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Old 04-10-2006, 04:26 PM   #51
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
So before we go asserting that everyone running a dojo, selling a t-shirt, or hosting a seminar is looking to get rich we might want to re-think that since I'm sure that ours is not the only non-profit dojo out there.
What's wrong with trying to get rich?

Which of the Shihan are paupers?

Which run on a non-profit basis?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 04-10-2006, 04:49 PM   #52
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
What's wrong with trying to get rich?

Which of the Shihan are paupers?

Which run on a non-profit basis?
I never said there was anything wrong with it; Someone else was making the point that Aikido dojos are being run like fitness centers for the purpose of making a profit.

My point is every Gold's Gym, blah blah fitness center, etc that is teaching the latest and greatest fad exercise routine is out to make a profit first and foremost.

Not all Aikido dojos are. Many dojos primary concern is the teaching of the art first and foremost and if we have enough money left over in December for a Christmas party, that's great. If not, then it is either potluck or we don't have one.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-10-2006, 05:12 PM   #53
Chris Li
 
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,079
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
So before we go asserting that everyone running a dojo, selling a t-shirt, or hosting a seminar is looking to get rich we might want to re-think that since I'm sure that ours is not the only non-profit dojo out there.
I don't think that anyone asserted that. However, it is undeniable that Sokaku Takeda, Morhihei Ueshiba, and many other instructors past and present made or make their living from selling their professional services. Given that fact, my point was that it is somewhat hypocritical to denigrate fitness instructors for doing the same thing.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Li : 04-10-2006 at 05:15 PM.

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Old 04-10-2006, 10:12 PM   #54
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
My point is every Gold's Gym, blah blah fitness center, etc that is teaching the latest and greatest fad exercise routine is out to make a profit first and foremost.

Not all Aikido dojos are.
Maybe they should be.

Not all aikido dojo are still in business.

Gotta deal with the harsh realities first.

Atemi is 90% of aikido.

Ya can't pay da rent, ya gotta practice in da park, rain or shine, dog poo and red ants.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:13 AM   #55
ian
 
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Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
...Anyway, it has been my experience that either Aikido people expect to pay less each month than those who do almost any other activity do, or, if they pay the same amount, they expect to get alot more for their money.
True, but I think there is a reason for that. Most aikidoka consider it an aspect of their life. In many martial arts the idea is 'to get to black belt' or as cheap baby-sitting. Thus members can have a direct cost-benefit analysis. I personally believe aikido should be as cheap as possible (preferably free).

Karate has lost out so much by going down the profit orientated route. When your instructors are motivated primarily by profit they try to teach as early as possible and to as wider group as possible. The motivation should be to pass on aikido as sincerely as they can - thus ponteitally restricting those they target the training towards and constantly assessing themselves for their ability to adequately transfer this knowledge.

I can understand full time instructors earning a profit (to live) from aikido, but part time instructors I would think should teach as a way of paying back the experience of aikido that they have been gifted with. Ueshiba must have felt similar (thus the disupte with Takeda over dojo fees).

For profit martial arts instruction often comes over as a 'pyrimid scheme' where you have to 'big-up' your own instructor and 'diss' other instructors to ensure profits and competitveness.

Anyway, I must get back to my Forze training or I won't be 'buff' enough to 'kick arse'...

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:12 AM   #56
SmilingNage
Location: NJ
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

If the burbs that have sprung up about NYC are counted, then NYC would be the largest. As it is, many these communities are seperated by state lines. Many towns and communities of Conn, and NJ are nothing more than over flow of citizens of NYC. So NYC would be larger given these factors.

For the Record, 7 days a week at Aikikai hombu is 115 usd, not including the registration fee.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:33 PM   #57
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
I personally believe aikido should be as cheap as possible (preferably free).
Me, too. And highways, hospitals, 5-star hotels, movies, cars...


Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:41 PM   #58
Chuck Clark
 
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Me, three... and education, healthcare, home heating... I don't mind paying for the hotels, cars, etc.

By the way, I echo Don's sentiment about Chris Li's posts and include Don's as well. They always make me think and expand my view. Sorta what this is all about...

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 04-11-2006, 01:17 PM   #59
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Me four and I like them two because they ain't exactly Curmudgeons yet but give them a few years, their working on it. Chris has got the makings of a world class grumpy old bastard. I may have to teach him a little about the disagreeable and stubborn parts but not much. And you Clark, you are just to damn mellow, likeable and easygoing. I know your give and getter works real good but you put on this folksy facade then then like old Emeril says BAMMM and folks don't know what got'um!!

I do wish this gal in question didn't insinuate this was Japanese sword training. Hell I would not have a problem if it represented European Broad sword.

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 04-11-2006 at 01:19 PM.

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Old 04-11-2006, 05:04 PM   #60
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Maybe they should be.

Not all aikido dojo are still in business.

Gotta deal with the harsh realities first.

Atemi is 90% of aikido.

