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Old 02-23-2006, 06:38 PM   #76
Meynard
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Re: Why these techniques?

It's difficult to make people understand especially if they just simply don't want to understand what's being said and take a contratrian attitude in order prevent a shift their martial arts paradigm.

Just read my post again.
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Old 02-23-2006, 06:54 PM   #77
Edwin Neal
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Re: Why these techniques?

your ideas are unsound and unsupported by facts... you have not yet provided any serious example of a weapon technique that has been adapted to be applied empty handed... quite the opposite is in fact the view of scholars of the martial arts... empty hand techniques have been adapted to utilize a weapon... you make vaugue and clearly wrong headed assertions, as some sort of aikido dogma, and then when the flaws and fallacies of your cherished 'philosophy' are shown to be untenable you resort to personal attacks rather than address the flaws with sound examples and arguments... you call people inexperienced? this proves your point how? i understand what you are saying, but it simply does not compute!!! the facts, history, and even the very definition of the terms you use are clearly beyond your experience to analyze, and objectively draw conclusions from... why do you cling to this view in the face of the facts... are you getting defensive in order to prevent a shift in YOUR martial arts paradigm???

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-23-2006, 07:32 PM   #78
eyrie
 
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Re: Why these techniques?

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
It's difficult to make people understand especially if they just simply don't want to understand what's being said and take a contratrian attitude in order prevent a shift their martial arts paradigm.

Just read my post again.
And the aiki response would be....????

Thankfully, I'm not your student....for fear that I might be too thick to understand....


Ignatius
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:51 PM   #79
Meynard
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Re: Why these techniques?

uhuh... I see that I've completely wasted my time.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:11 PM   #80
eyrie
 
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Re: Why these techniques?

Well, not really, you posited some interesting ideas - which made me go look up the evolution of unarmed combat and weaponry.... so it wasn't a total waste of your time....

Ignatius
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:37 PM   #81
W^2
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Eek! Why is a matter of personal perception…

Hello Everyone,

My post relates to the original question -- why these techniques? I'd like to address what constitutes a 'weapon' first, beginning with the word as defined by Merriam-webster:

Main Entry: 1weap•on
Pronunciation: 'we-p&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wepen, from Old English w[AE]pen; akin to Old High German wAffan weapon, Old Norse vApn
1 : something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2 : a means of contending against another


So, just about anything can be used as a weapon. For instance, an aluminum soda can is designed to be a 'beverage delivery system' for the erstwhile consumer, but if you tear the bottom off of an empty can it may be utilized as an improvised edged weapon. [Fanatical] Ideologies are another example of weaponry utilized in terrorism and psychological warfare, which brings us to a central point: what constitutes a weapon is an individualized mental perception, because without a brain with which to perceive, you couldn't contend with anyone. So, by definition, anything that could possibly be used as a means of contending against another is a weapon, and therefore, all martial arts are ‘weapons' based…

Why these techniques? Because there are those who believe that they embody the central principles that make Aikido a dynamic, unique, useful martial art, and a worthwhile subject for further study.

In addition, Patrick Cassidy Sensei once described the progression in Aikido, and I paraphrase here, as ‘first you learn Tai Sabaki (about your body/yourself), then Kokyu Ho (body-mind-breath coordination -- body/self), then Ki No Musubi (connecting to your partners energy -- external environment/others). So, Tai Sabaki and Kokyu Ho + Ki No Musubi = Awase (blending energy -- extending your sphere of influence).

So, learning the core waza in the beginning teaches us about ourselves, then about how we relate to others, and then how we influence others, and so on…

Employing weapons such as the Jo and Bokken in training helps to illustrate and magnify the central principles of Aikido by changing the Maai -- the movement is made larger and more idealized.

Of course, this is just my personal, heuristic perspective, but I hope someone finds it helpful.

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita!

Ward^2
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Old 02-23-2006, 09:47 PM   #82
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Re: Why these techniques?

First off, let me just say thank you "ward ward"; back on track!

