Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-28-2006, 12:17 PM   #26
Robert Cheshire
 
Robert Cheshire's Avatar
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
Location: Texas
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Ditto on most of what has already been written. Jorge Garcia Sensei is right on the money with how we teach Yoseikan as well. MOST of the black belt throws we have has a building block in the basics. In fact, we did a week long camp once with the theme "It's all Robuse (ikkyu to those non Yoseikan folks)." Where our U.S. Technical Director showed how ALL of our throws can be found to have some element of robuse in it.

Another reason to really learn the basics is because we have been known to ask for a very basic throw on an advanced kyu / dan rank belt test. The expectation of how you perform the technique grows with your rank.

Just a quick comment!

Last edited by Robert Cheshire : 02-28-2006 at 12:18 PM. Reason: spelling

Robert Cheshire
Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
www.yoseikanbudo.us
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 01:06 PM   #27
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
Having said all that...the 9 don't exist by accident. My feeling is that these have come to the fore over time as the most effective vehicles for practicing the bases. Presumably specifically selected by O'Sensei from his experiences in other arts.
Just to add to what your saying Darren; I believe O'Sensei said that everything you need to learn aikido can be found in Shihonage. He apparently had one student who practised only that technique.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 05:13 PM   #28
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 660
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

I have heard of him!!
If I understand correctly, he had a mental condition where that is a *track* that he falls into whenever he attempts ANY sort of technique.
Un-intentional shihonage, un-planned shiho, un-WANTED shihonage...
I wish I could remember the reference to him......Shiho-Sam is the name if I have it right. Kind of sad really. (but funny too shrug)
anyone else ?
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 05:39 PM   #29
koz
 
koz's Avatar
Dojo: Kaiso Dobun Kenkyukai
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 41
New Zealand
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

The basics are fundamental to a point, then they are no longer relevant. Oh, and while not relevant, they are not irrelevant.

But you can't get to the latter without understanding the former.

Last edited by koz : 02-28-2006 at 05:47 PM.

True mastery can be gained
by letting things go their own way.

Lao Tzu - Tao Te Ching, Ch48
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2006, 04:29 AM   #30
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 647
England
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Just to add to what your saying Darren; I believe O'Sensei said that everything you need to learn aikido can be found in Shihonage. He apparently had one student who practised only that technique.
absolutely.

With us NAF guys its Tai No Henka rather than shihonage.

we start every class with this and use it as a reference for every thing else.

Vary the maai one way and you have kotagaeshi...change it the other way you have irimi nage.

and so on .....

Cheers

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2006, 05:42 AM   #31
Jerry Miller
 
Jerry Miller's Avatar
Location: Spring Tx
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 163
United_States
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
absolutely.

With us NAF guys its Tai No Henka rather than shihonage.

we start every class with this and use it as a reference for every thing else.

Vary the maai one way and you have kotagaeshi...change it the other way you have irimi nage.

and so on .....

Cheers

D
I was kind of noticing that but I am way to young to make much of it yet. I just file it for future reference.

Jerry Miller
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2006, 11:37 AM   #32
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
have heard of him!!
If I understand correctly, he had a mental condition where that is a *track* that he falls into whenever he attempts ANY sort of technique.
Un-intentional shihonage, un-planned shiho, un-WANTED shihonage...
I wish I could remember the reference to him......Shiho-Sam is the name if I have it right. Kind of sad really. (but funny too shrug)
anyone else ?
I'd forgot about that! If it was the same person then I did hear a story about him being asked to leave the dojo, so he started hiding in some bushes in a park or some such and jumping out on passers by and performing shihonage on them. That couldnt be weirder if you wrote it for a film/sitcom...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 09:16 AM   #33
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Without stressing the basics, how could we underhandedly insult oneanother by telling eachother we need more of them?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 09:32 AM   #34
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Shioda - 'You must always go back to the basics.'

Something to that effect anyways. Without decent basics, then what will you acheive?

As well as the 'nine basic techniques' (Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Shihonage, Kotegeashi, Iriminage, kaitennage, Tenchinage, in my opinion)
FWIW, in his Takemusu Aikido series, Saito Morihiro listed the basics (kihon waza) as Ikkyo-Yonkyo (Vol. 1), Shiho-nage & Kotegaeshi (Vol. 2), and Kaiten-nage, Tenchi-nage, Koshi-nage, & Juji-nage (Vol 3).

I myself was rather shocked to see koshi-nage and juji-nage listed in "the basics"! But I think the reasoning goes that they still form the same paradigm as ikkyo through yonkyo. They are structured attacks that help illuminate principles, rather than scenario based technique.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2006, 04:44 AM   #35
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
FWIW, in his Takemusu Aikido series, Saito Morihiro listed the basics (kihon waza) as Ikkyo-Yonkyo (Vol. 1), Shiho-nage & Kotegaeshi (Vol. 2), and Kaiten-nage, Tenchi-nage, Koshi-nage, & Juji-nage (Vol 3).

