Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-13-2005, 09:46 PM   #26
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 865
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

With reference to Aikido and the dynamic sphere "Kokyu nage" is what we call irimi nage ura and what's refered to as irimi nage in the book is what we call irimi nage omote.
Kokyu for us is a sort of exercise based on just about any technique. Ikkyo kokyu for example is a one handed affair where tori extends forward as much as possible causing uke to forward roll rather than the usual pin.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 07:39 AM   #27
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Except in Randori, aikido trainning is two person kata training. The Uke should perform his part as well. It's like dance.Don't grab collar. It misses the point of this excercise. If you really want effective, why don't you further and grab hair or ear? Don't know if the explaination is correct. I also don't like the word "cutting down". Blend is a more like it. I don't think it means to match speed with the uke's arm, it's more like to find uke's centre and blend/connect your centre to it, then redirect.
I agree that Aikido training is two person kata training... but dance? Sometimes I like to train with beginners because they tend to resist or not move so smoothly, so it is a measure of skill if you can move them well and without force... More advanced students have good ukemi and tend to follow, so you are sometimes not sure if your technique is effective (the concept of resistance has been discussed in many forums, so I won't bring it up here).

Some books suggest that one should grab the collar... so I'm sure there's some wisdom there... just wanted to know what other people think.

As for matching speed with uke's arm, I thought if you could cut down and follow uke's strike downwards, you could use the arm's energy and downward movement to help bring uke down... But I agree, it's very difficult.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 07:44 AM   #28
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Look where his fingertips are!!!! Where the head goes the body follows...
eyrie... thanks... I use that tip about the head during the kake stage, but never thought about using it during kuzushi...
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 08:05 AM   #29
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Canada
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:

Sometimes I like to train with beginners because they tend to resist or not move so smoothly, so it is a measure of skill if you can move them well and without force.
Without force?! Beginners?!

You should try it on strangers. See if you can move them without force. Stop living in a fantasy aikido land.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 01:15 PM   #30
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 393
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
I am re-looking at my irimi shomenuchi nage for the xxx time (This always reminds me why they call this the 30-year technique)... I have a couple of questions that I would be grateful for some enlightenment:
(1) Holding uke - I notice that some styles tend to grab the collar... I was wondering whether anyone has done a comparison between grabbing the collar and holding the attacker somewhere near the head (as above)... I'll be trying this myself, but it'll be a while before I can make conclusions...

Many thanks in advance...
Here are my reasons for why some styles don't hold the collar and some styles do:
1) In Japan, I witnessed at Aikikai Honbu that they grab the collar. This seems effective for I don't think you will find a guy in Japan that will attack you and he won't be wearing a shirt.

2) In my dojo here in the US, we are taught to grab the head. This seems effective for you are more likely to be attacked by a guy that is shirtless. Either a drunk at the park during a picnic, at the beach, at a sporting event, etc...

Now I don't know the actual reasons for the differences in technique but these are the reasons that I came up with to justify the differences for me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 04:38 PM   #31
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Without force?! Beginners?!

You should try it on strangers. See if you can move them without force. Stop living in a fantasy aikido land.
Better yet, try it on someone from a completely different martial art and see how your technique holds up without "power".

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 08:34 PM   #32
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
If uke has got good balance, there are a few tricks to effect kuzushi. This has to do with where uke's weight is centered. Go back and re-read my description. Drawing uke's weight on his front foot and into your center is the key. This is where kokyu comes into play.
eyrie... thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. Drawing uke's weight onto his front foot and into one's center seems to be a general concept in the Aikido framework.

I chanced upon an excellent book a few days ago that talks about this and other ideas: "Center - The Power of Aikido" by Ron Meyer and Mark Reeder. The book summarizes some of the ideas of Ikeda Sensei of Boulder Aikikai. I'll be trying to incorporate the ideas in my training in the months ahead... Actually, I'm very excited as reading the book has made me look at the techniques in a different light
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 02:17 AM   #33
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Recently, I've seen a slight variation in bringing uke down in the last part of shomenuchi iriminage. Tori snaps his shoulder and hip forward (a bit like what you might do in katadori ikkyo omote to bring uke down) and uses that momentum to swing his arm into uke's neck.

This is slightly different from what I normally see where tori uses his shoulder to rotate his arm or push it directly into uke's neck - i.e. the hip doesn't snap forward. Has anyone seen this variation? Any comments?

Thanks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 08:52 PM   #34
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

I would say to forget the variations and focus on one thing - that of controlling uke's center throughout the entire movement. All the other "variations" will manifest itself depending on how uke moves. Unless you have a really excellent uke, it would be difficult to physically "do" anything and still call it aikido.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 09:02 PM   #35
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Someone (I think it was the original poster) mentioned something about performing irimi-nage on a taller uke. The answer is simple: Bring the person down to your level. Hanmi hantachi is good exercise for this.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 09:49 PM   #36
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I would say to forget the variations and focus on one thing - that of controlling uke's center throughout the entire movement. All the other "variations" will manifest itself depending on how uke moves. Unless you have a really excellent uke, it would be difficult to physically "do" anything and still call it aikido.
That's true, but what I saw was rather unusual. A lot of variations I see start differently - e.g. swinging the uke around to dissipate the energy, difference in freeing the grip, etc... but the finishing move is about the same... and what I saw was rather different.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 10:47 AM   #37
Nick Pagnucco
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 107
United_States
Offline
Re: Trouble with Iriminagi

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
That's true, but what I saw was rather unusual. A lot of variations I see start differently - e.g. swinging the uke around to dissipate the energy, difference in freeing the grip, etc... but the finishing move is about the same... and what I saw was rather different.
Have you felt it? If so, how different does it feel?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beginner having trouble. Hawkins121 General 15 03-30-2005 01:17 AM
There's going to be trouble daniel loughlin General 48 02-28-2005 05:32 PM
Meditation trouble nmrmak Spiritual 9 11-08-2004 09:25 AM
Trouble with rolling! A D General 8 08-03-2004 10:58 PM
Does intimidation work on you? Diablo General 21 07-16-2002 05:28 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:27 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate