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Old 06-05-2000, 04:50 PM   #1
jboylan
Dojo: North Bay Aikido
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Does anybody know the best way to train with a bum knee? Assume that rotation and seiza/suwari waza are impossible.

jeff
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Old 06-06-2000, 06:45 AM   #2
jdsingleton
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Arlington, VA
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Quote:
Originally posted by jboylan
Does anybody know the best way to train with a bum knee? Assume that rotation and seiza/suwari waza are impossible.
Can you be a bit more specific, Jeff? (I mean, "bum knee" is not to specific.)

As you may know, since I've mentioned it on Aikido-L, I have a bad knee. I can't sit seiza and suwari waza is difficult. The main reason is because I don't have a full range of motion when bending it and can't bend it back quite far enough--in other words, it stops short of getting to the point my heel hits my butt. I can sit a modified seiza, for short periods, by crossing my feet at the arches and sitting on my right heel. It puts most of my weight on my right leg, but I can bow in at the begining of class and out at the end of class. I sit cross legged virtually any other time.

Once my knee was rebuilt, the rotation problem pretty much disappeared. Absent surgery, a de-rotation brace is possible solution. My knee still either bends to the side or "shifts" a few times in class, but I just have to be careful about what I do.

My advice would be to get to know what you can and cannot do and train accordingly. There are times I've had to sit out because I know my knee isn't going to respond. There are nights I've just had to take off, too. I wish I could do everything, but I'm just glad to do what I can.

Jim
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Old 06-06-2000, 11:40 AM   #3
jboylan
Dojo: North Bay Aikido
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Basically what I was trying to do.... It's really difficult for me to admit defeat, though.

The bum knee is a damaged medial miniscus that I am going in for surgery on this week. Unfortunately, the timing sucks and I may have to miss our summer retreat. I am just desperately trying to find a way to participate.

jeff
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Old 06-06-2000, 05:01 PM   #4
pixiebob
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Lightbulb

cut the leg off just above the knee. when you tire of hanmi-handachi ma-ai, go to the kids class.
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Old 06-06-2000, 05:25 PM   #5
jboylan
Dojo: North Bay Aikido
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Quote:
Originally posted by pixiebob
cut the leg off just above the knee. when you tire of hanmi-handachi ma-ai, go to the kids class.
I've considered it. Believe me.

jeff
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Old 06-08-2000, 02:46 PM   #6
tarik
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jboylan
Does anybody know the best way to train with a bum knee? Assume that rotation and seiza/suwari waza are impossible.

jeff
Yeah, there's plenty of ways to modify your movement to prevent knee rotation. You might even be able to say that rotation should not happen at the knee, but lower in your stance.

It means working on posture and footwork alot and paying less attention (for a time) to specifics of how to make the technique work with the hands.

Tarik

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Old 06-08-2000, 04:40 PM   #7
Victor
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The aching knees seem to be the Aikido general problem (from the surgeons' point of view).

Please see the doctor - he is the one who can tell you more professional advice.

1. If he tells you to rest - please, rest.
2. If he tells you to stop practicing Aikido - go to another doctor. (then see 1.)

After you have visited at least 2 or 3 doctors read the next lines...

If you can practice bokken/jo, use elastic rollers - they'll help your knees.

Try eating more calcium, Vitamins (especially D group vitamins), fish fiber, drinking more milk, take the sun more often and so on.

Do not expose your knees to the temperatures lower than 10 oC.

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 06-08-2000, 11:59 PM   #8
jboylan
Dojo: North Bay Aikido
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Quote:
Originally posted by Victor
The aching knees seem to be the Aikido general problem (from the surgeons' point of view).
I have jokingly been calling it the Knee Club for Aikido (Take off on bad American commercials). There are a lot of us out there.

Quote:

Please see the doctor - he is the one who can tell you more professional advice.
Been there, done that. Just got the surgery to prove it. I should be fine to go to the <ahem> Aikido-L Seminar.

Quote:

1. If he tells you to rest - please, rest.
2. If he tells you to stop practicing Aikido - go to another doctor. (then see 1.)

After you have visited at least 2 or 3 doctors read the next lines...
Fortunately, the doctor that I first went to was a yudansha at my dojo. He referred me to a specialist who, while he doesn't know aikido, isn't against martial art training. The only thing that he told me was don't take up jogging. We'll see what he says after my next appointment....

