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Old 02-22-2006, 03:19 PM   #101
senshincenter
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Why don't we all just try and move forward with the topic or at least just opt to end the discussion over who was insulting and/or insulted. It seems to be taking over the thread when it was really nothing more than a difference of opinion - something so small, as Tarik pointed out. Nothing here was ever a big deal, so maybe we'd all be better off if we stop trying to make things into one??? I think it would be a lot easier, take less effort on everyone's part, to just let things go by - like the little things they are/were. :-)

For me, not everyone's Aikido has to be the same thing. For me, this has to remain a valid point of view, even when contrasting opinions are coming into contact with each other. In the end, though we are in the midst of discussion, we should realize that we do not all have to be doing the same thing. We should be comfortable with our own approach, not needing others to do what we do, think what we think, and/or speak how we speak. I'm fine sharing my ideas with others, but I would never want anyone to think that I'm teaching them by doing so. For me, a lot more goes into teaching than just sharing some ideas. In this forum, if my ideas ever come to make some reflect and/or think a bit differently, for me, that is all them - it's all about how they went on to think about and practice their Aikido. It has nothing to do with me at all.

If for some reason, someone in this thread felt I was out to be anyone's teacher and/or to make their Aikido look like mine, and/to uphold my Aikido as the only legitimate Aikido - let me say here that none of these things were ever of my intention. I will say here that I am "sensei" only to my students - that I am not sensei to anyone on these boards (which is the main reason why I ask folks here to always call me "Dave"); that I appreciate that everyone's Aikido looks different (that I don't believe in "Aikido" only "Aikidos"); and that my Aikido is definitely open to claims of being illegitimate, depending upon a given point of view.

All can be good if we but let it - my opinion.

Thanks for letting me opine one more time,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 02-22-2006, 04:57 PM   #102
tarik
 
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Re: Regarding grabs in Aikido...

In the spirit of moving forward..

What I find interesting about grabs in Aikido is not how realistic or unrealistic they are, but how I can possibly turn them into a connection to my partner wherein they cannot let go.

I certainly have spent a lot of time in my training exploring how nikyo comes from uke attempting to prevent this sword draw, and yonkyo is that sword takeway, and so forth, even using 'swords' and certainly find it a fascinating study.

I have also spent a lot of time trying to turn the various grabs into 'real' attacks, pushes or pulls that model various kinds of scenarios.

My personal conclusions are that, while it is important to train and experiment in these ways, it is most important that the attacks legitimately disturb tori/nage/shite's center in some fashion, and that tori/nage/shite should be trying to find ways to alter their physical relationship to uke such that uke cannot let go of tori/nage/shite without falling down or otherwise being exposed to more danger.

In the end, if you are achieving this type of training relationship, it doesn't much matter if the grab is realistic or not, or an unexpected variation or not, because the principles being practiced come out in the infinite variations of actual grabs, pushing, pulling, or even simply crushing.

Just my current thoughts. Ask me again in a few years and they may well be different. Or not.

Regards,

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-22-2006, 06:00 PM   #103
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Tarik,
I think the point you are making about controlling someone else's center through the grab/technique is a great point. In unarmed fighting methods the quickest way to someone's center is to directly contact the center (grabbing or striking the core) however when you have to worry about your opponent stabbing or cutting you, you must control their center through the armed hand you are controlling (because not controlling the armed hand will get you yourself cut or stabbed.).

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-22-2006, 06:24 PM   #104
Mark Freeman
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Meynard Ancheta wrote:
I'm just here for a spot and I just find it amusing to talk to aikido people again.
Like a superior cat playing with dumb mice kind of amusing??
Quote:
You're lucky to get this much from me.
I wouln't go that far.....
Quote:
It's not my problem that you guys don't know much.
Yes, definitely the cat and mouse type of amusing

Let us know when you've finished toying with us just in case we are too dumb to notice for ourselves.

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-22-2006, 06:31 PM   #105
Mark Freeman
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Whoops, sorry I posted the above reply before turning the page and realising you guys had moved on...

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-23-2006, 12:20 AM   #106
Leon Aman
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
there is no such thing as an unrealistic attack... anything can and usually will happen eventually... but you also learn other things by practicing this, such as balance, timing, blending etc...
Edwin- when I stated "unrealistic attack" I do not intend this word equating to " cannot or will not to happen" but I merely relate it to mean "unusual attack". Unusual because out of many attacks from behind where you can simply punch or kick, why do we choose to grab both wrist from behind (ushirou ryokatouri), where there are lots of possibilities of counter attack.

leon
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Old 02-23-2006, 05:41 AM   #107
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

To be honest, the "Dog brothers" just looks like guys in their backyard wailing at each other with small sticks.

Maybe it's just me...
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:23 AM   #108
tarik
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Tarik,
I think the point you are making about controlling someone else's center through the grab/technique is a great point. In unarmed fighting methods the quickest way to someone's center is to directly contact the center (grabbing or striking the core) however when you have to worry about your opponent stabbing or cutting you, you must control their center through the armed hand you are controlling (because not controlling the armed hand will get you yourself cut or stabbed.).
In general, I agree.. however, and I'm not saying I can do it, I have seen control over center to such a degree that it is immaterial how you are connected, merely that you are unavailable (out of reach) of the weapon.

That would not be my choice, but I've seen it done. In general terms, I don't think the average aikidoka would be very pleased at their abilitiy to handle a truly skilled knife fighter, but for the average idiot who fancies themselves a knife fighter but doesn't really train it in a formal way, they should do ok.

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:46 AM   #109
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

I don't think the average [insert anyone alive that is unarmed] would be very pleased at their abilitiy to handle a truly skilled knife fighter...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:54 AM   #110
tarik
 
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I don't think the average [insert anyone alive that is unarmed] would be very pleased at their abilitiy to handle a truly skilled knife fighter...
Yeah, those guys are SCARY.

I remember the first time I worked in a class on knife skills and really experienced how vulnerable we are. Even with dull aluminum blanks, my blood still runs cold at all the memory and it doesn't feel much better that it took me very little training time to get similar results against my partner.

It's a good experience though.. and should be done more often, perhaps.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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