Ya can't pay da rent, ya gotta practice in da park, rain or shine, dog poo and red ants.
Paying the rent and other expenses is break even, not profit. If a lot of the non-profit dojos actually tried to make a profit to pay instructors, etc instead of just covering expenses as a non-profit then there would be a lot less of them in business still.

I'm reasonably sure that my dojo would not have survived the last 20+ years if it had to make a profit that supported instructor salaries etc to stay open.

The other thing to consider is that it is harder to question the motives of an instructor that is teching 4-7 days/week for free while also working a full-time job. That is an instructor that is doing for the love of teaching and sharing their knowledge of the art and not someone who wants to get another mat fee out of you.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:46 PM   #61
Chuck Clark
 
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
And you Clark, you are just to damn mellow, likeable and easygoing. I know your give and getter works real good but you put on this folksy facade then then like old Emeril says BAMMM and folks don't know what got'um!!
I call it the "Velvet Hammer", Dennis. I've got to go to the dojo just now... Regards to you and yours.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:20 PM   #62
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
The other thing to consider is that it is harder to question the motives of an instructor that is teching 4-7 days/week for free while also working a full-time job. That is an instructor that is doing for the love of teaching and sharing their knowledge of the art and not someone who wants to get another mat fee out of you.
Let's see...

Yamada?
No. Chiba?
No. Saotome?
No. Ikeda?
No.

Hark and forsooth (gadzooks!)--A pattern emerges:

The best of the best make money doing aikido!

(Mr. O'Brien, I just checked your profile and noticed who your teachers are--old buddies of mine from Sarasota days. Please extend them warm greetings from myself.)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Messrs. Clark and Hooker,

I'm flattered by your kind sentiments, gentlemen. Thank you.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Last edited by Don_Modesto : 04-11-2006 at 09:25 PM.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:39 PM   #63
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

These are all signs of the times; I was at Border's bookstore today and saw a book on getting fit with Japanese samurai sword technique. So desu ka. We can take heart in something as simple as the bell sound that begins and ends our classes: it is part of the path.
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:49 PM   #64
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Breaking even with a dojo would constitute a helluva win in my estimation. If someone has had a dojo long enough to generate a living, especially a good living, well good on 'em. For every one that survives, there are probably a dozen that fail (for better or for worse).

As to Forza or Chambarra, what the hell? As long as they aren't claiming you can go out and fight and win a duel, only that you can have a mystical experience, see green smoke, and gain enlightenment, while getting totally buff, who's getting hurt more than they would be if the went to aerobics classes or EST training? Free market rulez.

Always been fads, they comes and they goes. So?

Thereare a lot of Koryu folks who think Aikidoka are doing similar activity. And many are. I might be. I haven't become "enlightened" yet, and my levitation is spotty at best.
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Old 04-12-2006, 06:59 AM   #65
Amelia Smith
 
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Dojo: Martha's Vineyard Aikido Club
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

I practice at a very small, local dojo which is located on the sensei's property, next to his house. This means that for the past 22 or so years, he has not only not been making a profit from aikido, he has been subsidising it by building the dojo, paying its property taxes, etc. I don't think that this situation is unique, and in a way it's admirable but sometimes I wonder if it would be better if we were a bit more focused on making money. I mean, volunteerism is all well and good, but it often leads to having one or two people who are unduly stressed by keeping the organization running. I sometimes think that if we, as a dojo, needed to make more money, we would have more incentive to go out and spread the word, to encourage new members to stay (by being friendlier, more accessible, more helpful to beginners). I really think that might strengthen the art, here. The idea that aikido is only for the select few seems contrary to OSensei's assertion that aikido is for the whole world... even if he didn't accept all students.

In the modern world, you need to use the marketplace to spread any art or practice beyond your own back yard. This "swordercize" seems a bit gimmicky, but so what? As many of you have said in earlier posts, it sounds like a basically good thing -- people will exercise, get more fit, and possibly have fun. Sure, they might develop some bad form in their sword-swinging, but everyone has a few physical habits to get over when they start a new art.

So go ahead. Make money if you can, and reinvest it/youself so we can all keep on practicing.
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:37 PM   #66
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: Is there a new fad "sword exercise?"

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Let's see...

Yamada?
No. Chiba?
No. Saotome?
No. Ikeda?
No.

Hark and forsooth (gadzooks!)--A pattern emerges:

The best of the best make money doing aikido!

(Mr. O'Brien, I just checked your profile and noticed who your teachers are--old buddies of mine from Sarasota days. Please extend them warm greetings from myself.)
*smiles*
I'm all about those who can make a living teaching doing it; I'm just glad that there are those who are dedicated enough and willing to do it without it being necessary. Like I said, I have yet to train at a full-time for profit dojo so I would not have had the honor of training yet where it not for those willing to donate their time and knowledge.

I'll be sure and pass along your warm greetings next week when I return to the mat. I'm on a mini-vacation starting as soon as I get off work tonight.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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