Quote:

If you can practice bokken/jo, use elastic rollers - they'll help your knees.
Always a fun thing to do. Unfortunately, I have to take it really slowly because I have a tendancy to forget about my feet and they end up in all sorts of wierd directions.

Quote:

Try eating more calcium, Vitamins (especially D group vitamins), fish fiber, drinking more milk, take the sun more often and so on.
This is something that you don't have to tell me. I am already doing most of this, except I didn't think of fish fiber. What exactly are you meaning?

Quote:

Do not expose your knees to the temperatures lower than 10 oC.
Not too hard to avoid this. Assuming that I am remembering the conversion correctly, this is the lower end of nighttime temperatures around here.

jeff
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Old 06-10-2000, 09:23 AM   #9
Victor
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Quote:
Originally posted by jboylan
Quote:

Always a fun thing to do. Unfortunately, I have to take it really slowly because I have a tendancy to forget about my feet and they end up in all sorts of wierd directions.
Ask the physician how to place the plastic rollers correctly.

Quote:
Quote:

Try eating more calcium, Vitamins (especially D group vitamins), fish fiber, drinking more milk, take the sun more often and so on.


This is something that you don't have to tell me. I am already doing most of this, except I didn't think of fish fiber. What exactly are you meaning?
Fish fiber capsules for example.

Quote:
Quote:

Do not expose your knees to the temperatures lower than 10 oC.


Not too hard to avoid this. Assuming that I am remembering the conversion correctly, this is the lower end of nighttime temperatures around here.
Never forget 'bout air conditioners.

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 06-11-2000, 01:02 PM   #10
Chuck Clark
 
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Do everything possible to take care of the injury and allow healing.

Many Doctors can't give good advice related to your training because they have no idea what you do.

When you do train with a knee injury, along with all you do to promote healing, don't forget to practice the best principles of posture and movement. For example, never begin a turn by rotating the knee. Keep the alignment of toes, knee, and hip and turn from the waist (center) and toes at the same time keeping the knee in line.

Find a qualified, experienced Feldenkrais Therapist to help you.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 07-04-2000, 07:00 PM   #11
AikiTom
Dojo: Aikido Martial Arts Center
Location: Blue Grass, IA
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Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Do everything possible to take care of the injury and allow healing.
I second that! Knees are too fragile to push I believe. As hard as it is to do, it's better to miss a month's classes than it is to go back half-healed and mess it up worse.
Our teacher constantly reminds us how small an amount of pressure it takes to break an elbow or arm if needed in extreme situations, so that bears minding as to yourself putting too much on it with a misstep or twist.
I'm not a doctor, but for things in more of the small strain category, I've used those elastic tube things with a place to slip in pads. They make your knee feel really fat, but it beats the alternative of injury. Also, had to use them while recovering from extended shikko practice - no fun,

May the force be with you!
AikiTom
"Be the change you want to see."
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Old 11-24-2001, 01:56 PM   #12
benj langdon
Dojo: aikido of Monterey
Location: big sur,california
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start exploring Feldenkrais!!!

Benj@EsalenmassageBali.com
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Old 11-25-2001, 07:27 AM   #13
L. Camejo
 
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Ai symbol Fish Fiber

Hi all,

You may know about this already but try a dietary supplement called "Glucosamine Chondroitin with Shark Cartilage" it really helped with my knee problems, though I'll admit they were not as sever as I'm seeing here.

Alternatively a Chinese Qigong exercise called Tai Chi Ruler may also aid as a form of physical therapy for your knees and helps with lower body coordination and strengthening of the joints. It allows for a good workout without impact and twisting that can stress the knee joints.

Hope this is of help.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 11-27-2001, 12:35 PM   #14
AikiAlf
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 47
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Unhappy

as a side note to other beginnners, when i noticed i was developing knee problems early in my training I decided to slow down and study the movements more. In particular watching where your weight is shifted on in rowing exercise helped a great deal. According to Rick sensei should be between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot.
Try learning not to move beyond those boundaries. I noticed that turning was easier with weight off the pivoting foot.. I started noticing my turns were less and less stressful to my knees. After a year of practicing slowly and building up this body memory I can practice at speed now. I haven't had any more knee issues beyond the usual seiza agony by the end of practice.

I don't want to mislead anyone, so if you know better please let me know..
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