!
I was just settling down for a small scan of the threads before I go to bed, and that little image is probably going to give me nightmares!

I think I'll go and pour myself a large scotch....( any excuse )

Boy, you guys really like to rough it up don't you.

Again, I can talk my way out of this all day long. This is the web, and we can armchair it all day long. It is simply a scenario...not perfect by any means.

I think it is slightly better than getting a knife repeatedly plunged into your carotid, chest, or kidneys from an overwhelming attack.


Hi Kev
Agreed. But I wasn't "armchairing" we train this way. As for Carotids and kidneys etc that I mentioned? Thats what slicing the legs arterials and connective tissue is for-to lead there.

Its just a view... but the last place on earth I would ever choose to be with a person who has a knife is on the ground- thats all.
Training with sticks is a great method as the cuts, bruises, contusions and sometimes fractures, make you very tactically aware of how vulnerable you really are. Two or three cuts a second coupled with good body awareness and a focused intent is allot for most men to handle.
Cheers
Dan

Dan,

I know you didn't mention chest, kidneys etc. That was my perspective on the scenario and was simply pointing out that the falling to the ground was to move down the continium to a "better" position than having that happen to you. It is all realitive to the situation.

Legs are less risky than the core. the Most vital Arteries on the legs are on the back of the knee, hamstrings, and on the front Femoral. On your front it is more difficult for someone to get to your vital arterial areas. They have to bend down and underhook to get to the back of the knee.

Again, we can argue all day long. It is realitive to situation and "what if"..so not perfect and only an "option" or perspective.

yea..no kidding...if I have a choice I wouldn't go to the ground either.

Guys that think BJJ guys "want" to fight from the ground have no experience in BJJ and really don't understand the dynamics of fighting. I was of this limited mindset myself several years ago!

I admit it is scary if you have rudimentary skills in ground fighting! Also, to re-interate...BJJ guys don't default to the ground by choice in a real fight...they simply are more efficient than those that refuse to accept this as a fact that it happens!

We train with Tasers on occasion. Much more effective and realistic than sticks...try it out if you haven't. Nothing like pain to get the message across to get out of the way and positive control of the situation!

Hey Nick...meant to add to my post last night...but ran out of time.

Yes the things you state will work. Aikido can build wonderful instincts for reacting appropriately to weapons attacks, especially baseball bats and long sticks where the attacker has some distance and is closing it using the weapon.

The dynamics of knife attacks are a little different sometimes, especially when the attacker uses STEALTH and CONCEALMENT to close distance. You don't realize the distance is closed until you are off balance and the attack is proceeding. So you have to respond tactically some how to regain distance.

I am not professing to know how to appropriately respond to this in any and all situations.

Yes, principles of aikido apply 100%, in my aikido experiences, we don't concentrate on worry about these scenarios because we are teaching principles and the tactical aspects of a real attack creates way too much "static" to convey appropriate and proper movement!

I hope I did not lead you to believe that aikido priniciples do not apply or are irrelevant...because they are relevant and work.

Good training!

There seems to be a consensus among the current posters on this thread (probably due to their personal interests and the fact that certain arts are the current fad) that increased practice in BJJ (and potentially MMA) would help people in Aikido to bring some of the things that are regarded as "important" back into Aikido that have "left", or are "leaving" it. Regardless of what I may think about that...

In the spirit of putting out a fire with gasoline (and doing my share to get us to that 1000 posts mark), I wanted to ask the following open-ended question: what about other arts, or other types of arts are we (as Aikidoka) on average missing out on the principles of? What about more Kendo, more Arnis, more Jodo, more Karate, more Taekwondo, more Tai chi, more Kung fu, etc.?

Not all of these things need to be external. Some of them can be internal. Maybe we should be playing more Go to train our minds. Maybe we should be playing Kim's game to train our memory.

Are the skills and principles of those arts all encompassed in Aikido (and BJJ, and MMA if you assume that a well rounded practitioner knows a little bit of those) currently or are they not deemed to teach anything "useful"? If one accepts the notion that all martial arts are good at at least one thing, don't these have something to contribute to Aikido that Aikido "lacks" or at least that its current practitioners neglect?

What are those, and which are more important for your training (now and in the future) and why? What's the hierarchy of their importance?

Just kicking the ball to start it rolling..
Rob

Hi Rob,

I'd say aikido is pretty good at aikido! It is designed as we practice it, IMHO, at ANV to convey the lessons that ASU, Saotome, and Jimmy want us to learn based on many, many years of trial area and discovery. Pretty complete if you ask me for what it's goals are.

So I'd say based on that, no there really is nothing that other arts could contribute to aikido as aikido is aikido. (circular logic that helps us to 1000)

Anyway. McDojo.

Sure all arts have something that they do right..even McDojos must have SOMETHING to contribute! to something.

TKD. It seems to take it's share of beatings. Nothing wrong with TKD. There is good TKD and bad TKD and it is judged based on a multitude of factors/perceptions. However there is ITF/WTF etc. that kinda serve as the "generally accepted principles" of TKD. So that is a measure of value.

MMA guys love to pick on TKD as not being a good art. It is not necesarly for MMA. Fueled by many McDojos out there that churn out 12 year old black belts who have neither the maturity, nor the experience to know the limitiations of their studies! So they fall prey to the immaturity and lack of life experience of many young MMA studs.

But even in TKD there is things that are relevant and good. I still have some awesome kicks from my TKD days!

It really depends on your goals of training. What might be good for you, may not be good for others. I certainly would not train in aikido or even the best TKD school if I was going into the UFC! Not the most efficient methodologies for training!

So how do you define "well rounded"? I think it depends on your perspective. I certainly might have more "experiences" than some aikido practicioners, however, when I step into our dojo in Arlington, I am not "well rounded" in aikido!

I can grasp the concepts of aikido at maybe a shodan level, I can write about them on the internet prolifically and sound like an expert...but in practice I am a 2nd Kyu. So "well rounded" is an interesting concept!

good discussion.

I have a theory that all martial arts originated from a single source martial art and the diversity is due to the cultural influence as the original martial art spread through the world.

What is the prize for the person who is the 1000th poster?

I am pretty well rounded.... at least at my midesection. . Sorry, can't help it.

Boon

P/s - Only 254 post to go.

Dave what do you base this theory on?

I think it is quite possible that they developed parallel. Same stimulus, incentive, but not from single source.

Certainly you could say that a large number of the chinese and japanese martial arts developed from the same source (Chinese emmissaries in Okinawa, etc.). However, lots of isolated communities seem to have come up with their own martial arts for their own reasons, such as Muay Thai etc. Somebody correct me if I'm talking garbage!

Dan Harden wrote: Again, I can talk my way out of this all day long. This is the web, and we can armchair it all day long. It is simply a scenario...not perfect by any means. I think it is slightly better than getting a knife repeatedly plunged into your carotid, chest, or kidneys from an overwhelming attack. Hi Kev Agreed. But I wasn't "armchairing" we train this way. As for Carotids and kidneys etc that I mentioned? Thats what slicing the legs arterials and connective tissue is for-to lead there. Its just a view... but the last place on earth I would ever choose to be with a person who has a knife is on the ground- thats all. Training with sticks is a great method as the cuts, bruises, contusions and sometimes fractures, make you very tactically aware of how vulnerable you really are. Two or three cuts a second coupled with good body awareness and a focused intent is allot for most men to handle. Cheers Dan

if you had sufficient control over him and the knife it's a good place to land ,but it is better to be the hell out of there overall .