While I agree, with what I believe you are saying, that these are the techniques we use to explore Aikido, because learning Aiki is the true nature of Aikido. I think what Michael is asking is why did O-sensei choose these techniques (Ikkyo, nikyo sankyo etc.) to explore Aikido, and further what relevance do these techniques hold.

I am of the opinion that O-sensei chose these techniques because they are what he and his students knew when he started his huge and final exploration into Aiki (these techniques being a common ground to use for exploration, and something that he knew well), and these techniques are directly from and not developed beyond a weapons system.

Now as to your analogy of people being weapons, I would also agree, I would call a navy seal a weapon, I would call an special forces agent a weapon, but in the context of this conversation, I am talking about a weapon specifically carried in the hand, a weapon that gives a distinct mechanical advantage that an empty hand alone does not have.

-Chris Hein
I think hearing from other people who are reading this is nice, the conversation is getting a little stale.
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Old 02-23-2006, 10:11 PM   #83
eyrie
 
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Re: Why these techniques?

Well, Chris, you seem to be repeating the same old stale mantra yourself.

What I'm interested in hearing from others is why only one of the 30 techniques in ikkajo ended up being ikkyo. Likewise with the other 5 "pins".... ditto with the other techniques in the 2700+ in the Daito-ryu curriculum.

Ignatius
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Old 02-23-2006, 10:53 PM   #84
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Re: Why these techniques?

Just a different classification scheme - one that I understand originated from Ueshiba M.'s students rather than the old man himself.

One man's technique is another man's variation.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:02 PM   #85
CNYMike
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Re: Why these techniques?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
A recent thread, "Regarding grabs in aikido," has produced some divergent and strongly opinioned views. For me it has sparked curiosity. Why were those particular techniques (attacks included) chosen to form the body of aikido?

As for the grabs, David Valadez and a few others mentioned that the attacks are merely energy prints. Some others suggested they were ways that beginners could be exposed to aikido before moving on to advanced applications. Others suggested "practical" applications such as grapplers bridging the gap, or Chris Hein's idea that the grabs are to restrict another's use of weapons.
My Kali instructor has said that every self defense system in the world has defenses against grabs. In fact, he likes to demonstrate a response to what we would call kosa dori that leads to a variation of juji garame if the other person strikes. Ac a week or two ago we playe with a knife disarm that felt a lot like sankyo; he admitted, "That one is very Aikido-like."

I also think grabs are taught first to make life easier for beginners. Katate dori, for instance, whether in gyaku hanmi or ai hnmi, is pretty simple and straight forward. But things like morote dori, kata dori-<strike> are a bit more complicated and potentially confusing. A sword disarm .... that is a scenario you simply do not want to be in! I think the progression is that the attacks get progressively worse. That's why you have hanmi hantachi, where uke stands and nage sits. Nage is starting out in a prtty bad spot.

Quote:
What about the techniques? Ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, rokkyo, kote gaeshi, shiho nage, irimi nage, kaiten nage, koshi nage, juji nage, kokyu nage. Why do they exist? What was their intended use? .....
To throw someone down and/or to restrain them without doing serious harm The founders of the jujutsu systems that preceeded Aikido had that constraint on them, and they had to work with the body mechanics from swordsmanship.

Quote:
Why spend so much time training them only to eschew them for kickboxing and grappling methods?
Becuase you like the art? Because you think those techniques would be good additions to your tool box? Because some people have used them in real life? Not me, but you have seen the testimonials in the threads that come up. Lots of reasons.

I see all of the above as options for empty hand combat. They aren't necessarliy mutually exlcusive, just possibilities.
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:14 PM   #86
Edwin Neal
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Re: Why these techniques?

good points Michael

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-23-2006, 11:26 PM   #87
eyrie
 
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Re: Why these techniques?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Just a different classification scheme - one that I understand originated from Ueshiba M.'s students rather than the old man himself.

One man's technique is another man's variation.
I suspect that ikkyo, the aikido version of ippondori, is a single idea, concept, or principle that encompasses the 30 techniques in ikkajo. IOW, perhaps once one understands the fundamental principle of ikkyo, the other 29 techniques become variations of the (1st) principle. (Sorry, couldn't resist the pun)...

Thoughts?

Ignatius
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