I myself was rather shocked to see koshi-nage and juji-nage listed in "the basics"! But I think the reasoning goes that they still form the same paradigm as ikkyo through yonkyo. They are structured attacks that help illuminate principles, rather than scenario based technique.
Wow, thats interesting. Did he include Iriminage? I see what you mean, while I tend to think of jujinage and koshinage as more advanced techniques, really theres only 15 or so distinct techniques anyways and they all stem from the same core principles. Everything else is a variation or a kokyunage.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2006, 04:59 AM   #36
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Wow, thats interesting. Did he include Iriminage?
Whoops! Yes, it's in Vol. 2 with Shiho-nage and Kotegaeshi.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2006, 05:56 AM   #37
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

I was gonna say!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2006, 08:23 AM   #38
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

I think in a real attack, one is more likely to do the basic techniques, than some fancy variation, because the basic techniques are fast and easier to perform with power. So, practicing the basics techniques is quite important, IMHO.

Also, when practicing the basics, it is easier to focus on the more fundamental principles of Aikido - e.g. connecting with uke's center, kokyu ryoku, etc... the mind isn't partly distracted by the complexity of the movement.

There is a complementary thread on Training more advanced techniques that overlaps this discussion.

Finally, I was wondering what percentage of everyone's general training class (not the beginner's class) is devoted to kihonwaza - i.e. basic techiques that are at most 2-3rd kyu grading techniques. Is it less than 50%?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2006, 10:10 AM   #39
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
Finally, I was wondering what percentage of everyone's general training class (not the beginner's class) is devoted to kihonwaza - i.e. basic techiques that are at most 2-3rd kyu grading techniques. Is it less than 50%?
More like 90%, though it varies by instructor. I had to struggle to learn yonkyo for my third kyu test, because most of the instructors preferred to go back to ikkyo again and again....not that my ikkyo couldn't use work, but there was yonkyo on the test....

One of the reasons that I really enjoy seeing my seniors promoted is that we may get to do something flashy and advanced while working on their test prep. I learned the two-uke techniques from Taigi #20 this way.

The Instructors' Class might go as low as 50% emphasis on the basics; lower than that only when test-prep is involved.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2006, 04:46 PM   #40
Carlos Rivera
 
Carlos Rivera's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido in Savannah
Location: Savannah, GA
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

You have to lay the brick to build the foundation, or if you pour concrete (which I have done in the past) you have to mix it well so it can settle and be really solid. There are "20 year techniques," right? Even at a seminar with Hitohiro Saito Sensei you start with the basics, and he will correct you so you have a fairly good idea what your "basic technique" should be. Otherwise, you get a big "DAME" (which translates to wrong) if you insist on not paying attention to details involved in correction.

Same thing goes for your basics, whether techniques, weapons or posture. At our dojo (as in many Iwama style dojos) we start with basics in every class and build off from there (heck, we even have an "all basics" class). By the time you realize that your basics are woven into most every technique you can imagine, then it becomes clear there is a foundation laid out for good Aikido and good practice. And yet it becomes second nature, as it should be.

Don't you need to learn how to walk before you can run?

Last edited by Carlos Rivera : 03-06-2006 at 04:49 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2006, 09:13 PM   #41
Perry Bell
Dojo: Deshi-do
Location: Melbourne / Australia
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39
Australia
Offline
Re: How important are the basic techniques

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
I think the basics of all martial arts, regardless of style, are the same. The techniques of aikido are a method of practicing these basics. The basics are correct timing and distance; correct posture (inc. use of centre) and relaxation. As a whole, this is effectively 'doing the right thing at the right time', which sounds trite, but it is what we are trying to learn.

The basic 'techniques' specifically ikkyo and irimi-nage, I think are the easiest route to understanding these basics, because without them the techniques make less sense and are more difficult to do; although the basics are identical in all techniques.

In the excellent book 'Master Tesshu: Sword of No Sword' (John Stevens) Tesshu talks about having to do 3 years of basic cuts (full time) prior to learning any sparring techniques. In kung-fu, traditionally the student would only learn how to stand in the horse stance for the whole 1st year of training.

Without the basics the techniques are empty and useless.
Hi Ian

You are absolutely correct, I have bee practicing and teaching karate and Aikido for 30 years and in both the basics are fundamental, I have also been involved in the building industry for most of my 47 years and I know that if I don't follow the basic principles of laying a foundation the building will fall down.

Perry
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Randori kocakb General 32 09-12-2016 07:29 AM
Best DVD for basic Aikido techniques? DavidK Training 18 12-03-2012 12:05 AM
Gokyo-why? Steve Morabito Techniques 65 11-26-2006 06:18 PM
Poll: Which movement direction in your body do you think is the most important in aikido techniques? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 12 04-26-2005 02:57 AM
Just maybe I figured something out? DaveO Spiritual 15 05-31-2004 10:10 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:51 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate